Having it all?
 

Hi all,

Whilst travelling with my muslim indian colleague we had some very interesting chats as you do. Just to paint the picture she is a strict muslim indian married with one kid in her mid 30's, whereas I'm a single english atheist in my nearly early 30's.

So one of the conversations we had started when talking about Angelina Jolie, she happened to say she thought she was a home wrecker, to which I said I thought that was a bit harsh and that any western relationship has other pressures and there is not the obligation to stay together that perhaps a traditional indian girl would feel, then she went into a bit of a rant about how Ange tempted Brad away etc etc. ( at this point I decided to hold back on some of my exploits) anyway the converstaion went on to why I'm single (I get this on a regular basis here from my Indian counterparts as it would seem I am some sort of freak to be at my age and never married). So her advice to me (not that I was asking for any) was that I need to stop putting myself and my career first as you really can't have it all. Which I do agree with to some level, but when I explained I would choose my career first she kind of lost all hope with me.

So I was just wondering who agrees, can women have it all- the job, the husband, the kids etc or can you only ever have one or two of those things and be good and happy at/with them? She felt to keep her husband she must always put him first and do whatever he wants even if she doesn't want to ( including bedroom duties), and I agree if a guys not getting it at home he will develop a wondering eye but is it really as black and white as that- a guy gets what he wants or he leaves/strays? So for a successful relationship her view is that she must make all the compromises and she gets her happiness from him being happy? Obviously, very different cultures but it did make me wonder if in the west we have moved away from traditional values at the cost of high divorce rates and general selfishness? Should we be returning to 1950's england where the women are home makers and servants to their men?

Any thoughts?

xxx

Re: Having it all?
 

My only thought on reading this is that I should have married an Indian Muslim girl.

Re: Having it all?
 

I dunno Millhouse, I'm not sure just how fun she is, sounded a bit like lay back and think of England stuff only, no swinging from the chandeliers or anything, and when we spoke about oral sex I don't think I've seen anyone ever look so mortified! Part of my trip included shopping in sex stores (remember lingerie designer) and I was almost embarrassed having to explain what every single toy was for- I'm sure she now thinks I'm some sort of hussy! Ok, Ok, maybe I am but certainly got reminded at how open minded I am compared to some of the more innocent among us.

Re: Having it all?
 

What's oral sex?:confused:

Re: Having it all?
 

Oh, ok. I take it back... I don't want her to lay there and think of Bangalore, and the constant home cooking would be annoying after a while.

Now to answer your question, can woman have it all... I'm afraid to say that in life we make compromises - some women call pull it off, most can't. Kids and Career is very tough.

Re: Having it all?
 

It's what you and I do when the wife is away ... just talk about it.

Re: Having it all?
 

I've never once talked about it with you. I think you must have me confused with someone else.

Re: Having it all?
 

It's 2010. Why is the same question not asked of men?
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Re: Having it all?
 

We are still not able to give birth?

Re: Having it all?
 

I didn't say with each other!

Re: Having it all?
 

agree, and more's the pity, it's a girl asking the question...

MM, xx

Re: Having it all?
 

Women want to have their cake, eat it and not absorb the calories.

Re: Having it all?
 

Doesn't mean you can't look after and bring up a child.
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Re: Having it all?
 

that is true. But, trust me, I couldn't (and nor could most men).

Re: Having it all?
 

Men can't have their career, kids, hobbies, friends and wife.

We are not built for this monogamy thing, or maybe this model of society where we are expected to fulfill so many roles at once.

Re: Having it all?
 

and the fact that most men get pressured into settling down, its women who want it all, men are quite happy to sow their oats and live a bachelors life with offspring strewn across the world ( OK OK not all men). And to be fair its not mens roles that have changed in the last 50 years, they have always gone off towork and had the little wifey at home but now that women have a career as well its women that struggle to fit it all in.

Re: Having it all?
 

Are you saying that men are rubbish then?
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Re: Having it all?
 

I don't agree with that at all. Men are not pressured into 'settling down'. That's a daft fallacy.

Men's roles have changed. They are now far more central to the family and that can only be a good thing. I think you'll find that many men prefer it that way and are quite happy to be equal providers with their wives.
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Re: Having it all?
 

