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Re: UK Migration has to stop
Enoch Powel was so correct. As is David Cameron on the stopping of the immigrants.
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Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by themajor
(Post 11673347)
Enoch Powel was so correct. As is David Cameron on the stopping of the immigrants.
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Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Steve&Clare
(Post 11673378)
I can't tell whether you are a dickhead or a troll.
However we are all entitled to give our views. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by themajor
(Post 11673403)
The beauty of a forum is that it is International. It is available for people to give honest and open OPPINIONS. These oppinions may or may not agree with the general consensus.
However we are all entitled to give our views. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Editha
(Post 11670951)
True. I broke my foot last October and for the next few months had to pay regular visits to the fracture clinic. In the waiting room they had the doctors' names up on the board. OH and I passed the time by guessing the nationalities of the doctors from their surnames.
The one who treated me was a Croat or a Serb I think, but sadly not as good looking as Goran Višnjić. A lot of immigrant nurses are actively invited to come to work in the understaffed NHS... |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Steve&Clare
(Post 11673262)
It does make me laugh, before I left the UK in 2005, most of the doctors I ever went to in Bristol were Indian, because they had come to the UK to receive world class training whilst receiving less than top tier wages. Without them the NHS would be stuffed.
Look around London and you will find very few white Brits doing the "menial" tasks like sweeping the streets or driving cabs. Britain would be lost without the influx of immigrants to do the shitty jobs that over entitled Brits can't be bothered to do whilst they can still scrounge off the dole. This isn't the age of empire any more, we can't go goose stepping round the globe, plundering Johnny foreigner at the point of a bayonet. This sort of racism and xenophobia went out of fashion with Bernard Manning, Jim Davidson and the 70's. Another related conundrum, which I have difficulty coming to terms with is, why do we give foreign aid to countries, then poach the best trained people from some of those countries to leave their country. No objection to foreign aid per se, but it does seem to be a bit of a contradiction if the object of foreign aid is to improve the standard of living in those countries it is given to. A bit of topic, sorry. On topic. Infrastructure, it just isn't up to speed with the growing population, regardless of race, colour, religion or ability to contribute. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser
(Post 11673617)
Whilst I cannot disagree with that premise, I find it hard to understand why we cannot supply enough nursing staff from within. Especially when you consider the amount of 'A' levels children are leaving school with these days and the increase in students attending university.
Another related conundrum, which I have difficulty coming to terms with is, why do we give foreign aid to countries, then poach the best trained people from some of those countries to leave their country. No objection to foreign aid per se, but it does seem to be a bit of a contradiction if the object of foreign aid is to improve the standard of living in those countries it is given to. A bit of topic, sorry. On topic. Infrastructure, it just isn't up to speed with the growing population, regardless of race, colour, religion or ability to contribute. I won't be surprised if in five years time our infrastructure has deteriorated again, but I won't be blaming immigration. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Editha
(Post 11673758)
It seems to me that the British infrastructure is in considerably better shape now than it was in 1997, by which time the Conservative neglect of our transport, health and education services had reached crisis point.
I won't be surprised if in five years time our infrastructure has deteriorated again, but I won't be blaming immigration. Of course, the buck stops at the politicians. Now if you had said "I won't blame the immigrants", that would have been fine. However, it's uncontrolled, ill planned immigration that will cause problems unless the infrastructure catches up. Transport, schools, hospitals, water, sewage and, of course, housing etc. Mass immigration: Report warns of strain on Britain’s infrastructure caused by population growth - Home News - UK - The Independent and in depth..... http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/LargescaleImmigration.pdf |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser
(Post 11673779)
.
Of course, the buck stops at the politicians. Now if you had said "I won't blame the immigrants", that would have been fine. However, it's uncontrolled, ill planned immigration that will cause problems unless the infrastructure catches up. Transport, schools, hospitals, water, sewage and, of course, housing etc. Mass immigration: Report warns of strain on Britain’s infrastructure caused by population growth - Home News - UK - The Independent and in depth..... http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/LargescaleImmigration.pdf In other words you say something is happening, that Civitas only think might happen in the future. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Editha
(Post 11673917)
You said that our infrastructure isn't up to speed with the growing population. The Civitas report you have linked to states that immigration could put a strain on living standards.
