Novocastrian

Actually it's even worse than that. Leaving the EU while remaining in the EEA would result in the UK being forced to follow EU rules having abrogated any input in their formulation. That is real lack of sovereignty.

Lion in Winter

I'm struggling to identify:

1. The concrete, definable, measurable downsides of staying in
2. What precisely would be better in concrete, definable, measurable terms if we leave

These are real questions and clear answers are not being provided much by anyone that I can see. It's almost all posturing and tendentious arguments.

Novocastrian

Me too.

For me the answers are 1. None and 2. Nothing.

spouse of scouse

I'm with you. This will be my first vote in the UK (I'm not yet a UK permanent resident/citizen, but was accepted onto the Electoral Register due to being a Commonwealth citizen). I'd like to make an informed choice, one devoid of personalities and 'the sky is falling' scenarios.

I've done a lot of reading, but can't find a clear pathway to a decisive answer. Like everyone else, I just want what's best for the UK overall. Ps Scouse is voting out.

rebeccajo

I don't either. Especially since the referendum is being held a few weeks before the Republican Convention, and nearly five months before the US general election.

Giantaxe

Agreed. It's simply the reverse of the situation here where "socialized medicine' is the bogeyman that prevents reasonable debate about healthcare. I've read a few articles about TTIP and the NHS and I just don't see a rational concern. Great "scare tactic" though.

verystormy

Sorry, yes, was thinking of EFTA. Though it makes little difference as it is clear from the out camp that it will be to fully leave - hence all the debate about trade.

verystormy

First, those figures are completely at odds with the ONS and EU reported figures, which sorry, but I have yet to read anything The Economist that doesn't read like a fairy story.

Yes, unless we operate to WTO, we would need a trade deal. If we operate to WTO we see UK goods hit with 4%. However, EU goods in would also be hit - note the biggest single EU country deficit the UK has to an EU country is Germany. Guess which country tends to get its way and is the most self protecting in the EU......

Giantaxe

The Economist's numbers came from the IMF, as noted in the link I provided. Link to back up your claims?

7% of Germany's exports go to the UK. Again, a trade deficit isn't the important critieria when judging the relative importance of trade. Germany may have a lot of clout in the EU, but the reality is that all members would have to approve a trade deal with the UK and many of them have no reason to be favourable to the UK.

Editha

Personally, I find the developments in Europe very worrying. There are so many echoes of the nineteen-thirties: economic malaise, a former imperial power flexing its muscles, the rise of far-right parties, disillusionment with liberal democracy, and the aggravation of ethnic tensions and nationalism.

The EU has struggled to contain all these pressures, but it has done a hell of a lot better than nations did individually in the twenties and thirties, and in that respect has justified the ideals of its founders.

I don't think this is the time for Great Britain to be turning its back on Europe, and to do so would be a betrayal of our history and heritage. I agree absolutely with Churchill's grandson Nicholas Soames that it would be a betrayal of what his grandfather achieved.

The financial argument is boring and irrelevant and already lost by the Brexiters. Everybody with expertise has predicted financial loss on leaving the EU, from the OECD and the IMF, to the Bank of England. What is the status of the Brexiters arguments: the back-of-the envelope calculations by a UKIP-supporting retired accountant from Bexhill-on-Sea?

Lion in Winter

This alone makes me want to stay in, and keep the EU together.

BritInParis

That may be what the Brexiteers would like but since there would be no mandate to leave the EEA as well and as all the major parties are still pro-Europe we would remain within the EEA and more than likely rejoin EFTA so trade with the EU would remain largely unaffected but so would freedom of movement. In essence nothing of any great importance would change except in regard to how the Common Agricultural Policy and Common Fisheries Policy affects British farmers and fishermen.

Perth

+1

spouse of scouse

I must admit, the fact that UKIP are so strongly for Brexit makes me worry, I'm loathe to get into bed with them in any way, shape or form.

Editha

It isn't just Farage. Putin, ISIS and Rupert Murdoch also support Brexit.


And Katie Hopkins.