Re: Chiclana
 

Have a look at your p.ms. ......

Re: Chiclana
 

Hola Arco Iris and Glynis,
Re: Licencia de primera ocupacion, you might want to read the link provided by Loco in the Ayamonte thread. (I know, different ayuntamiento, but documents are the same.) Good luck, and hope your meeting is worthwhile.

Re: Chiclana
 

Many thanks C & J - crystal clear from Loco and, incidentally spanishlawyers.com which laid it all out.

:scared: Ooer! As Glynis pointed out, this way of building and selling has been the custom in these parts for decades and Spanish people don't seem to be concerned. I am trying not to be!

Will post more info as and when, in case others can be helped.

Re: Chiclana
 

Thank you Arco-Iris for your input on this matter. I have been told on good authority that any property that does not have the LFO is indeed deemed illegal and liable to a fine. What a unbelievable situation that nearly 20000 of us now find themselves in. Also what is most worrying that I have been told by urbanismo because the do not have this licence the town hall class the land they are built on as rustic. As to the old cry "oh this is Spain/Chiclana and thing are done different here" let me tell you that things are changing. I will give you a example below.

In the near future Spain as a full member will have to contribute billions of euros to the EEC instead of receiving huge amounts as they have done in the past. According to my bank Hacienda is now notified automatically if you deposit or take out more than 3000 euros in cash (not so long ago it was 12000). So I guess that is the start of the claw back and the end of the black money.

Re: Chiclana
 

Another example copied and pasted from another forum.
of how things are now changing in Spain.

"Following a meeting last week with the Hacienda, some interesting information came out regarding rental property.
Over the next few years, instead of receiving vast amounts of funds from Europe, Spain will become a net contributor to the EU.
This needs to be funded, and will be done so in a number of ways, increased taxation is one, but also by reducing the amount of black money that
is paid during the purchase of property and also that is paid as rental.
With regard to the collection of revenue due on rental properties the hacienda are implementing the following:

Increased number of Inspectors

Monitoring magazines, newspapers and websites that advertise rental properties, checking on ownership and tax ( including IVA ) paid by those owners.

Liasing with Sevillana and other suppliers, if a property is empty it wont use electricity and water.

Liasing with local Tourist boards to check on registered property.

In short, I think that the days of unregistered property, undeclared income and tax avoidance in the rental market are coming to an end.
So the best advice is, be prepared, get legal, talk to your accountant or direct with the Hacienda."

Re: Chiclana
 

Todays news says and i have to admit don't understand it all , but there is a first draft of law stating there will be no amenesty for illegal homes, the main man at the council says " those who bought an illegal house also bought the problem " may be 15000 houses , also repeats what has been the main message they are trying to get across, they will ensure the fines on illegal builds will be greater than the cost of building legally , in fact the article says if property is demolished the owner will have to pay for the cost of work, this may occur when an area is urbanised and properties are situated where new roads for example should be going or buildings erected in the green zones .
Says there were 500 legal builds in last year . perhaps someone could confirm my understanding.

Re: Chiclana
 

I was told the same , keep your account under 3000 euros and you will remain invisible .

Re: Chiclana
 

Just read on another website that with the UniCaja loan offer to help pay for legalization is an agreement by Sevilla-Endessa to supply electricity and for sanitation services to be put in place , so a meter may now be easier to come by but doesn't make you urbanised or legal, that chain of events will follow in the years to come.

Re: Chiclana
 

Could you tell us which website this came from?.thanks john

Re: Chiclana
 

surinenglish , also update on the Marbella area scandal , perhaps thats why Chiclana seems to be trying to sort illegal situation a pace .

Re: Chiclana
 

This is very serious stuff where did you read this. I presume the main man at the council is denying all responsibility for allowing them to be built in the first place?

I cannot confirm the figure of 500 legal builds in the last year but I am certain that the illegal builds constructed last year far outweigh this number.

Why should the whole sorry mess fall onto the shoulders of the innocent house buyer who has done all the right things by using a Estate Agent,Spanish Lawyer, Notary and paid 7% IVA on his purchase. Some of these illegal properties even pay IBI to the council!

Only last month I was shown a plot of land with a old finca on it. I was informed that they will be constructing 4 houses on the plot using just the one electric meter belonging to the finca. Why doesn't the council put a stop to this. What a silly queston think we all know the reason :rolleyes:??

Re: Chiclana
 

I can see this is going to run and run . And yes Iris is right, no offence to those who sidetracked us into motorway chat, but please start a new thread next time. I know I am as guilty as anyone of going off at a tangent, and that is fun at times, but lets keep this one to the point. Legal or illegal, that is the question. Whether it is all in the mind or is rooted in fact?? Again it all seems to be hearsay and conjecture. I raised the question of the Licencia de Primera etc etc with my agent when I first became aware of all these problems, and was told that is was not necessary as there had been a house on the plot previously. I am not trivialising anyone's post, but surely the fact that we cannot have a single concrete statement is proof that there is confusion, rather than malicious deceit behind it all ? It is good to have all the info if you are about to purchase, but for those of us who have already done so, what is the point of constantly worrying??? When we have a definitive clarification, and can do something to rectify the situation, if rectification is needed, then surely that is the time to mass troops and plan a line of defence, attack or whatever??

Re: Chiclana
 

I agree however if enough people post warning about the illegal builds in this area then hopefully we can save others from getting themselves in the same situation.

Re: Chiclana
 

Mitzi in my experience Mayors say whatever seems politically expedient at the time. In view of the Marbella fracas perhaps the Mayor of Chiclana thinks he will be seen as honest and tough by acknowledging the illegal builds?? How does he know the exact number?? How does anyone know without a comprehensive survey ?? Here in London our Mr Livingstone often trumpets facts which personal experience dictates are otherwise.
Talk of a new law denying any amnesty and levying hefty fines on illegal builds (see Mourinho's post) in green areas and future roadways seems a sensible way forward. Imagine if people began to build in the midst of Chiclana's lovely pine forests ? Considering coming over there permanently and indulging in property refurbishment I was shown a lovely old finca built on agricultural land. It was derelict, but the agent was adamant that it could be restored in any configuration provided the aerial pics were the same, ie we never strayed outside the footprint. I have rain checked this idea. In the adjacent field was a new build which I was assured was illegal.
I reiterate that again there is so much hearsay. Has anyone knowledge of a single property being demolished?? How come even people with acknowledged illegal properties are getting meters installed??
I think the hidden agenda may be...and this is conjecture...that they want to scare people who will then pay hefty fines to have their poperty legalised thus raising revenue for the council.
As to deterring future buyers.. well that is not a necessarily bad thing for us if it halts the pace of development..but I fear most people will adopt a head in the sand approach in the face of rising prices and buy regardless.
I look forward to Glynis and Iris reporting back.
May I end on a tangent?? Paying for coffee yesterday with a friend who knows these things, I was juggling Euro and Sterling coins frustratedly, and remarked that I welcomed Britain converting to the Euro. His reaction was that it was unlikely to happen, as Italy would probabaly have a severe economic crisis resulting in their withdrawal. Wonder how this will impinge on Spain and other countries?? A new thread please!!

Re: Chiclana
 

[QUOTE=poollounger]
I reiterate that again there is so much hearsay. Has anyone knowledge of a single property being demolished?? How come even people with acknowledged illegal properties are getting meters installed??
I think the hidden agenda may be...and this is conjecture...that they want to scare people who will then pay hefty fines to have their poperty legalised thus raising revenue for the council.



Cannot agree more, hence the need for as much info as possible.....forewarned is forearmed, to my mind. And to take a leaf out of the Ayamonte buyers' book, if enough people affected can get at the facts, that's a lot of political clout to raise serious objections should the situation be hazardous for property owners.

Re: Chiclana
 

Poollounger regarding the number of illegal new builds. Its quite easy to come to a figure. Check all the licences to build over the last five years against the urban plan. Then take photographs by helicopter over the whole area. Compare them with the plan and bingo you have your number. Why should people have to pay fines to this council who have allowed and are still allowing illegal building to continue unabated. At the bottom of our road a lovely forest that use to be home to many animals and birds has been destroyed. On it is being built a number of houses on plots less than 400 meters.It does not take Sherlock Homes to come to the conclusion that they are totally illegal but the town hall does nothing to stop them. To the question of why they are installing electric meters to properties without the LFO I have no idea because according to the law (what a joke) in Spain without the LFO the utility companies are not allowed to supply services such as water, sewage, electric lifts etc. To give you a example.We went to visit some friends on the Costa del Sol a couple of weeks ago who had bought a new apartment and the lifts were not working. When we asked why they said that they community was waiting for the LFO and the lift company was not allowed to connect them up without this licence.
I think you may be correct about the council making people pay fines why else would the Mayor make a deal with Unijaca for such a vast amount.
My concern is not only to stop the development of this area because it will ruin it but also to warn others not to buy here until the council sort this serious problem out and if they have enough knowledge hopefully they will not stick there heads in the sand.
Re demolishing of property. I truly hope that this never happens to anyone but only last week in the Sur the front page featured the demolition of six houses in Manilva that had been built on green land.

Re: Chiclana
 

[QUOTE=Arco-Iris]
I could not agree more with you Arco-Iris. You know the saying "United we stand divided we fall"

Re: Chiclana
 

When buying any new property you should always make sure that the builder has satisfied his obligations with the ayuntamiento and demand to have a "Licencia de Primera Ocupacion". You should not purchase any new property without this document.

The builder has obligations with certain government departments apart from the property which you are purchasing the surrounding area must also meet minimum requirements before the Licencia de Primera Ocupacion can be issued. Street lighting, footpaths, mains sewerage etc. It is not simply the house it is also the environment it is in. In some cases you may not even be able to empadronar with the ayuntamiento.

As builders ourselves, when we build a new property we are entitled to constructors water and electricity which includes a meter. This is where a lot of the cofussion seems to be comming from. Once a property is completed and the new owners receive their Licencia de Primera Ocupacion the constructors supply which in most cases is only 180 volts must be cut off and a new 240 volt residential meter installed. It sounds to me as if the builders are not declaring the property and are simply leaving the builders supply installed meters and all, which is why some of you have metres.

What amazes me is that your abogados failed to ask for a Licencia de Primera ocupacion.

Re: Chiclana
 

I was wondering if you could go into more detail about the "Licencia de primera ocupacion" please? Who issues that, is it the builders or the town hall, is it something we, as buyers have to pick up or should it be part of the completion process? I have just e-mailed my solicitor to make sure we are getting one on our completion, but I need to sound knowledgeable!
Thanks

Re: Chiclana
 

NicCol. Here is a link to the legal site that lists what you need, who obtains it, etc. Would that we had known about this right at the beginning.

http://www.spainlawyer.com/guialegal...04010107030000

Re: Chiclana
 

Hmm, me too!

Re: Chiclana
 

NicCol in what area are you buying in? If Chiclana then very few builders will even obtain a building licence! I am utterly amazed at the following statement on the link kindly supplied by Arco-Iris "Only when the certificates of completion of the building and the certificate of occupancy have been issued, can the purchase deed be duly finalized and notarised. The developer shall obtain and pay them."
I would be very interested in this case how nearly 20000 houses without these licences have been sold through a notario and IVA of 7% has been paid on these properties to Hacienda.

Re: Chiclana
 

Thanks a lot, I will print it off and try and digest it all!

Re: Chiclana
 

It was in yesterdays Diario de Cadiz , today it mentions the Popular Party are making political play , voicing loudly their anger that the Socialists have let the illegal building continue so long.

Re: Chiclana
 

Well I can't see that any of us out in the Campa would get one. There are no street lights etc around us and the father out you are surely the worse it will be? What we really need is someone from the Town Hall to address the meeting tomorrow. Who is actually organising it, does anyone know?

Re: Chiclana
 

I am intrigued.....what is the situation when one lives in a non urbanised area with a pump and borehole ? We have speed bumps in the dirt road off which our cul de sac leads, some lighting, and mains electricity. If the LdP is a requisite in every case and the Notary is responsible for witnessing and ensuring all documentation is accurate, then surely he should be the one querying the absence of a LdP ?? I certainly do not seem to have one, have been assured by the agent that is is not required as there was a previous property on the site, and we have mains electricity and standing orders being paid to Endesa. In every way it seems to me that Chiclana is an exception to the rule.