I think most of us could, but not nearly as well as most women do (emphasis on both occurrences of "most").

Nature and evolution have prepared women for childrearing, and men for work--its only in the last hundred years or so that opportunities have arisen for women to work exclusively of homemaking. So any shift is going to be rough and difficult, because we're looking at an incredibly small timespan during which this change is happening compared with the whole of human history.

Re: Having it all?
 

I meant humans when I said 'we'.

Re: Having it all?
 

Seriously??!!

Why can men not look after their children as well as a woman?

Women have always worked in addition to child-rearing. If you go back in time, women of child rearing ages (apart from the wealthy) always worked with the older relatives and other siblings looking after younger children. For most people there was no choice.
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Re: Having it all?
 

Are we pressured into settling down? If I can work out how to do it, I'll set up a poll on that one.

"Equal providers": what does that mean? How many families have a wife and husband who are equal in what they provide? Very, very few, I think. And why this striving for equality--there never can be real equality because of our biological, natural and evolutionary differences, let alone the societal and familial ones.

Re: Having it all?
 

Equality - of course we are equal! That doesn't mean that men and woman aren't different. Equal and idential have never meant the same things.

Surprisingly, in many couples the woman earns at much or more than a man, but we don't feel the need to make a song and dance of it all the time. Please don't use the UAE as an example as this town is frequently like the 1950's.

Re: Having it all?
 

I didn't say men can't, I said (and I emphasised) that MOST can't as well as MOST women DO. Maternal instinct has got to count for something.

And I also made the point about women working EXCLUSIVELY OF HOMEMAKING. Yes, many women in history have worked, but not full-time in the way that is happening now.

Re: Having it all?
 

There are subtle differences- like the fact that women's hearing is way better than men's. So they can always bust your balls about using that tone of voice. (:huh:


Oh yeah, and they can tell when a baby is hungry, cold or in pain when it cries. To me it's just a baby crying.

I have to go through the whole cycle- check nappy for turd, stick bottle in mouth, check for any dingos chewing on the baby, and by step three , I will have found the reason.

Re: Having it all?
 

Meow- Ok maybe I am going to extremes but I do believe men would stay single if they thought they could get away with it- maybe I've been single too long and known too many players but thats the way I see it. And yes mens roles have changed somewhat but nowhere near as much as womens.

I actually think my brother looks after his kids better than his wife, but she is the primary carer as he is the higher salary earner and she has never been interested in a career as such so it works for them. But I have other friends who have given up their careers to stay at home with the kids as its not been worth going back to work with childcare costs etc so their careers have effectively been put on hold or are over.

And as for the post coming from a woman- I'm asking is it possible to have a career, kids, a family and be good at your job, look after your kids and have a happy husband and to behappy yourself? My colleague says no, I would like to think yes but think actually its probably not possible to have all 3, its not that I'm some antifeminist but I think perhaps our expectations have been made too high to have become unacheivable.

Re: Having it all?
 

I think we're straying into semantics here.

So what do you mean when you refer to "equal"? The same income? The same amount of time available? The same influences? The same amount of influence?

And how much is "many"? Are you seriously saying that going-on for 50% of couples the wife's income is more than the man's? C'mon...
And I have NEVER had a conversation with another man about his wife's income compared to his, even wrinklies like me don't see it as an issue. (And don't come back with the argument that they'd be too embarrassed, that won't wash.) (Yeah, keep UAE out of it, it ain't reality.)

Re: Having it all?
 

There is a whole world of difference between being equally valid and important people and having equal incomes etc.

Since when has many meant 50%? Many means quite a few. I certainly know of many couples where the wife earns at least as much as her partner/husband. The percentages vary depending to a certain extent where people live and it is more prevalent in cities generally, London and the home counties. Bear in mind I get to know the truth about people's finances, so I have an advantage here, as most of us don't talk about our incomes even to close friends.

At least we are agreed that the UAE isn't reality. I am still surprised to be asked 'Do you work?' in some social situations as opposed to 'What do you do?' which is what you get in London.

