Chiclana
 

What do you think about this found on todays



www.costadelaluznews.com


CHICLANA

FOREIGNERS GETTING A BAD DEAL
Chiclana’s foreign residents see the town as being lawless, with major town planning problems and a lack of basic services, according to the Partido Socialista de Andalucía, which has held recent meetings with representatives of the foreign community. The political party is demanding that the Council carry out inspections of properties offered for sale by estate agencies, and exercise greater control over the sale of illegal properties. It says most foreigners feel cheated because they have unknowingly bought houses built on land which is not zoned for construction, and have no official electricity connection, but they are still paying Rates for these properties to the town hall. The P.S.A. also suggests that a Foreign Residents Department be set up in Chiclana.


I wonder what certain posters on this forum will now say :zzz:

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ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....


i wonder how they pay their rates to the town hall if they have no official connection? surely it has to be official in order to pay for it ?

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Could it be something to do with the following statement
"Chiclana’s foreign residents see the town as being lawless :scared:

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:mad: There seems to be two Chiclana threads running ,it would be helpfull if they ran together as they have so much to offer ,for people who want to be made clear of whats happening ,with regards to properties with electric meter problems ,and illegal properties, and what is happening at the town hall,good to here things are going political, can only hope everything can get sorted out sooner rather than later.We all know why we moved to this area ,and cant understand why the council,the electricity company,and planning department ,are making things so difficult for us ,we all want to pay our dues and live in peace,and not with a constant threat over some of our heads.

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Many people that have bought in Chiclana wonder how on earth their illegal properties managed to make it through the notary and even get a mortgage.

I'll start at the basics. Land in Spain is classified as rural, urbanizable, or urbano.

Rural land does NOT allow any building to carried out, or to be supplied with electricity unless you are a farmer and can prove that you need electricity to operate the pump for your water well. I suspect this is the loophole they are now trying close.

Urbanizable is land that has been given approval to be urbanised, ie. streets built, lighting, water, sewage etc can legally be incorporated.

Urban is as it says the land has streets, lighting water and all the facilities yo would expect of an urban development.

That's the classifications out of the way. In Chiclana many of the properties were built by property developers on rural land that had been divided by a process of "Por Indiviso". Basically a large plot of land was divided into 500m2 or 1000m2 plots and you bought a share into that large plot. Some with properties already built and some just a plot on which to build your own property.

Properties bought under the Diviso system could legally be registered up until around October 2005, hence the notary registered your purchase of a share of this land and the Registro de la Propiedad registered it in your name. This does not make the property a legal property, it simply states that you own a share of a large plot of land that has subsequently been subdivided. However as I stated at the beginning only properties on urban land can legally be supplied with domestic electricity.

These things should have been made clear to you by your abogado. Good things on the horizon however if the town halls and political parties get involved. It's about time!

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Cadiz builder just for everyones info can you develop your reply a bit further ?? Can people in Urbanizable areas who have bought on plots divided using the 'horizontal divisions' be entitled to electricity ?? I have a freehold plot, legal electricity and a borehole for water....no street lighting etc on our road but there is on the main road which we feed off...it's the anomalies that confuse people.

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Thanks for your repy,surelly the notarys office new you were not just buying a piece of land for the money that was changing hands and the solicitors certainlly didnt think the purchasers were only buying land,on my street,which doesent have street lighting but does have electricity meters built into the walls of every house,except mine or my neighbours,our meters are in the ground at the front of our houses just outside our boundaries,my neighbour pays the electricity bill and we have a counter meter to pay him our understanding was this would be the case until we were urbanized,as we are on a yellow section on the plan,but could you tell me if I could get my own meter now ,thanks in advance if you can help.

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Douglas read back the previous threads on this very subject. Nothing is clear cut !!! Not in Chiclana nor anywhere else in Spain it seems. Witness the probs which some of the Costa Esuri folks are having. Without seeming to gloat, we seem to have managed to buy a legal property, which is declared on the escritura which we finally obtained form the bank on our last visit, and have a legal meter, as money is being paid to Endesa via a standing order. It is freehold, ie there is no division of land of any kind. All the houses in the cul de sac seem to have their own meters outside on the wall.
Houses are often legalised retrospectively provided they are not on rural land, though even this is not clear cut, as I recently saw a house on rural land, an old finca, that could have been rebuilt provided it did not extend beyond the existing footprint.
I was discussing this with Spanish friends from Seville who have a house in Barossa. They said that traditionaly it has been a way for municipalities to raise income by re-designating land from rural to urban, both for the fees chargeable, and for the higher council tax equivalents they could then levy.
Maybe the conflict between the need to raise income and the need to restrict development has spiraled out of control ?? Either way it is unfortunate that some people have been misled, intentionally or otherwise. It would be wonderful if someone could post a definitive opinion about the situation on here.

