should have been burned at the stake for apostasy!

Not really - a bit low brow for my tastes.

N.

Indeed, Islamic text states women should be modest in dress. A modest dress standard in our culture today might mean a skirt not too far above the knee, or not showing too much cleavage.

In the Arabian desert cultures of the 6th century when the koran was written it seems to mean sack cloth from head to toe...but let's not forget all cultures are equal and have valid contributions to make - that's why we learn about the Taliban's contributions to Particle Physics and the Saudi's contributions to Critical Theory, Aerodynamics and the Emancipation of women

N.

Religious freedoms and rights end where the security and social norms of the native culture begin. Britain is not Saudi and we don't want it to be. No one forced people to move to Britain and we have been far more accommodating even to the point of extending civic nationality to people. If they cannot adopt and respect the culture that made Britain attractive to move to in the first place they should not be allowed to have passports and should consider moving somewhere else, where their priority of putting women in sack cloth no matter the weather can be expressed away from us.

I'd ban all face coverings in public buildings for security reasons and give the police and security the right to demand it be removed to check identity. I would also allow store keepers to have the right to refuse entry to their premises to people wearing a full face covering...including burkas.

Kilts are not originally Scottish - and doesn't represent a repressive, woman hating culture. They are actually better for men's health than most trousers and should be encouraged all over Britain if you ask me. And they haven't voted to leave or stay yet...let's wait and see.

Brits in the UAE can only stay if they work and have to pay (themselves or via their employer) for everything including medical, housing and schooling. Muslims in Britain can get exactly the same rights and benefits and people whose ancestors have been in Britain for millennia without contributing for generations to the culture, safety and prosperity of the nation, and can indeed even openly call for the downfall of the culture and establishment in Britain. And if the locals don't like that they are called racists and intolerant...because when white people (and non-white people who actually assimilate) want to preserve their national identity it's racist. For everyone else, from Mexico to the UAE and from India to China it's just sensible immigration and assimilation policy.

Odd world we live in.

N.

Now that I do agree with. I'd like to see more men in kilts.

So because a Manx man converted to Islam two centuries ago (and publically called for a global caliphate - by today's standards he would be classed as an extremist) we have to adapt to a small portion of recent Muslim immigrants or converts who do not respect our culture, our heritage, our religion (or lack of it) or our laws?

Why must we commit cultural suicide in our own lands despite having a more inventive and productive culture than any Muslim country for at least four centuries? In many Muslim states it's a crime to leave Islam isn't it? You want to moan at us for debating the Burka when things like that still happen around the world, along with the stonings, persecution of religious minorities, child marriage etc...double standards and a lack of priorities methinks.

And let's not forget most Muslim women don't even wear the Burka and never will.

N.

Just as an Emirati might see a woman in a strapless dress in the mall as an afront to his or her culture and traditions I, as an Englishman see the Burka as an affront to my culture, history and traditions. We have completely different standards of modesty, women's freedoms and traditions. As with here if someone doesn't like our ways don't go to Britain. If I hated Arab Muslim culture to the point I felt I could not follow their laws and customs in their own lands I would not go to their countries.

And I don't call for a total ban - only the right to insist it is removed by police and public officials and the right to deny entry to business and public buildings if it is not removed...for security reasons.

How that is enforced and what the punishments might be for refusal is another matter entirely though...one I have not given much thought to.

N.

Indeed, but going to work nearly naked and covering 98% of the whole body and claiming it's modest are at the extremes of the spectrum.

Just as going about naked in non-appropriate places will bring consequences even in tolerant and open cultures, going about completely covered (which is a security risk) should also bring consequences.

There is also the view that since human communication is 70% non-verbal not being able to see someone's face clearly hinders interaction. These women become things not people. It's not the same as simply wearing a veil or a scarf.

N.

The facebook page doesn't help any kind of articulate debate about this issue for sure. Then again, can we reasonably expect ANY facebook page to be a good place to go to get the best and latest critical ideas on British national identity, extremism in religion, modest clothing or anything else?

It does seem to me that some think that because idiots want something (like a Burka Ban) but cannot articulate well because they are idiots that the entire argument is suddenly invalid and anyone who might have a more reasoned view is the same as the aforementioned idiots.

N.

This is absolutely true - I have had dealings here with women only showing their eyes through the slit and it's very difficult to understand them, and not simply because English is not their first language, it's down to not being able to see their facial expressions.

They have managed to ban hoodies in a lot of places in the UK....... and the reason for that was scallies hiding their identity, so how in a time of extremists and terrorists can a ninja suit which does exactly the same be considered as any different.

Also, that ban on hoodies is shit. I like hoodies they are comfy, warm and have been a mainstay of the skate / snowboard 'culture' for decades..... So whats the difference?

I love hoodies too. I used to work in Lymington in the New Forest, it's full of old folk, rich folk and is quite posh. Very pleasant too. I never wore a suit to work and in the winter would wear jeans, t-shirt, hoody, jacket and cap.

The terrified looks I got from old ladies were great, especially when doing something nice like holding the door or picking something up for them. Bless.

I love the way folk judge. Last week in heathrow I was walking through wearing baggy camo combats, a body warmer and a beanie pulled down low. The looks I got when I stopped off at the champagne bar and order a cheeky glass of Marlborough and 6 oysters were awesome.

Heh. Classic. Still, we're all guilty of it to a certain extent I reckon but it does feel nice to be smug deep down.

Are you *really*, genuinely affronted by it, or are you saying that for the purpose of making your point? If the latter, it's a perfectly valid discussion technique, but it's as well to be clear about motives.

Personally, I don't see anything to be affronted about. If women want to wear the burqa, it's their choice. Why should I feel affronted? UK law permits freedom of personal choice in such matters, so what's the problem? I do think that full-face coverings should be prohibited for certain occupations, but that's a separate issue.

I always feel a bit uneasy when opposition to anything foreign is couched in terms of "British culture", because it seems to overlook the rather important fact that Britain has the original mongrel culture. Thanks to thousands of years of immigration, just about everything that is considered traditionally British was actually imported from overseas.