Upcoming Referendum

Old Apr 27th 2016, 2:00 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post

The advantages, or otherwise, of EU membership can certainly be debated but the whole loss of sovereignty thing is a bit of an emotive red herring.
Actually it's even worse than that. Leaving the EU while remaining in the EEA would result in the UK being forced to follow EU rules having abrogated any input in their formulation. That is real lack of sovereignty.
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 2:21 pm
  #32  
 
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

Originally Posted by Novocastrian View Post
Actually it's even worse than that. Leaving the EU while remaining in the EEA would result in the UK being forced to follow EU rules having abrogated any input in their formulation. That is real lack of sovereignty.
I'm struggling to identify:

1. The concrete, definable, measurable downsides of staying in
2. What precisely would be better in concrete, definable, measurable terms if we leave

These are real questions and clear answers are not being provided much by anyone that I can see. It's almost all posturing and tendentious arguments.
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 2:37 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
I'm struggling to identify:

1. The concrete, definable, measurable downsides of staying in
2. What precisely would be better in concrete, definable, measurable terms if we leave

These are real questions and clear answers are not being provided much by anyone that I can see. It's almost all posturing and tendentious arguments.
Me too.

For me the answers are 1. None and 2. Nothing.
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 2:39 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
I'm struggling to identify:

1. The concrete, definable, measurable downsides of staying in
2. What precisely would be better in concrete, definable, measurable terms if we leave

These are real questions and clear answers are not being provided much by anyone that I can see. It's almost all posturing and tendentious arguments.
I'm with you. This will be my first vote in the UK (I'm not yet a UK permanent resident/citizen, but was accepted onto the Electoral Register due to being a Commonwealth citizen). I'd like to make an informed choice, one devoid of personalities and 'the sky is falling' scenarios.

I've done a lot of reading, but can't find a clear pathway to a decisive answer. Like everyone else, I just want what's best for the UK overall. Ps Scouse is voting out.
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 2:42 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

Originally Posted by Perth View Post
Really? How so? I don't see the connection.
I don't either. Especially since the referendum is being held a few weeks before the Republican Convention, and nearly five months before the US general election.
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 3:12 pm
  #36  
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

Originally Posted by Editha View Post
Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership - NHS Confederation

The NHS view appears to be that negotiations so far, to protect the NHS are going smoothly.

Personally, I have some qualms about TTIP, but I don't see any reason to regard it as a threat to the NHS. That is just scaremongering.
Agreed. It's simply the reverse of the situation here where "socialized medicine' is the bogeyman that prevents reasonable debate about healthcare. I've read a few articles about TTIP and the NHS and I just don't see a rational concern. Great "scare tactic" though.

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Old Apr 27th 2016, 4:08 pm
  #37  
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

Originally Posted by BritInParis View Post
We joined the European Community in 1974 and signed the Maastricht Treaty on 7 February 1992 which came into force on 1 November 1993.

The EEA Agreement wasn't signed until 2 May 1992 and it came into force on 1 January 1994.

I suspect you're thinking of EFTA which the UK was a member of from 1960 until 1973 when we joined the EC.
Sorry, yes, was thinking of EFTA. Though it makes little difference as it is clear from the out camp that it will be to fully leave - hence all the debate about trade.
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 4:19 pm
  #38  
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

Originally Posted by Giantaxe View Post
The Rotterdam effect affects imports as well as exports and cannot explain away the large discrepancy in percentage of exports in each direction. According to The Economist's numbers (which I trust more than most), 51.4% of UK exports go to the EU, just 6.6% of the EU's exports go to the UK. The fact that the UK has a trade deficit to the EU is essentially moot when judging the relative importance of each other for trade. Additionally, it is individual countries within the EU that would have to vote in favour of any new trade agreement with a post-Brexit UK. Only one country - Ireland, which presumably would continue to have "special arrangements" with the UK anyway - sends more than 10% of its exports to the UK.



I disagree given the fact that it is individual EU countries that would have to vote to approve any trade deal with the UK.
First, those figures are completely at odds with the ONS and EU reported figures, which sorry, but I have yet to read anything The Economist that doesn't read like a fairy story.

Yes, unless we operate to WTO, we would need a trade deal. If we operate to WTO we see UK goods hit with 4%. However, EU goods in would also be hit - note the biggest single EU country deficit the UK has to an EU country is Germany. Guess which country tends to get its way and is the most self protecting in the EU......
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 4:23 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

Originally Posted by verystormy View Post
First, those figures are completely at odds with the ONS and EU reported figures, which sorry, but I have yet to read anything The Economist that doesn't read like a fairy story.
The Economist's numbers came from the IMF, as noted in the link I provided. Link to back up your claims?

Originally Posted by verystormy View Post
Yes, unless we operate to WTO, we would need a trade deal. If we operate to WTO we see UK goods hit with 4%. However, EU goods in would also be hit - note the biggest single EU country deficit the UK has to an EU country is Germany. Guess which country tends to get its way and is the most self protecting in the EU......
7% of Germany's exports go to the UK. Again, a trade deficit isn't the important critieria when judging the relative importance of trade. Germany may have a lot of clout in the EU, but the reality is that all members would have to approve a trade deal with the UK and many of them have no reason to be favourable to the UK.

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Old Apr 27th 2016, 5:37 pm
  #40  
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

Personally, I find the developments in Europe very worrying. There are so many echoes of the nineteen-thirties: economic malaise, a former imperial power flexing its muscles, the rise of far-right parties, disillusionment with liberal democracy, and the aggravation of ethnic tensions and nationalism.

The EU has struggled to contain all these pressures, but it has done a hell of a lot better than nations did individually in the twenties and thirties, and in that respect has justified the ideals of its founders.

I don't think this is the time for Great Britain to be turning its back on Europe, and to do so would be a betrayal of our history and heritage. I agree absolutely with Churchill's grandson Nicholas Soames that it would be a betrayal of what his grandfather achieved.

The financial argument is boring and irrelevant and already lost by the Brexiters. Everybody with expertise has predicted financial loss on leaving the EU, from the OECD and the IMF, to the Bank of England. What is the status of the Brexiters arguments: the back-of-the envelope calculations by a UKIP-supporting retired accountant from Bexhill-on-Sea?

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Old Apr 27th 2016, 6:47 pm
  #41  
 
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

Originally Posted by Editha View Post
Personally, I find the developments in Europe very worrying. There are so many echoes of the nineteen-thirties: economic malaise, a former imperial power flexing its muscles, the rise of far-right parties, disillusionment with liberal democracy, and the aggravation of ethnic tensions and nationalism.

The EU has struggled to contain all these pressures, but it has done a hell of a lot better than nations did individually in the twenties and thirties, and in that respect has justified the ideals of its founders.

I don't think this is the time for Great Britain to be turning its back on Europe, and to do so would be a betrayal of our history and heritage. I agree absolutely with Churchill's grandson Nicholas Soames that it would be a betrayal of what his grandfather achieved.

The financial argument is boring and irrelevant and already lost by the Brexiters. Everybody with expertise has predicted financial loss on leaving the EU, from the OECD and the IMF, to the Bank of England. What is the status of the Brexiters arguments: the back-of-the envelope calculations by a UKIP-supporting retired accountant from Bexhill-on-Sea?
This alone makes me want to stay in, and keep the EU together.
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Old Apr 27th 2016, 7:15 pm
  #42  
 
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

Originally Posted by verystormy View Post
Sorry, yes, was thinking of EFTA. Though it makes little difference as it is clear from the out camp that it will be to fully leave - hence all the debate about trade.
That may be what the Brexiteers would like but since there would be no mandate to leave the EEA as well and as all the major parties are still pro-Europe we would remain within the EEA and more than likely rejoin EFTA so trade with the EU would remain largely unaffected but so would freedom of movement. In essence nothing of any great importance would change except in regard to how the Common Agricultural Policy and Common Fisheries Policy affects British farmers and fishermen.
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Old Apr 28th 2016, 12:07 am
  #43  
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
This alone makes me want to stay in, and keep the EU together.
+1
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Old Apr 28th 2016, 3:58 pm
  #44  
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

I must admit, the fact that UKIP are so strongly for Brexit makes me worry, I'm loathe to get into bed with them in any way, shape or form.
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Old Apr 28th 2016, 5:32 pm
  #45  
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Default Re: Upcoming Referendum

It isn't just Farage. Putin, ISIS and Rupert Murdoch also support Brexit.


And Katie Hopkins.
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