Re: Chiclana
 

Further news.

A friend of a friend has been refused a meter in Rana Verde. Why? Surely as this is shortly due for urbanisation there should be nothing stopping it.

Secondly a friend in Pago saw that her road had a channel with a black pipe put in early one morning. When she enquired of a Spanish neighbour she was informed that this was to provide illegal electricity for two new houses being built further down the road. So as we all know it is still going on.

Re: Chiclana
 

I am buying in Pago. What confuses me, is how can they charge you IVA and then turn round and say its illegal?

Re: Chiclana
 

Another question - My solicitor says he is waiting for the deeds and then he is taking them for registration. Does anyone know exactly what this means and does it look hopeful?

Re: Chiclana
 

It doesn't matter if there was an existing building previously on the site. If it is not the one you have now or you have carried out major restoration building work you will require a Licencia de Primera Ocupacion.

The notary witnesses the fact that there is a "Declaracion de Obra Nueva" a new building has been declared and the tax man should receive his 7%, not that it is fit for the purpose it is inteded for or that it has been issued a Licencia de Primera Ocupacion by the ayuntamiento. Simply that a new building exists.

The law is quite clear. A licencia de primera ocupacion is a requirement for any new building or a building which has had an increase in volume or a building that has undergone substantial modifications.

I have asked our architect to prepare an article regarding the Licencia de Primera Ocupacion you can read it here: Licencia de Pimera Ocupacion

Re: Chiclana
 

Thanks Cadiz Builders for clear info and web links. All safely saved and printed as ammunition for the time we may need to jump into action. When that will be is anyone's guess for those like us, who live in an area where urbanisation plans are in the far distant future and who have a long-standing Endesa contract, a landline, water from a well and a pozo negro or septic tank.

The "Help Yourself" meeting was held in a bar and some people there were out for their evening drink and carried on their conversations, so it was very difficult to hear the speakers, even with a microphone. A member of the Partido Popular was the main speaker, who has allied herself with those unfortunate people who are without electricity and have no hope of getting it without their Licence of First Occupation (LFO). The main thrust of the meeting was to form an Association to make representations to the Ayuntamiento about their predicament and Endesa's seemingly selective approach to connecting illegal properties.

Questions were asked about the LFO, with accusations of scare-mongering and rebuttals from property owners that, licence or no licence, they were legal. It all got quite noisy and contentious and too much for me, quite frankly, and I left. Maybe another forum user, with better hearing and more stamina, attended this meeting and can add more useful comments than I can.

A Spanish friend attended and I commented to her that there didn't seem to be many Spanish people at the meeting and, surely, they are just as affected,
her reply was "well, yes they are, but they just don't care".

Re: Chiclana
 

That is the million dollar question that I would also like the answer too!!

Re: Chiclana
 

Do you mean the escitura for the property. If so then all the so called illegal houses will have this document.

Re: Chiclana
 

That figures there fellow countrymen who have built these illegal properties certainly do not care.

Re: Chiclana
 

Thanks Cadizbuilder. So am I correct in assuming that my house may be illegal, because I may not have an LdP ?? I do seem to have a legal elex supply, but of course this may be based on an existing previous meter. Assuming the worse case scenario, will they at some point show up demanding to see the LdP ?? And if I cannot produce it will they then bulldoze the house? Or will they asess, qualify and perhaps demand alterations and amendments, and who will be held liable?? My builder has an office in town with a window prominently displaying his new properties. And what happens to the mortgage? Apart from those still struggling to get a legal elex supply, surely it's a case of let sleeping dogs lie until, as Iris says, we are rallied into action. We are all grateful for your input, but one still hears contradictory information. I recall having a prolonged conversation with a couple involved in property mainetnance re their own house. In order to register for the councl tax she had been advised to prepare a detailed survey of their property and had paid out to do this. Armed with all the requisite documentation she had presented herself at the town hall where she had been told that it was all unneccessary and she shouldn't have bothered! I shall raise the LdP issue with my solicitor, but plan to keep my head down for the moment. One has to take precautions, but there is sometimes no point in worrying about something until it happens...