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Hello Poollounger it's the anomalies you speak about that make answering your question difficult without all of the information.

Division horizontal is carried out by the developer before a Notary, and before the sale of any properties.

If your plot was segregated via "Division Horizontal" and you have your own individual finca registration number, you are on land classed as urban and ready for occupation, you should have been connected directly to mains electricity as this is a minimum requirement for any dwelling to be issued with the "Cedula de Habitabilidad" (Certificate of Habitability).

When we complete any new build we have to hand this certificate over before any of the mains connections can be made to the property.

David

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Sorry to have been a bit vague in one of my paragraphs. I'm sure the notaries and solicitors knew that you were purchasing a house and land for the money that was changing hands. I was simply trying to explain the process of purchase by division, and how this is no longer accepted by the Registro de la Propiedad.

The best way to check what you bought is to examine your escritua and see what is actually declared on it. It should declare a property of a certain size, the type of property (the usual is finca urbana) a catastral finca registration number, and the size of the plot.

I can't help you with your electricity meter question as each case needs to be looked at and examined individually.

David

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Someone may be able to expand on article in paper today , this talks about an agreement between the council and unicaja to offer low cost loans to people to legalize their homes ,

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The article says they believe it could be up to 15000 houses and that cost will vary according to square metres up to 30000 euros ?

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I read that article as being loans to cover the cost of urbanisation which would also of course effectively legalise the houses.

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It is still confusing....can it be that people who have bought on Urbanisable land, but still awaiting the work which could be several years away have still bought properties that cannot be legal or legalised retrospectively which is a common Spanish practice?? I know when I bought that my agent said that 'indiviso' plots were not acceptable to building societies as there was no clear cut desciption of the actual plot. I believe mine may have been legalised retrospectively, and am curious to know why this cannot be done by others?? Incidentally was just hearing tonight about some programme featuring building in Tuscany, where the owners had to erect a temporary structure to prove that there was a building on the site that they could then get planning permission to demolish to build their new house!!

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Hi poollounger thank you for your reply,have today Sunday contacted my Spainish solicitor,he has advised me that tomorow Monday he will arrange to have a meter fitted in my absense,he says that it will be no problem,I will let everybody no how I get on ,on this site,and if everything goes ok will post the information,if not I will sue his ass.

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Its nearly a dead cert you will be suing. :scared:

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Why? I know some people have been refused a meter but by no means everyone.

I got one in February and I've heard from others who had successful applications since then.

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I am very glad for you and the others. However I think you will find if you did some research on this subject that a lot more people who have purchased new build property in the Chiclana area are finding it impossible to obtain a meter and contract.

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Believe me Mitzipurr, I've researched this subject as I was one of the people you mention!

All I'm saying is that some people have obtained meter's since February and therefore it is not the foregone conclusion it was last year that one will be unable to obtain a meter. There is hope.

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Thanks for your reply,I purchased my property in 2002 and looked again at my contract,things have changed a lot since then, solicitors have a duty to protect there clients ,after all we pay there accounts,they work for the purchaser ,Spain is a member of the EU and falls under there laws,Time will tell but the longer we do nothing about this situation the more people will suffer and worry,never realised the situation was so bad,I understand that some people think free electricity is ok, but that is a reflection on the rest of us sorry, but I would rather pay my way and live in peace,meters can be installed legally so my Chiclana solicitor has advised me today,we will now see if he can deliver,thanks again Douglas.

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Sorry, our solicitor told us a meter was no problem and would be installed within two weeks. That was two years ago and she has washed her hands of the matter. However as I said in the other thread our builder came out last week and took photos and got our bank details etc so perhaps there is hope!

