Ethos83

It's called history. I don't support history on an inertia basis, but I do support the notion of carrying on great cultural traditions. I'm proud of the glorious history of Britain and our great democratic tradition under the banner of a constitutional monarchy and an unwritten constitution. Yes, it hasn't been perfect but I like and appreciate some of the colourful character provided by our cultural traditions and as such I'm not keen to rid Britain of the monarchy and replace it with a bland bureaucratic state. It's bad enough how bland we've become and the monarchy is the strongest bulwark against it.

Ethos83

The US is one of the most staunchly democratic states and also one of the most religious. And it's one of the best places to live.

seven seas

If you were that convinced of the bullcrap you're spouting, you wouldn't still be here.

I find it amazing how you have come to a conclusion so quickly, having perhaps 2% of the facts at your disposal when it comes to that case. If I had so little faith in the police and courts, I wouldn't be here.

I seem to remember some Windsor's dogs trying to eat a child - about 4 years ago. Does that count? Or did I make that up?
A certain price still goes to a famous annual arms fair greasing the wheels for UK arms traders. Does that count?

As for the ridiculous claim that the rape of half the world is seriously in doubt... I don't think there is anyone left with that silly position. Last time I checked, Enoch Powell was dead and that leaves ... Jim Davidson?

Your assertions are getting you into positions that are increasingly ridiculous.

seven seas

look up zmag.org.

seven seas

Written for the Daily Express?
The assertions are not remotely linked and do not follow on from each other. Throwign ina few great phrases like 'democratic tradition' and 'colourful character' does not disguise the fact that you offer no proof of how the monarchy acts as a bulwark against anything- apart from the death of useless souvenir stalls.

Ethos83

*pats you on the head*

Having a good evening, were we? There's an Egyptian fellow I'd like to introduce you to - he was trying to persuade me that the US government deliberately blew up the World Trade Centre on 9-11 because it was a cheaper way to get rid of the building's asbestos problem than doing a proper overhaul.

The Dean

Oh, you want 9/11 theories?

http://physics911.net/

Norm_uk

So countries like France (where they live longer on average than we do) have no sense of history because they went all Republic? China seems to be doing ok since it got rid of it's monarchy (well, major civil war and Mao aside)...they still have the oldest continuous civillisation despite no inbred monarch sitting on the throne.

You seem to be suggesting that Britons cannot be proud, patriotic or have a sense of history without placing the monarchy at the centre of it all. I challenge that notion entirely and whilst I do not deny our history has been the history of kings for better or worse we should be maturing and looking at more democratic alternatives - even an elected monarch of some kind would be a step in the right direction.

We are bland because we teach our children to be bland, to be mediocre and to care more about fashions, dull television and chasing material things than culture, community, pride and education (as opposed to schooling). A monarchy isn't needed to have a unique cultural identity - I think the French or Russians would probably agree with me on that...

It's normally listed in the top ten for sure...but that's mostly because it is so rich not because it's religious...and if you care to look at the individual states you'll find the top 25 are often the least religious.

According to the UN Human Development Report 2009 of the top 20 places to live seven are monarchies (and then only in the sense of figureheads with declining power). All the countries listed have strong secular traditions with many having total seperation of religion from State (read the US Constitution or France's). The top fives places to live are all free from monarchs (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...shes-25th.html). Britain is a crap place to live, the people are divided by ethnic and religious lines, crime is high, traffic is bad, there is little sense of community and it is politically fridgid.

We don't even know how much the Monarchy costs us since they are immune to the Freedom of Information Act.

It's very simply...even if we elect a "monarch" it would be better. As long as the people of Britain are not sovereign we cannot say we are truly a modern, democratic nation.


N.

Ethos83

All your opinions are subjective, just as mine are, I suppose. You seem to care so much about this particular topic, which is rather odd. Does the monarchy bother you that much?

I'm all for the Queen, the CoE, changing of the guards, Big Ben, Scottish shooting moors, Cockney cab drivers, cream scones and strawberries at Wimbledon. They are part of our cultural heritage and I don't wish to seem them disappear. It doesn't mean that the UK can't evolve along with history and I welcome the curry houses and the friendly Indian/Pakistani running the local corner shop as an addition to the nation's cultural heritage, but evolution does not mean tossing everything out with the bathwater the way some people would like to. Maoist China destroyed 90% of the country's heritage in just one generation and a visit to China today shows you inanely bland, overbuilt concrete jungles of cities in the quest of modernism. Is that progression to something better?

I generally approve of each place doing its own bit. Britain is unique because we have the monarchy. Other places are unique because they are different from Britain. I have no desire to see us start resembling other nations, no matter how prosperous or wonderful (in your mind) the European republics may appear.

Besides, some of your comments are rather overboard. Britain is religiously divided? Hmm...well, there is a bit of a Muslim problem but that's a problem facing Germany, France (and it's far worse than the UK), the Netherlands and Sweden. As Christianity goes the UK is not a religiously divided nation except for a few wackos in Northern Ireland.

Other European countries can be just as crap as the UK. Ever seen France's council estates outside Paris and the big cities? Immigration problems are rife across Europe. I envy the German's railroads, but not their food. UK certainly has big problems but I am not bailing out of the UK for the long run. The British public has enough good people and I have faith in them and the country's ability to pull through to a better future.

As for the US - lived there. Have to say it is probably the easiest place in the world to live unless you want top quality mass transportation. The best food, the most comfortable houses, the best salaries, the best organised government, both on a local and national scale, the friendliest people, some of the best educated and intelligent in the world (which include both church going people as well as atheists) and the prettiest women. It's hard not to be impressed by the US after you've spent some time there - but that doesn't mean I want the UK to become the 51st state.

Ethos83

The DT is upfront about the cost of the monarchy. It works out to about 62 pence per taxpayer.

Ethos83

I had a professor who once said:

'The French are a proudly republican people who have never quite gotten over not having a monarchy. The English are a monarchist people who have never quite gotten over not having a republic.'

Probably sums it up pretty well.

Norm_uk

According to official figures it's 62pence...but that doesn't take into account the 100m spent on security for example. The actual figures are probably closer to one pound eighty per person in the UK.

Even if we take the official figures only the monarchy costs 100 times more than the Irish presidency and ten times as much as it's German counterpart yet is also totally unaccountable since it is except from the Freedom of Information laws. They don't have to submit their books to the National Audit and happily blur the line between what is public and private property...we're not getting much value for money compared to our neighbours.

N.

Norm_uk

Your professer seems to have ignored all the Welsh, Irish and Scottish people in the British Isles and hasn't been paying too much attention to the polls. In the last ten years MORI have done a number and the current pro-republic stance is around 20% with around 70% of people thinking Britain will be a Republic within 50 years.

Not to mention most people think that the current political system as a whole needs reforming...and the monarchy often stands in front of that happening.

N.

Ethos83

This is becoming tedious. Statistics are statistics which as we both know means it's easily manipulated. Lamblasting an American professor for saying English rather than British is a cheap shot. Even your quoted 20% anti monarchy shows that 80% of the population is comfortable with current monarchy status, and contrary to what you say reform of the monarchy isn't number 1 when it comes to government reform. Parliamentary reform is.

We can make a bet on the future of the monarchy. I see you fifty quid that the monarchy will be here in 2066 to celebrate the 1,000 anniversary of the birth of modern British state. Charles' reign will be brief, and William is the spitting image of his grandmother and will be just as neutral, polite and popular.

I guarantee you the UK taxpayer does not pay as money for security as the US spends on security of its president and vice president and all heads of state who visit the US.

But you know what, sure, let's get rid of the monarchy because it cost too much money. Let's revoke all funding for English heritage because it cost too much money. Let's close down our museums because we have to spend money on it. The greenbelts? Standing in the way of modern development. Off with them.The countryside? Pave it.

seven seas

How to get away from facing an uncomfortable question that challenges your worldview #4: Respond like a condescending ****wit and talk about something totally unconnected.

And when faced with statistics that you can't counter with cliches about pork pies, warm beer or strawberries and cream, just pretend you are starting to find this debate tedious.

Go on then, run away.