nitram

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:56:17 +0200, Ellie C <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >Mxsmanic wrote:
    >> Ellie C writes:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Maybe not if your taking photos, but it sure makes a difference
    >>>when you're looking at the sunset.
    >>
    >>
    >> What difference is that?
    >>
    >>
    >>>Humidity changes everything. Edges become blurrier, aerial
    >>>perspetive has more effect the higher the humidity.
    >>
    >>
    >> Water vapor is invisible.
    >>
    >THen I must be having hallucinations when the hills disappear because of
    >little droplets of water. I wonder why people buy fog lights. I wonder
    >what that stuff is that makes it hard to see through my windshield on
    >rainy days. Why do weather reports talk of visibility?
    >What are you drinking?

I'm suffering from a bit of elementary scientific education about 50
years ago.

Most things have three states solid, liquid and gas

For H2O

solid = ice
liquid =water
gaseous = steam.
--
Martin

Jeremy

[email protected] (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote in message news:<1gm18tj.2ho02p1bmv7k7N%this_address_is_for_s [email protected]>...
    > Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > > Ellie C writes:
    > > >> Humidity changes everything. Edges become blurrier, aerial
    > > >> perspetive has more effect the higher the humidity.
    > > >
    > > > Water vapor is invisible.
    > >
    > > What were those white puffy things I saw in the sky today?
    >
    > Mxsmanic is, in fact, correct.
    >
    > David

Correct in the narrow sense that what he said is, in isolation, true.
Incorrect in the larger sense that, as he might put it "I am unable to
find the words 'water vapor' in Ellie's post".

Humidity obviously has an effect, as it implies a greater likelihood
that condensation will occur locally, with the consequences described
by Ellie.

Mixup is playing his usual infantile game of deliberately
misunderstanding the point of a posting in order to create an
argument. A poor substitute for a life, but there ya go...

J;

Miguel Cruz

<[email protected]> wrote:
    > [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
    >> Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> Ellie C writes:
    >>>> Humidity changes everything. Edges become blurrier, aerial
    >>>> perspetive has more effect the higher the humidity.
    >>> Water vapor is invisible.
    >> What were those white puffy things I saw in the sky today?
    > clouds consisting of water droplets

Well, whatever they are, I'll wager they have some sort of connection to
humidity, and they are far from invisible. One example of what Ellie's
saying; humidity can have visible impact.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 32 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu

Frank F. Matthews

Ellie C wrote:

    > Mxsmanic wrote:
    >
    >> devil writes:

    >>> What you see is freshly formed condensate. In contrast, one of the
    >>> things
    >>> that make superheated steam more dangerous than saturated steam is that
    >>> since it takes some cooling until it would condense, it's invisible.

    >> One of my relatives used to work around superheated steam and considered
    >> it extremely dangerous, since it could be leaking from the system and
    >> you wouldn't know it until you walked through the leak and had your
    >> flesh burned away.

    > You may call it "freshly formed condensate" but for most people, "water
    > vapor" refers to visible droplets of water in the air. And that's what
    > we were talking about - the humidity that changes how things look.

There's always a problem with folks who use technical terms carelessly.
I've heard that priests complain when politicians refer to evil.

Devil

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:07:35 -0700, Jeremy wrote:

    > [email protected] (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote in message news:<1gm18tj.2ho02p1bmv7k7N%this_address_is_for_s [email protected]>...
    >> Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> > Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> > > Ellie C writes:
    >> > >> Humidity changes everything. Edges become blurrier, aerial
    >> > >> perspetive has more effect the higher the humidity.
    >> > >
    >> > > Water vapor is invisible.
    >> >
    >> > What were those white puffy things I saw in the sky today?
    >>
    >> Mxsmanic is, in fact, correct.
    >>
    >> David
    >
    > Correct in the narrow sense that what he said is, in isolation, true.
    > Incorrect in the larger sense that, as he might put it "I am unable to
    > find the words 'water vapor' in Ellie's post".
    >
    > Humidity obviously has an effect, as it implies a greater likelihood
    > that condensation will occur locally, with the consequences described
    > by Ellie.
    >
    > Mixup is playing his usual infantile game of deliberately
    > misunderstanding the point of a posting in order to create an
    > argument. A poor substitute for a life, but there ya go...

It's more complex than that. Humidity can have an effect in the form of
fog obviously (which is more or less what we are talking about here).

OTOH, ever wondered why in warm and humid climates, landscapes tend to get
blurred at least as the distance increases? Why do I have a much better
view of the mountains in winter, while in summer time, even on a sunny
day, sometimes they are barely visible?

Again, the answer is humidity. But not as fog, not as droplets. As the
water vapor mixed in the air. Not visible as such, but with a strong
effect in transparency when the concentration get high; which can only
happen at higher temperatures, given the shape of the temperature
dependency of the saturation curve.

In summary, there may be a case for being specific; not necessarily just
pedantism.