In other words you say something is happening, that Civitas only think might happen in the future. Google UK housing crisis. Google NHS crisis/school overcrowding/road and transport over crowding/ water shortage and so on. All caused in no small part by a badly planned immigration policy. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser
(Post 11673971)
The report was August 2014.
Google UK housing crisis. Google NHS crisis/school overcrowding/road and transport over crowding/ water shortage and so on. All caused in no small part by a badly planned immigration policy. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Steve&Clare
(Post 11675127)
The housing crisis isn't because of immigration, it is because the Tories have sold off all the council housing.
It has almost nothing to do with immigration. The areas of the country where there are housing shortages do not correlate to the areas where there are large immigration populations. The possible exception is London, but to suggest that immigration is bad for London is to fundamentally misunderstand how the city functions. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Steve&Clare
(Post 11675127)
The housing crisis isn't because of immigration, it is because the Tories have sold off all the council housing.
Immigration has had an impact on the level of wages paid to the average UK worker if only due to supply and demand. Other causes of this include the pressure of off-shoring, decline (allowing zero hours contracts in et al) and lack of union power in terms of strike action and wage bargaining. As a result, it is now hard for the average worker to move forward financially in life based upon work alone. As the well-compensated jobs in manufacturing and even financial services have largely disappeared for the masses - chicken and egg?, if there were a better supply of workers there might be better availability of jobs though - and the UK has gravitated much more towards being a consumer economy, actual consumption becomes far more dependent upon the assumption of debt and the preparedness of consumers to spend under an illusion of affluence created by their home equity. It is in government's interest - quite aside from their self-interest, in such conditions, to support house prices as much as they are able and restrictive planning rules and complete lack of adequate actual house building admirably support this 'effort', as does a net immigration level upwards of twice :unsure: the level of actual house building over ten years. Indeed the conversion of council housing to ownership has created real problems where the resultant supply has not been replaced for target families. This crisis 'condition' has been made worse by the level of public funds directed towards housing benefit at a time that overall public expenditure is under extreme pressure meaning that expenditure somewhere else seemingly has to go where public borrowing is not considered an option. We do need to bear in mind though that if (BOE) interest rates were around 'normal' levels at 4-5%, there would be no housing crisis but then there would be a (worse) debt crisis and housing price and house building further collapse, to say the very least. Reality is a sorry state of affairs. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by knighstrike
(Post 11671373)
Good thing only a few of them have these anti-immigrant sentiments or else they'll be pushing out all the British descendants back to the UK. Hahahhahaha...
Originally Posted by Pistolpete2
(Post 11675308)
Nothing has changed from my views expressed in my previous post on this thread, HOWEVER, there are some realities in the UK economy that have a bearing on house prices and the housing 'crisis'.
Immigration has had an impact on the level of wages paid to the average UK worker if only due to supply and demand. Other causes of this include the pressure of off-shoring, decline (allowing zero hours contracts in et al) and lack of union power in terms of strike action and wage bargaining. As a result, it is now hard for the average worker to move forward financially in life based upon work alone. As the well-compensated jobs in manufacturing and even financial services have largely disappeared for the masses and the UK has gravitated much more towards being a consumer economy, actual consumption becomes far more dependent upon the assumption of debt and the preparedness of consumers to spend under an illusion of affluence created by their home equity. It is in government's interest - quite aside from their self-interest, in such conditions, to support house prices as much as they are able and restrictive planning rules and complete lack of adequate actual house building admirably support this 'effort', as does a net immigration level upwards of twice :unsure: the level of actual house building over ten years. Indeed the conversion of council housing to ownership has created real problems where the resultant supply has not been replaced for target families. This crisis 'condition' has been made worse by the level of public funds directed towards housing benefit at a time that overall public expenditure is under extreme pressure meaning that expenditure somewhere else seemingly has to go where public borrowing is not considered an option. We do need to bear in mind though that if (BOE) interest rates were around 'normal' levels at 4-5%, there would be no housing crisis but then there would be a (worse) debt crisis and housing price and house building further collapse, to say the very least. Reality is a sorry state of affairs. I don't quite follow your final paragraph? |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
In reality, apart from one or two Major cities there is not as such a housing shortage. There are new housing estates going up in Yorshire, Lincolnshire and leicestershire that I know about. The prices are way way below the market generated prices. For example in Market Rasen a 3 bed house with all mod cons at only £150,000-00 two bed considerably less. Also new apartments.
Well done the Govt for allowing these huge building plans to go ahead. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Shard
(Post 11675322)
Good point on wage compression.
I don't quite follow your final paragraph? Public finances would be less diverted towards housing benefit and could be more directed towards provision of social housing programmes IF a government were that way inclined. Normalised interest rates would put an awful lot of mortgages under water though and this could create a new crisis, particularly if it further impacted bank lending. We've been there before, of course. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by themajor
(Post 11675333)
In reality, apart from one or two Major cities there is not as such a housing shortage. There are new housing estates going up in Yorshire, Lincolnshire and leicestershire that I know about. The prices are way way below the market generated prices. For example in Market Rasen a 3 bed house with all mod cons at only £150,000-00 two bed considerably less. Also new apartments.
Well done the Govt for allowing these huge building plans to go ahead. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Shard
(Post 11675339)
One or two new housing developments in Yorkshire etc does not mean there is no housing shortage. All the political parties agree that the nation needs 200,000+ new homes per year (at present) and the actual construction total has been a quarter of that. Affordable homes in far flung places are great if there are jobs there, but generally, there aren't. Hence the need to build in or near major cities.
The local ASDA, Sainsbury's and Morrisons will be happy, but that is it. I know it's not easy but there is an overall concept that has worked elsewhere. Stimulate a well-educated and diverse local workforce by ensuring that there are a good range of strong educational establishments that produce well-rounded graduates to meet a carefully pre-determined need. Provide incentives for target businesses. They will come. In addition, it raises the estimation of a community in the eyes of more discerning potential future resident and they too will come to enhance the 'gene' pool (excuse me!) and so on. There are lots of businesses that simply don't want to carry the overall costs - in terms of rent and salary levels - that are associated with operating within the Home Counties. They will be only too happy to operate deep in the provinces if they have the resources to hand and logistics is not an issue. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Steve&Clare
(Post 11675127)
The housing crisis isn't because of immigration, it is because the Tories have sold off all the council housing.
If the population increases by 'x' then the housing stock has to increase pro rata. It hasn't, and to go all the way back to the Thatcher years as your primary excuse for the housing crisis is way too simplistic. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Pistolpete2
(Post 11675336)
I think that if interest rates were normalised, the whole gambit of buy-to-letters, second-homers and home ownership being the only game in town for former savers would be fundamentally altered. In addition, we are seeing mortgage applications fail even at current interest levels so the increase would choke off an awful lot of demand.
Public finances would be less diverted towards housing benefit and could be more directed towards provision of social housing programmes IF a government were that way inclined. Normalised interest rates would put an awful lot of mortgages under water though and this could create a new crisis, particularly if it further impacted bank lending. We've been there before, of course. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Shard
(Post 11675380)
Difficult to say. Higher rates would indeed impact affordability, but would also dampen investment. Housing benefit and housing associations seem a good route to social housing to me.
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Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser
(Post 11675365)
So, if the people who bought their house under right to buy sold their house back to the council, then the council could reduce the waiting lists by renting it out to others. Brilliant !!. Now where do the people who sold their house back to the council live?
If the population increases by 'x' then the housing stock has to increase pro rata. It hasn't, and to go all the way back to the Thatcher years as your primary excuse for the housing crisis is way too simplistic. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Editha
(Post 11675291)
Agreed. The housing crisis has been created entirely by Thatcher's housing policies. When she came to power there was no housing shortage and enough houses were being built each year to cope with additional demand. Since she came to power, the supply of new houses has never met demand, and the crisis has been building year by year.
It has almost nothing to do with immigration. The areas of the country where there are housing shortages do not correlate to the areas where there are large immigration populations. The possible exception is London, but to suggest that immigration is bad for London is to fundamentally misunderstand how the city functions. Trying to get my son back into a local good school is near impossible. High immigration? Not in these areas...it's purely due to government selling off land to private builders building more family homes placing even more demand on already stretched services. They are still trying to do it with one of the schools in my preferred location but this time with the actual school playgrounds. Thankfully the parents have successfully boycotted it for the time being. Nothing to do with immigration.. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Editha
(Post 11675487)
It is you who is being simplistic. The effect of Thatcher's 'reforms' was that new council house building, which had been tens of thousands annually, dried up to a trickle. The private sector failed to compensate with commensurate growth (a failure of Thatcher's scheme that was apparent right from the start).
So let's be simplistic. Too many people, not enough housing. Simples. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Fantastic!! I read this thread title and wondered if I was going to read post after post of 'blame it on the migrants'.
Gawd what a relief! It becomes tedious to make them the whipping boys. ...............and it was Thatcher who destroyed affordable rentals, as she destroyed so many other things, and instilled the value of greed and self interest. Pleasant woman. May she RIP's. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Editha
(Post 11675487)
It is you who is being simplistic. The effect of Thatcher's 'reforms' was that new council house building, which had been tens of thousands annually, dried up to a trickle. The private sector failed to compensate with commensurate growth (a failure of Thatcher's scheme that was apparent right from the start).
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Re: UK Migration has to stop
25 years of Conservative, Labour and Coalition governments have failed to build anything like the number of houses - whether private or social - to keep up with demand. NIMBYism and treating your home as a retirement fund has had a far greater ill effect than Thatcher by this stage.
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Re: UK Migration has to stop
She left office 25 years ago. Get over it. Since then we've had, Tory, labour and coalition governments who haven't made any attempt to reverse the policy. It's those same governments that have encouraged unstainable immigration. To say that there is less social housing and not admit that encouraging more people into the country, people who probably would need that type of housing to get on their feet, is not adding to the housing crisis, defies belief.
Sort the infrastructure out first, or at least have ongoing plans to do so, before implementing a SENSIBLE controlled immigration policy. (posted before I saw Brit in Paris post - sorry ) |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by BritInParis
(Post 11675802)
25 years of Conservative, Labour and Coalition governments have failed to build anything like the number of houses - whether private or social - to keep up with demand. NIMBYism and treating your home as a retirement fund has had a far greater ill effect than Thatcher by this stage.
And now we have a government whose first time buyer schemes will merely do the same thing absent supply side policies. In fact, if they go ahead with giving renters of housing association properties the right to buy, they will reduce supply even more. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Giantaxe
(Post 11675829)
Thatcher did one thing right and that was to remove the deductibility of mortgage interest, a deduction that inevitably had pushed up house prices in the face of other policies that reduced the supply of new housing.
And now we have a government whose first time buyer schemes will merely do the same thing absent supply side policies. In fact, if they go ahead with giving renters of housing association properties the right to buy, they will reduce supply even more. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser
(Post 11675842)
No, it will move one house from the public sector and place it in the private sector. The number of houses will still be the same, and more importantly the demand for housing will still be the same, regardless.
And right-to-buy might reduce incentives to build anew, given the likelihood that new property will be sold off on the cheap. In the 1980s new council builds “pretty much disappeared†after right-to-buy was introduced, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, a think-tank. Housing associations claim that being forced to sell assets under the Tory plan will blunt their incentives to build, too. The right to buy… votes | The Economist |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser
(Post 11675842)
No, it will move one house from the public sector and place it in the private sector. The number of houses will still be the same, and more importantly the demand for housing will still be the same, regardless.
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Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Shard
(Post 11676067)
It will reduce the supply of 'affordable' housing, causing further housing grief for those who cannot afford market rates.
As for housing associations not being able or willing to invest in more housing because of right to buy, I don't know. It would be interesting to see a detailed pros and cons analysis to see what ROI would be the best option for further investment. Granted Thatcher should have allowed councils to be able to invest a larger percentage from the original right to buy policy, however, we've drifted far away from the OPs post. If you accepted that their has been an 'affordable' housing crisis since the Thatcher era, then it does not make any sense to add to the 'housing grief' by increasing the population. Sure they might add to the economy, sure ( I hope ) one day the infrastructure will catch up, but for now many, many people will suffer due to inadequate forethought. I'd talk about transportation overcrowding, but I'm sure Beeching would be the scapegoat. :) |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser
(Post 11676895)
So tell me, where would the people who bought the house through 'right to buy' live if the property remained 'affordable' housing?
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Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Shard
(Post 11676928)
The point about affordable housing is that it is a layer of accessible housing for those that are on low income. A good example would be a young family on low income who cannot afford or qualify for a mortgage, they live in the affordable housing for several years until the income progression (or other circumstances) are such that they are able to purchase a property. At that point they affordable housing becomes vacant again and available to another family of reduced means. Granted that some people never have the means to move on, but that is all the more the case for expanding supply rather than reducing it.
I understand the point about affordable housing. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Gross immigration to the UK has been running at around half a million a year for the past 10-15 years, with net at a quarter of a million pa.
The gross figure has an impact on the culture of the UK - for good and for bad. The net figure has an impact on wages and accommodation costs - both for the bad (with no great impact on jobs re lump of labour fallacy). If you look at a country like Germany that has not (until very recently) experienced high property and rent inflation, you can see that the population number has remained static over the past 20+ years, whilst the UK has increased by several million. If we had not had the several million net increase, the issues of housing prices and rents in desirable areas would be far lower. I'm not sure it is the job of local councils to build houses for immigrants to live subsidized lives. As long as councils have to focus on need, many immigrants will be needier than the local populace. Pointing at high net immigration as one of the demand-side problems is not xenophobic blaming of immigrants, it is just pointing at one of the larger drivers of the problem (other demand-side ones are increased longevity and social changes such as divorce and the desire to live alone). The "doing the jobs locals won't do" argument is the same as the Mexican's in the US - the reason locals won't do those jobs is precisely because employers can get foreigners (legal or illegal) to do the work for such low pay. If employers didn't have a raft of illegals (US) or eastern Europeans (UK & willing to under-house themselves for a few years) they would have to pay more to attract labor and a head of lettuce would cost 20 cents more. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
I don't understand why people get bent out of shape with the concept of the local population not wanting to do low-skilled jobs.
The majority of any local workforce is usually more "skilled" than a migrant if by no other credential than language. They are usually more "skilled" because whatever education they do have is the local norm. Low skilled work is normally left to those locals who are school leavers. Most school leavers are under achievers and that's not a habit they are likely to break as long as they are warm, dry and fed. Either by their parents or by society. Being out on the street with nobody to fall back on but yourself is life's biggest motivator. A migrant is often one of those people. If they don't work, they don't eat. So they will take anything. I don't know of any nation with a modern recorded history of migration that hasn't seen the same phenomenon. Chinese came to the US in the late 1800's and worked on the railroads. Irish, Germans and Italians came to the US in the early 1900's and cleaned houses, swept streets, worked on the docks or whatever else they could get. They needed to eat. It's not just about the locals not being willing to DO low skilled work. They can't compete with someone who comes in and is happy to take the job. Instead of taking it on begrudgingly. It's about education vs. motivation. If the 'layabouts' had even a basic education, their education and place in the local society would naturally give them preference over the migrant. But they chose not to be motivated. So the hungry migrant wins. It's right there in all the history books for anyone to see. It's nothing new or unique to the UK. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser
(Post 11676895)
I'd talk about transportation overcrowding, but I'm sure Beeching would be the scapegoat. :)
Similarly, it wouldn't be making Beeching a scapegoat to say that some of his rail line closures are now both regretted and irreversible. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Originally Posted by Giantaxe
(Post 11676983)
It's hardly making Thatcher a scapegoat to say that a direct consequence of her policies was a collapse in the building of social housing.
Similarly, it wouldn't be making Beeching a scapegoat to say that some of his rail line closures are now both regretted and irreversible. |
Re: UK Migration has to stop
Always easier to find a scapegoat to blame, like immigrants, than examine facts isn't it?
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