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Our solicitor admitted that it was something he never used to bother about Glynis, as it had never been an issue previously. Now he always checked. The fault is not the electricity company. As CDL posted a few days ago, Endesa had begun installing temporary meters to alleviate the situation, but have been stopped by the council. The crux of the matter seems to be how one legalises one's house.

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Thought I'd add my two pennies worth to see if I can clarify anything.
Firstly land: There are 3 divisions, segregada (segregated) meaning you own the whole land, it is entirely yours and what the norm is in the UK; divisiòn horizontal (horizontal division) which is where you own an equal 50% share of the whole plot with an immediate neighbour or pro-indiviso (divided land) which is where you own a percentage of the whole, perhaps 10% but there is no clear cut definition (usually) of which 10% is yours. The first two are generally accepted as being OK for building on and are mortgageable, but pro-indiviso land is NO LONGER able to be mortgaged as the risk is too high for the banks. Any properties built on any of these types of land unless they have a licencia de primera occupación (a licence of first occupancy) are illegal as they have been built without the town halls' permission. What they do have (often) is an obra nueva (a new works) permission which states that a building can, has or will exist in the future (a pre-cursor to the building licence) and this is how most houses have been sold by the notary.
A contracted electricity meter is only provided to ANY property on the existence of this licence, unless, one has existed in the past on an old finca on the same plot, or you can make use of the loophole which Endesa are currently doing (but for how long ??)
Endesa WILL NOT provide a meter to anyone (unless they have a licence) if it means they have to upgrade their network at their own cost. Neighbour associations can apply themselves to upgrade the network and then contract meters but this can be costly and needs to be approved by the Town Hall first. Taking pictures of houses and bank details etc is an inherant part of the application process and does not mean you will get a meter as the final decision lies with Endesa.
If you think about it logically, Chiclana is years behind most of the other well developed areas of Spain and if the council can get people to pay for their own electricity network or telephone connections then when the time comes to urbanise the individual areas, this is less money they (the council) have to spend to achieve the same result.
With regards to retrospectively legalising a house, this currently can not be done. It is generally accepted that if a house has existed for 4 years (and this can be faked) then if the council has done nothing about it being illegal in that time it effectively becomes safe from fines, punishment, demolition etc. etc. but it does not make it legal as it still does nt have the licence of first occupation and thus Endesa wil not provide a contracted meter to it.
Some time ago there was talk of the council setting a stake in the ground and legalising (properly) all the houses that existed before a certain date and I guess this will happen when the areas fall in to the urban plan as they can not claim money from central government to urbanise areas that have no houses (if you get my drift) so I think that is not an issue.
A proper electricity supply is the issue and with local elections coming up soon, perhaps all of you who are residents here and find yourselves in an unfortunate position, should vote with your pen.

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Thank you very much CDL for a very informative post. I can only hope now that people on this forum who have purchased properties in Chiclana can now see the light.

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Yes CDL I concur.. a very informative post. However, can you clarify if the 'obra nueva' is acceptable for meters etc ? I had always assumed that my house was legalised retrospectively, but see now that it is listed as 'obra nueva terminada' which I assume is completed new house. There may also have been an older structure on the site so presume that is how I have a meter etc. It is so useful for others having problems to understand the keywords they need to look for when scrutinising their escrituras.

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Thanks for your reply Glynis,but if my solicitor has knowingly supplied me with an illegal house I will be taking it up with him in ,the strongest possible manner,solicitors have a duty to there clients when they practice in the EU, that is the law,and if they dont know the law they should not be practising,sorry your solicitor mislead you but please dont judge all the same,Douglas

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Well Good Luck. I don't think that they knowingly mean to sell an illegal house it is more custom and practice which has been going on for years, and years. I have just looked up my paper work and seen the house is described as "Rustica" horizontal division which according to the earlier post is illegal and yet we were given assurance after assurance that everything was in order. I suspect we are not alone here in Chiclana in that respect. I am just hoping that as we are in a yellow zone it will eventually be made legal.

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I agree with you Glynis and I suspect that between us we've used a variety of Solicitors in the area!

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I wish you the best of luck in my experince Spanish lawyers are answerable to nobody but themselves.

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Further urbanisation news , supply of water / sewage facilities planned for Rana Verde area and possibly Marquesado in the next year , this on the back of urbanisation of Bateria Colerado and proposed Veguetas , with the announcement of low cost loans from unicaja in conjunction with council to help residents pay for work seems some effort being made to progress urbanisation after many years of "it will never happen in my lifetime"

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I would of thought the whole of Pago would be 'Rustica' , on the division aspect i thought the minimum area for a building in Pago was on 1500 sq mts or more land , if you bought your house outright you would have deeds or escritura does that not give you legality ?

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I have a question for those of you living near Chiclana -

I remember travelling there a few years ago from Jerez. It was summertime and the main road down to that part of the coast was horrendous. ie, less than 5mph most of the way. I realise that this is only a seasonal problem, but I was wondering if any improvements have been made to the road since then to cope with the influx of traffic in summer (or if not, are any improvements planned)?

Thanks.

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Sorry but do you mean the road from Jerez.to Chiclana across the salt pans .or the road from the N340 to Barrosa,The main road across the salt pans is now Dual carriage all the way to the turn of at. La carattera Las lLagunas {spelling could be poor on this one}.there is a new road from the Venta Florin which takes you to Nova Santi Petri,

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Sorry - my description wasn't very clear. The road I travelled on was the N340 from Jerez, past Chiclana, and on down towards Vejer de la Frontera.

What is that road like now in summer?

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Hi guys, first time posting but love reading your comments, it keeps me up to date on what is happening down there :) My last visit was at Easter, and I noticed the new improved road from Jerez airport down to Chiclana/Barrosa. My question is this... as I rent out my property I have to give directions to guests, and in the past had told them NIV until see the signs for Chiclana/Algeciras on N340. I have been told that all the road numbers have changed, but unfortunately didn't take a note of new numbers, is it A4? E4? A48 something like that... So can any of you Chiclana locals help? Many thanks

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E5,or N340,the N340 goes through the towns and past the airport the E5 starts at Bilbao and now nearlly stretches the whole of Spain.it used to be a toll road in the south but the tolls have now been removed down here (dont know about the north).how do you get on with your renting and how long have you had a place near barrosa.

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Still busy but the new road now stretches well past Chiclana,but I dont think it is fully open yet.there is another new road open between Jerez and Algceiras much easier and faster to get to Malaga now all the best Douglas.

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Thanks for that info Douglas Jack. So the N340 is still called that? someone told me they had changed the number as they had smartened it up and were building the new bits down towards Conil... I never notice, I'm usually driving on autopilot so don't notice the road numbers or exit signs :eek: So better not do that on the E5 or I'll end up in Bilbao! Assume then that the road you hit as you come out of Jerez airport and skirt the town itself is still called NIV, or has this been changed since they've tarted that up. To answer your question, bought my place about 3 years ago and renting going OK, apart from about 10 days booked thru til mid-September. I can't wait to get down there myself for some :cool: and :beer: Cheers!

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Sadly this thread ground to a halt when it was hijacked by folk wanting to know about the road system.

I have been reading this and the Bank Loans thread started by Mitzipurr, trying to make sense of what exactly is going on with our properties in Chiclana. A notice appeared in my buzon today, rallying people to "help themselves" and to meet up regarding the electricity issue (good idea) but to cap it all, I'm informed that whether we have meters or not, if we do not have a "Certificado de Primero Ocupacion", we are deemed illegal.

It is a very strange state of affairs, as someone else has pointed out, that the Hacienda can keep 7% of purchase price, the Town Hall will happily register your property, the Escritura all seems legal and, yet, without this certificate we are deemed illegal by the Ayuntamiento and liable to be fined. In steps a Bank, offering loans to pay for such fines (note, not to pay for urbanisation - these costs are separate and based on your 2M of land).

It seems that Mitizipurr's information is correct - outside of Chiclana town and the beach areas, there are very few new properties that had permission to build and so Certificates of First Occupancy will not be included in the documents.

From another person's post, it seems the Town Hall will only catch up with us when we're due to be urbanised ( or want an electricity contract). By then, I may be pushing up the daisies or, with any luck, will be given a Certificate retrospectively, without penalities.

Have I got the picture now? Have I misunderstood anything? I will try to obtain further information from the imminent "Help Yourself" meeting. Any other information from you folk out there would also be welcome. Many thanks.

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I asked my builder about this certificate and was told by him that you didn't need it in a non urbanised area!!!!! However I did get my meter without it!

When is the meeting? Might come with you.