Hatunen

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 23:54:21 +0200, Mxsmanic
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Ellie C writes:
    >> Maybe not if your taking photos, but it sure makes a difference
    >> when you're looking at the sunset.
    >What difference is that?
    >> Humidity changes everything. Edges become blurrier, aerial
    >> perspetive has more effect the higher the humidity.
    >Water vapor is invisible.

But it alters the refractive index.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:39:56 +0200, Mxsmanic
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Ellie C writes:
    >> You may call it "freshly formed condensate" but for most people, "water
    >> vapor" refers to visible droplets of water in the air.
    >However ignorant most people may be of basic science, that does not
    >alter reality.
    >> And that's what we were talking about - the humidity that changes
    >> how things look.
    >Humidity does not change how things look.

Humidity in the air changes its density and its refractive index;
the change in looks may be subtle, but it is there.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Mxsmanic

Ellie C writes:

    > You may call it "freshly formed condensate" but for most people, "water
    > vapor" refers to visible droplets of water in the air.

However ignorant most people may be of basic science, that does not
alter reality.

    > And that's what we were talking about - the humidity that changes
    > how things look.

Humidity does not change how things look.

--
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Mxsmanic

Ellie C writes:

    > If water vapor is invisible, how come we all get this mental picture of
    > what it looks like?

Do we?

    > Mist, fog, steam - all those things are invisible?

None of these is water vapor (except dry steam, and it _is_ invisible).

--
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Mxsmanic

Jeremy writes:

    > Mixup is playing his usual infantile game of deliberately
    > misunderstanding the point of a posting in order to create an
    > argument.

At what age does one play the game of denying one's own mistakes?

--
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Mxsmanic

Miguel Cruz writes:

    > Well, whatever they are, I'll wager they have some sort of connection to
    > humidity, and they are far from invisible.

Water vapor has a much more direct connection to humidity, and yet it is
invisible.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Hatunen

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:48:30 GMT, devil <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:07:35 -0700, Jeremy wrote:
    >> [email protected] (chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn) wrote in message news:<1gm18tj.2ho02p1bmv7k7N%this_address_is_for_s [email protected]>...
    >>> Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>> > Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> > > Ellie C writes:
    >>> > >> Humidity changes everything. Edges become blurrier, aerial
    >>> > >> perspetive has more effect the higher the humidity.
    >>> > >
    >>> > > Water vapor is invisible.
    >>> >
    >>> > What were those white puffy things I saw in the sky today?
    >>>
    >>> Mxsmanic is, in fact, correct.
    >>>
    >>> David
    >>
    >> Correct in the narrow sense that what he said is, in isolation, true.
    >> Incorrect in the larger sense that, as he might put it "I am unable to
    >> find the words 'water vapor' in Ellie's post".
    >>
    >> Humidity obviously has an effect, as it implies a greater likelihood
    >> that condensation will occur locally, with the consequences described
    >> by Ellie.
    >>
    >> Mixup is playing his usual infantile game of deliberately
    >> misunderstanding the point of a posting in order to create an
    >> argument. A poor substitute for a life, but there ya go...
    >It's more complex than that. Humidity can have an effect in the form of
    >fog obviously (which is more or less what we are talking about here).

Are we? All of us?

I don't often agree with Mxxx but I do here. Humidity is water
vapor and it is transparent (not, as Mxxx seems to belirve,
invisible).

    >OTOH, ever wondered why in warm and humid climates, landscapes tend to get
    >blurred at least as the distance increases? Why do I have a much better
    >view of the mountains in winter, while in summer time, even on a sunny
    >day, sometimes they are barely visible?

The clear view of the mountains is due to the stillness of the
air between you and them, especially in the winter. And there are
quite a few things that can get in the air to obscure distant
mountains, including the exhallations of some trees, dust due to
the more erratic winds of summer, much of which is due to
thermals that you don't get in winter. And so forth.

    >Again, the answer is humidity. But not as fog, not as droplets. As the
    >water vapor mixed in the air. Not visible as such, but with a strong
    >effect in transparency when the concentration get high; which can only
    >happen at higher temperatures, given the shape of the temperature
    >dependency of the saturation curve.

Close but no horseshoe.



************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Mxsmanic

Ellie C writes:

    > THen I must be having hallucinations when the hills disappear because of
    > little droplets of water. I wonder why people buy fog lights. I wonder
    > what that stuff is that makes it hard to see through my windshield on
    > rainy days.

I don't see any connection between any of this and the invisiblity of
water vapor.

    > Why do weather reports talk of visibility?

Because some people are interested in it.

    > What are you drinking?

Nothing, at the moment. My last beverage was milk.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Mxsmanic

Ellie C writes:

    > ... I see the sun rising over the hill where Rennes le Chateau is.

Doesn't the hill catch fire?

--
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Hatunen

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:43:08 +0200, Mxsmanic
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Miguel Cruz writes:
    >> Well, whatever they are, I'll wager they have some sort of connection to
    >> humidity, and they are far from invisible.
    >Water vapor has a much more direct connection to humidity, and yet it is
    >invisible.

You're confusing invisibility with transparency.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *