Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
Jun 2nd 2003 | 8:08 pm
#76
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Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
Marie Lewis wrote:
> Can anyone explain to me why split infinitives are acceptable
> grammatically in the USA but not in the UK?
They're acceptable anywhere that doesn't use Latin.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Latest photos: Maldives, Dubai and Vietnam
> Can anyone explain to me why split infinitives are acceptable
> grammatically in the USA but not in the UK?
They're acceptable anywhere that doesn't use Latin.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Latest photos: Maldives, Dubai and Vietnam
Jun 2nd 2003 | 11:09 pm
#77
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Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
In article , Miguel Cruz
writes
>Marie Lewis wrote:
>> Can anyone explain to me why split infinitives are acceptable
>> grammatically in the USA but not in the UK?
>They're acceptable anywhere that doesn't use Latin.
>miguel
Sorry? As far as I am aware we do not "use Latin" in the UK, but a
split infinitive is certainly a grammatical error.
--
Marie Lewis
writes
>Marie Lewis wrote:
>> Can anyone explain to me why split infinitives are acceptable
>> grammatically in the USA but not in the UK?
>They're acceptable anywhere that doesn't use Latin.
>miguel
Sorry? As far as I am aware we do not "use Latin" in the UK, but a
split infinitive is certainly a grammatical error.
--
Marie Lewis
Jun 2nd 2003 | 11:24 pm
#78
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Posts: n/a
Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 12:09:18 +0100, Marie Lewis
wrote:
>In article , Miguel Cruz
> writes
>>Marie Lewis wrote:
>>> Can anyone explain to me why split infinitives are acceptable
>>> grammatically in the USA but not in the UK?
>>They're acceptable anywhere that doesn't use Latin.
>>miguel
>Sorry? As far as I am aware we do not "use Latin" in the UK, but a
>split infinitive is certainly a grammatical error.
I don't think you'll find that much support for that view even in the
UK amoungst the relevant experts. I believeFowler is happy with
them... and on a more travel related side, so is Bill Bryson...
Jim.
wrote:
>In article , Miguel Cruz
> writes
>>Marie Lewis wrote:
>>> Can anyone explain to me why split infinitives are acceptable
>>> grammatically in the USA but not in the UK?
>>They're acceptable anywhere that doesn't use Latin.
>>miguel
>Sorry? As far as I am aware we do not "use Latin" in the UK, but a
>split infinitive is certainly a grammatical error.
I don't think you'll find that much support for that view even in the
UK amoungst the relevant experts. I believeFowler is happy with
them... and on a more travel related side, so is Bill Bryson...
Jim.
Jun 2nd 2003 | 11:45 pm
#79
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
In article ,
Marie Lewis wrote:
> In article , Miguel Cruz
> writes
> >Marie Lewis wrote:
> >> Can anyone explain to me why split infinitives are acceptable
> >> grammatically in the USA but not in the UK?
> >
> >They're acceptable anywhere that doesn't use Latin.
> >
> >miguel
>
> Sorry? As far as I am aware we do not "use Latin" in the UK, but a
> split infinitive is certainly a grammatical error.
> New Oxford Dictionary of English recently admitted that "in standard English
> the principle of allowing split infinitives is broadly accepted as both
> normal and useful" (August, 1998), there are nevertheless plenty of people
> who consider it unacceptable.
Behind the times ??
jay
Tue, Jun 3, 2003
mailto:[email protected]
--
Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."
Marie Lewis wrote:
> In article , Miguel Cruz
> writes
> >Marie Lewis wrote:
> >> Can anyone explain to me why split infinitives are acceptable
> >> grammatically in the USA but not in the UK?
> >
> >They're acceptable anywhere that doesn't use Latin.
> >
> >miguel
>
> Sorry? As far as I am aware we do not "use Latin" in the UK, but a
> split infinitive is certainly a grammatical error.
> New Oxford Dictionary of English recently admitted that "in standard English
> the principle of allowing split infinitives is broadly accepted as both
> normal and useful" (August, 1998), there are nevertheless plenty of people
> who consider it unacceptable.
Behind the times ??
jay
Tue, Jun 3, 2003
mailto:[email protected]
--
Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."
Jun 2nd 2003 | 11:54 pm
#80
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Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
Miguel Cruz wrote:
>
> greg byshenk wrote:
> > That was never my experience when living in the US. Most common was the
> > cashier who had no idea of how to make change, and had to wait until you
> > gave her/him the amount that s/he could punch into the register. I tend
> > to spend my coins, and frequently would give the cashier (for example) USD
> > 5.07 for a charge of 4.82. About 25% of the time I would get a baffled
> > look in response, followed by astonishment after they punched the numbers
> > into the register and discovered the point of the exercise. Occasionally I
> > had to tell the cashier, "just punch it in and then it will make sense --
> > really".
>
> The other day I made a purchase of $1.10. I didn't have any singles so I
> offered $10.10 (a $10 and a dime). The cashier accidentally punched in that
> I'd offered $20.10 and started freaking out and looking for the manager. I
> said "just give me $9 back; trust me, it'll be fine" but she wasn't having
> any of it. Finally I dug out another $10 and gave her that too, and then she
> counted out $19 in $1 bills for my change. She had to count them out three
> times to get the amount right.
>
> So yes, people do get dependent on the machines, to the point where they
> have no idea what's even going on. Pretty depressing.
The other day I was in a small shop here in Corinaldo. The shopowner was
discussing with her housekeeper how much she owed her for a day's work.
She pulled out a calculator and said, "Six and a quarter hours, that
would be six-point-one-five times ...".
I was tempted to say, "I'll have six and a quarter hectograms of
parmiagiano, please."
The moral is that not even a machine is any good if there isn't a brain
behind it.
Barbara
>
> greg byshenk wrote:
> > That was never my experience when living in the US. Most common was the
> > cashier who had no idea of how to make change, and had to wait until you
> > gave her/him the amount that s/he could punch into the register. I tend
> > to spend my coins, and frequently would give the cashier (for example) USD
> > 5.07 for a charge of 4.82. About 25% of the time I would get a baffled
> > look in response, followed by astonishment after they punched the numbers
> > into the register and discovered the point of the exercise. Occasionally I
> > had to tell the cashier, "just punch it in and then it will make sense --
> > really".
>
> The other day I made a purchase of $1.10. I didn't have any singles so I
> offered $10.10 (a $10 and a dime). The cashier accidentally punched in that
> I'd offered $20.10 and started freaking out and looking for the manager. I
> said "just give me $9 back; trust me, it'll be fine" but she wasn't having
> any of it. Finally I dug out another $10 and gave her that too, and then she
> counted out $19 in $1 bills for my change. She had to count them out three
> times to get the amount right.
>
> So yes, people do get dependent on the machines, to the point where they
> have no idea what's even going on. Pretty depressing.
The other day I was in a small shop here in Corinaldo. The shopowner was
discussing with her housekeeper how much she owed her for a day's work.
She pulled out a calculator and said, "Six and a quarter hours, that
would be six-point-one-five times ...".
I was tempted to say, "I'll have six and a quarter hectograms of
parmiagiano, please."
The moral is that not even a machine is any good if there isn't a brain
behind it.
Barbara
Jun 2nd 2003 | 11:56 pm
#81
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Posts: n/a
Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
Jim Ley wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 12:09:18 +0100, Marie Lewis
> wrote:
> >In article , Miguel Cruz
> > writes
> >>Marie Lewis wrote:
> >>> Can anyone explain to me why split infinitives are acceptable
> >>> grammatically in the USA but not in the UK?
> >>
> >>They're acceptable anywhere that doesn't use Latin.
> >>
> >>miguel
> >
> >Sorry? As far as I am aware we do not "use Latin" in the UK, but a
> >split infinitive is certainly a grammatical error.
> I don't think you'll find that much support for that view even in the
> UK amoungst the relevant experts. I believeFowler is happy with
> them... and on a more travel related side, so is Bill Bryson...
It is not a matter of 'support'. Split infinitives are ungrammatical. Full
stop.
However, writers are often also ungrammatical, either unknowingly, or
deliberately for effect, without drawing fire except from pedants.
Surreyman
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 12:09:18 +0100, Marie Lewis
> wrote:
> >In article , Miguel Cruz
> > writes
> >>Marie Lewis wrote:
> >>> Can anyone explain to me why split infinitives are acceptable
> >>> grammatically in the USA but not in the UK?
> >>
> >>They're acceptable anywhere that doesn't use Latin.
> >>
> >>miguel
> >
> >Sorry? As far as I am aware we do not "use Latin" in the UK, but a
> >split infinitive is certainly a grammatical error.
> I don't think you'll find that much support for that view even in the
> UK amoungst the relevant experts. I believeFowler is happy with
> them... and on a more travel related side, so is Bill Bryson...
It is not a matter of 'support'. Split infinitives are ungrammatical. Full
stop.
However, writers are often also ungrammatical, either unknowingly, or
deliberately for effect, without drawing fire except from pedants.
Surreyman
Jun 2nd 2003 | 11:59 pm
#82
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
Marie Lewis wrote:
>
> In article , Miguel Cruz
> writes
> >Marie Lewis wrote:
> >> Can anyone explain to me why split infinitives are acceptable
> >> grammatically in the USA but not in the UK?
> >
> >They're acceptable anywhere that doesn't use Latin.
> >
> >miguel
>
> Sorry? As far as I am aware we do not "use Latin" in the UK, but a
> split infinitive is certainly a grammatical error.
It's a rule that was invented in the 18th century, along with the ban on
the double negative and the ban on ending a sentence with a preposition.
Shakespeare and many other trustworthy sources throughout the centuries
have regularly split infinitives. In the second half of the 20th century
language experts more or less agreed that these rules never had any
basis in good practice. The double negative, however, now has virtually
disappeared and sounds wrong.
Barbara
>
> In article , Miguel Cruz
> writes
> >Marie Lewis wrote:
> >> Can anyone explain to me why split infinitives are acceptable
> >> grammatically in the USA but not in the UK?
> >
> >They're acceptable anywhere that doesn't use Latin.
> >
> >miguel
>
> Sorry? As far as I am aware we do not "use Latin" in the UK, but a
> split infinitive is certainly a grammatical error.
It's a rule that was invented in the 18th century, along with the ban on
the double negative and the ban on ending a sentence with a preposition.
Shakespeare and many other trustworthy sources throughout the centuries
have regularly split infinitives. In the second half of the 20th century
language experts more or less agreed that these rules never had any
basis in good practice. The double negative, however, now has virtually
disappeared and sounds wrong.
Barbara
Jun 3rd 2003 | 12:08 am
#83
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 12:56:37 +0100, "Surreyman"
wrote:
>Jim Ley wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I don't think you'll find that much support for that view even in the
>> UK amoungst the relevant experts. I believeFowler is happy with
>> them... and on a more travel related side, so is Bill Bryson...
>It is not a matter of 'support'. Split infinitives are ungrammatical. Full
>stop.
No it's not, English grammar has no academy telling us what's right
and wrong, it's simply an agreement between all the users of the
language. With such things as split infinitives there's considerable
evidence that it was an invention to get English to appear more Latin
like - something that is ridiculous, them being different languages.
Jim.
wrote:
>Jim Ley wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I don't think you'll find that much support for that view even in the
>> UK amoungst the relevant experts. I believeFowler is happy with
>> them... and on a more travel related side, so is Bill Bryson...
>It is not a matter of 'support'. Split infinitives are ungrammatical. Full
>stop.
No it's not, English grammar has no academy telling us what's right
and wrong, it's simply an agreement between all the users of the
language. With such things as split infinitives there's considerable
evidence that it was an invention to get English to appear more Latin
like - something that is ridiculous, them being different languages.
Jim.
Jun 3rd 2003 | 12:39 am
#84
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
Following up to Marie Lewis
>Sorry? As far as I am aware we do not "use Latin" in the UK, but a
>split infinitive is certainly a grammatical error.
>--
Not anymore, some authority, Oxford Dictionary? recently announced we
have moved with the times and you can boldly go wherever you like in
UK. We do use latin in a sense in UK, in that we have grafted latin
grammar onto a germanic language (something like that).
But basically, who gives a t***?
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Fellwalking, photos, London & the Thames path "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk"
Spain, food and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" (see web for email)
>Sorry? As far as I am aware we do not "use Latin" in the UK, but a
>split infinitive is certainly a grammatical error.
>--
Not anymore, some authority, Oxford Dictionary? recently announced we
have moved with the times and you can boldly go wherever you like in
UK. We do use latin in a sense in UK, in that we have grafted latin
grammar onto a germanic language (something like that).
But basically, who gives a t***?
--
Mike Reid
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Fellwalking, photos, London & the Thames path "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk"
Spain, food and walking "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" (see web for email)
Jun 3rd 2003 | 12:54 am
#85
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
In article , Jim Ley
writes
>I don't think you'll find that much support for that view even in the
>UK amoungst the relevant experts. I believeFowler is happy with
>them... and on a more travel related side, so is Bill Bryson...
But Bill Bryson is American!
And I am not happy with split infinitives: they sound so clumsy and,
with just a little thought, are easily avoided.
--
Marie Lewis
writes
>I don't think you'll find that much support for that view even in the
>UK amoungst the relevant experts. I believeFowler is happy with
>them... and on a more travel related side, so is Bill Bryson...
But Bill Bryson is American!
And I am not happy with split infinitives: they sound so clumsy and,
with just a little thought, are easily avoided.
--
Marie Lewis
Jun 3rd 2003 | 12:54 am
#86
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
In article ,
Surreyman writes
>It is not a matter of 'support'. Split infinitives are ungrammatical. Full
>stop.
Thank you.
>However, writers are often also ungrammatical, either unknowingly, or
>deliberately for effect, without drawing fire except from pedants.
Then I am a pedant and happy to be so!
--
Marie Lewis
Surreyman writes
>It is not a matter of 'support'. Split infinitives are ungrammatical. Full
>stop.
Thank you.
>However, writers are often also ungrammatical, either unknowingly, or
>deliberately for effect, without drawing fire except from pedants.
Then I am a pedant and happy to be so!
--
Marie Lewis
Jun 3rd 2003 | 12:55 am
#87
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
In article , Jim Ley
writes
>With such things as split infinitives there's considerable
>evidence that it was an invention to get English to appear more Latin
>like - something that is ridiculous, them being different languages.
That would be "their being...."
--
Marie Lewis
writes
>With such things as split infinitives there's considerable
>evidence that it was an invention to get English to appear more Latin
>like - something that is ridiculous, them being different languages.
That would be "their being...."
--
Marie Lewis
Jun 3rd 2003 | 12:56 am
#88
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
In article , The Reid
writes
>We do use latin in a sense in UK, in that we have grafted latin
>grammar onto a germanic language (something like that).
>But basically, who gives a t***?
Me, for one. My husband, for another.
--
Marie Lewis
writes
>We do use latin in a sense in UK, in that we have grafted latin
>grammar onto a germanic language (something like that).
>But basically, who gives a t***?
Me, for one. My husband, for another.
--
Marie Lewis
Jun 3rd 2003 | 1:15 am
#89
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
Jim Ley wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 12:56:37 +0100, "Surreyman"
> wrote:
> >Jim Ley wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> I don't think you'll find that much support for that view even in the
> >> UK amoungst the relevant experts. I believeFowler is happy with
> >> them... and on a more travel related side, so is Bill Bryson...
> >>
> >
> >It is not a matter of 'support'. Split infinitives are ungrammatical.
Full
> >stop.
> No it's not, English grammar has no academy telling us what's right
> and wrong, it's simply an agreement between all the users of the
> language. With such things as split infinitives there's considerable
> evidence that it was an invention to get English to appear more Latin
> like - something that is ridiculous, them being different languages.
What?
How on earth do you split a Latin infinitive? Amlustfullyare?
An invention! To make English more like Latin! When! Why! By whom!!
I'd be fascinated by your considerable evidence.
Surreyman
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 12:56:37 +0100, "Surreyman"
> wrote:
> >Jim Ley wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> I don't think you'll find that much support for that view even in the
> >> UK amoungst the relevant experts. I believeFowler is happy with
> >> them... and on a more travel related side, so is Bill Bryson...
> >>
> >
> >It is not a matter of 'support'. Split infinitives are ungrammatical.
Full
> >stop.
> No it's not, English grammar has no academy telling us what's right
> and wrong, it's simply an agreement between all the users of the
> language. With such things as split infinitives there's considerable
> evidence that it was an invention to get English to appear more Latin
> like - something that is ridiculous, them being different languages.
What?
How on earth do you split a Latin infinitive? Amlustfullyare?
An invention! To make English more like Latin! When! Why! By whom!!
I'd be fascinated by your considerable evidence.
Surreyman
Jun 3rd 2003 | 1:35 am
#90
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Worried about appearing to be a tourist? The ugly America?
On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 14:15:49 +0100, "Surreyman"
wrote:
>How on earth do you split a Latin infinitive? Amlustfullyare?
You don't, that was the point I was making, because you can't do it in
Latin, it was decided you shouldn't do it in English either...
>An invention! To make English more like Latin! When! Why! By whom!!
http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexper...litinfinitives
http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~susan/cyc/s/split.htm
http://www.bartleby.com/61/55/S0655500.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/words/infinitives.html
Or indeed just about any google search with split infinitive in it.
Also if you wish to visit your local library, the books will say the
same.
Jim.
wrote:
>How on earth do you split a Latin infinitive? Amlustfullyare?
You don't, that was the point I was making, because you can't do it in
Latin, it was decided you shouldn't do it in English either...
>An invention! To make English more like Latin! When! Why! By whom!!
http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexper...litinfinitives
http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~susan/cyc/s/split.htm
http://www.bartleby.com/61/55/S0655500.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/words/infinitives.html
Or indeed just about any google search with split infinitive in it.
Also if you wish to visit your local library, the books will say the
same.
Jim.