Re: Having it all?
 

of course you can have it all...but it's up to the individual woman how much she will actually enjoy it...
not all women want it all, there are plenty that are happy with 'just' being a mum, or there are those that find their jobs so fullfilling that that is enough for them to thrive on...good on them.
I find the pressure that women put on other women to 'have it all' really annoying.

Re: Having it all?
 

Unachievable as in : be part of the system, earn, produce, spend, drive the wheels of the economy, spend, consume., earn some more and spend it.

Earn and work, be part of the system. Spend it on fun, be part of the system. You HAVE to have fun in one of the following ways... blah blah blah
consume this to have fun, or one of the following options...

You can have it all, you deserve to have it all, this is what a full meaningful life is. Otherwise you're a loser. Be a loser in one of the following ways.... blah blah blah


Actually they want to squeeze us into a different-shaped box that we can't fit into. And the box won't break, it us and our lives that getr mangled beyond recognition. Then the machine moves on to the next shiny happy person. As logn as we all think we're the ones who've failed, we wnot blame the system.

Re: Having it all?
 

Unacheiveable as in you get a degree, you have a career, you meet prince charming, you get married, you have kids, you juggle everything and look fabulous and make homemade cakes for the kids school fete and you give your husband a blowjob every night because your also wonderful at keeping him happy as well as you are in fact superwoman.

Your right Sevenseas that perhaps its just trying to put a label on everything, but personally i find the pressures for a woman to settle down are still very high, my mum asks me when I am going to give her grandchildren, my aunts tell me its such a waste that I'm single ( that makes christmas day fun) and now my work colleagues have me down as some kind of reject, but I'm where I am as I love my job- I mean I really really love what I do. I'm happy with what I have and look at my friends who are juggling everything and at how tired they are or at the stress they are under or how they feel exhausted from the kids and the husband and everything else and I wonder how they do it and are they right to try and do it all.

There are only so many hours in the day.

Re: Having it all?
 

That's when you have to talk to the woman, remember her name, offer her tea afterwards and that sort of thing.

Has no place in any decent marriage ;)

N.

Re: Having it all?
 

Superwoman? No, that'd be superhuman! In the scenario in the first paragraph, he can make the cakes for the fete, your home help does the laundry and cleaning and your husband gives you a masage/oral sex. Having everything, is not the same as working yourself into an early grave by doing everything.

Ignore people with outdated views who put you down for being unmarried. Anyone that really loves and cares about you just wants to see you being happy and fulfilled and that doesn't have to include being married. Having a life partner is great if that makes your life better, but it doesn't always and it's about time society accepted arrangements other than the conventional set up.

Re: Having it all?
 

God, that sounds horrendous. I just thought it was where I put my ...

Re: Having it all?
 

It's "aural"...As in they get it in the ear...

Re: Having it all?
 

It all went down with the Berlin Wall...

Re: Having it all?
 

It's interesting, I've spoken to women who say they feel pressured to have careers as well. Pressure is a part of life. Men are pressured to be tough providers who can deal with anything. Relatives and friends are well meaning but often just annoying - that's part of life too and isn't going to change. If you had five children who were all well turned out and behaved someone would still be telling you how to raise them better...everyone else always knows best.

I feel we shouldn't pressure women to do anything except have children sometimes so we don't vanish as a race, nation or species! The whole getting married thing and "settling down" is optional...but as I age I do feel family is important but that family doesn't have to be nuclear and even hetrosexual in order to be healthy, productive and "moral".

I also feel biology is important and really don't see the point of life without trying to be prosperous and successfully reproduce. That's just me though - I want immortality via genetics (already did it once and it's just fantastic) - each to their own.:)

N.

Re: Having it all?
 

I say it is unattainable and designed to pressurise people into stayign onto that treadmill.

Meow- people with outdated views aren't that easy to ignore. They outnumber us by about 1000000 to 1.

And the dear old aunt who pities you for not being married really thinks it is in your best interests and would be thrilled if you did get married.

"MY best interests? What do you know about my interests?"
Institutionalised - by Suicidal Tendencies

Re: Having it all?
 

err. No.

Re: Having it all?
 

You forgot the mistress