On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:55:16 GMT, [email protected]
(John Kulp) wrote:

>Missed all the rationing posts didn't you moron? Just how do you get
>treatment when it's rationed. Like the knee replacement case in the
>UK where the guy had to win the lottery to have it done privately.

I think the point you may be missing is that regardless of
income the person getting "elective" surgery in a system
like the NHS will get it, albeit possibly delayed longer
than it should have been. The uninsured low-income person in
your system doesn't get it at all.


Cheers, Alan, Australia
--
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
http://loraltraveloz.blogspot.com/
latest: Mossman Gorge in the Daintree Rainforest

Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:55:16 GMT, [email protected]
>(John Kulp) wrote:
>
>>Missed all the rationing posts didn't you moron? Just how do you get
>>treatment when it's rationed. Like the knee replacement case in the
>>UK where the guy had to win the lottery to have it done privately.
>
>I think the point you may be missing is that regardless of
>income the person getting "elective" surgery in a system
>like the NHS will get it, albeit possibly delayed longer
>than it should have been. The uninsured low-income person in
>your system doesn't get it at all.
>
Alan, you have too much time on your hands. It's never productive
arguing with somebody who verbally abuses those who have different
opinions from his own.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 00:54:40 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Alan, you have too much time on your hands.
True; one of the side-effects of retirement.

> It's never productive
>arguing with somebody who verbally abuses those who have different
>opinions from his own.
I spend too much time in medical groups where that is often
par for the course:-)


Cheers, Alan, Australia
--
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
http://loraltraveloz.blogspot.com/
latest: Mossman Gorge in the Daintree Rainforest

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:41:31 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:28:55 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
>>>With 225K MDs, but half of them foreigners, that is serious fundamental
>>>problem... the UK needs to pay more to attract native MDs... but that
>>>is the problem w/ all health care... there just isn't enough coin to go
>>>around.
>>
>>The problem is foreign doctors? What makes all those Aussie, Kiwi and
>>Seffie doctors such a fundamental problem?
>>--
>
>You've stolen our doctors? I wondered why my local surgery
>is staffed by a Chinese, an Indian and a Pakistani. Who are
>all excellent docs BTW.

Just out of curiousity, why do you call these offices surgeries?
Aren't they just normal doctor's offices?

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:44:12 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:55:16 GMT, [email protected]
>(John Kulp) wrote:
>
>>Missed all the rationing posts didn't you moron? Just how do you get
>>treatment when it's rationed. Like the knee replacement case in the
>>UK where the guy had to win the lottery to have it done privately.
>
>I think the point you may be missing is that regardless of
>income the person getting "elective" surgery in a system
>like the NHS will get it, albeit possibly delayed longer
>than it should have been. The uninsured low-income person in
>your system doesn't get it at all.

Sorry, but that is only partially true. Lots of free operations are
done by docs here and hospitals write off lots of them as well every
year. Not everyone would get it, that's true, but this is a lot lower
number that most foreigners think. Just like lawyers do pro bono
work. So some do and some don't. I'm not arguing this is the best
way, btw, because I am for universal coverage. My aim in these
discussions is to get rid of the myths about our system and point out
that others have lots of flaws of their own.

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 00:54:40 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:55:16 GMT, [email protected]
>>(John Kulp) wrote:
>>
>>>Missed all the rationing posts didn't you moron? Just how do you get
>>>treatment when it's rationed. Like the knee replacement case in the
>>>UK where the guy had to win the lottery to have it done privately.
>>
>>I think the point you may be missing is that regardless of
>>income the person getting "elective" surgery in a system
>>like the NHS will get it, albeit possibly delayed longer
>>than it should have been. The uninsured low-income person in
>>your system doesn't get it at all.
>>
>Alan, you have too much time on your hands. It's never productive
>arguing with somebody who verbally abuses those who have different
>opinions from his own.

You mean like the so called doctor saying F this and F that?

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:38:17 GMT, [email protected]
(John Kulp) wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:41:31 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:28:55 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
>><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>
>>>>With 225K MDs, but half of them foreigners, that is serious fundamental
>>>>problem... the UK needs to pay more to attract native MDs... but that
>>>>is the problem w/ all health care... there just isn't enough coin to go
>>>>around.
>>>
>>>The problem is foreign doctors? What makes all those Aussie, Kiwi and
>>>Seffie doctors such a fundamental problem?
>>>--
>>
>>You've stolen our doctors? I wondered why my local surgery
>>is staffed by a Chinese, an Indian and a Pakistani. Who are
>>all excellent docs BTW.
>
>Just out of curiousity, why do you call these offices surgeries?
>Aren't they just normal doctor's offices?

Standard usage in Oz, and I believe in the UK. The surgery
is the place where a GP practises medicine, whether or not
actual surgery is performed there.

The US Webster's dictionary includes that British
definition, see 3.a:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...rch&va=surgery


Cheers, Alan, Australia
--
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
http://loraltraveloz.blogspot.com/
latest: Mossman Gorge in the Daintree Rainforest

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:42:06 GMT, [email protected]
(John Kulp) wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:44:12 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:55:16 GMT, [email protected]
>>(John Kulp) wrote:
>>
>>>Missed all the rationing posts didn't you moron? Just how do you get
>>>treatment when it's rationed. Like the knee replacement case in the
>>>UK where the guy had to win the lottery to have it done privately.
>>
>>I think the point you may be missing is that regardless of
>>income the person getting "elective" surgery in a system
>>like the NHS will get it, albeit possibly delayed longer
>>than it should have been. The uninsured low-income person in
>>your system doesn't get it at all.
>
>Sorry, but that is only partially true. Lots of free operations are
>done by docs here and hospitals write off lots of them as well every
>year. Not everyone would get it, that's true, but this is a lot lower
>number that most foreigners think. Just like lawyers do pro bono
>work. So some do and some don't. I'm not arguing this is the best
>way, btw, because I am for universal coverage. My aim in these
>discussions is to get rid of the myths about our system and point out
>that others have lots of flaws of their own.

I don't want to denigrate any national system. None of our
systems are perfect and they all have different problems -
but there is a reason why my travel insurance is more
expensive if I include the USA in a trip no matter where
else in the world I am going.

As Padraig noted I have time on my hands; I spend a couple
of hours each day on usenet and web diabetes groups and a
world-wide leukemia email group. Those groups are dominated
by Americans who make sure that the rest of us are well
aware of both the strengths (in quality and research) and
shortcomings (in cost and insurance coverage) of your
system.

So, I think you grossly underestimate the problem. I meet
too many people, on the net and physically in my travels,
who have been bankrupted, or gone close to it, by the cost
of care. People who have lost homes, retirement funds, all
their assets to be able to afford appropriate treatment for
chronic or life-threatening conditions. And the catch-22 of
those whose health coverage is related to their employment
but who lost their jobs - and that coverage - because of a
chronic health condition. Those who CAN afford it get
wonderful health care, but just read some of the current
threads on those groups discussing Michael Moore's "Sicko"
(using that as the trigger for discussion, not the merits of
the movie itself).

If you want specifics - I won't post them here. Too OT. But
off-group I can tell you the different prices I pay for
diabetes supplies; or what I will/may pay eventually for
chemo. And then I can tell you stories of guys I know in the
States risking their health buying meds or glucose test
strips in Mexico or on the net, or flying to Central America
or Asia for medical procedures they can afford.

And to balance that, I can also bore you with details of the
problems in the UK of the postcode lottery and getting
adequate test strips for Type 2 diabetes management. But,
I've said enough now to last a while so this will be my last
post on it:-)


Cheers, Alan, Australia
--
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
http://loraltraveloz.blogspot.com/
latest: Mossman Gorge in the Daintree Rainforest

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:13:43 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:42:06 GMT, [email protected]
>(John Kulp) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:44:12 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:55:16 GMT, [email protected]
>>>(John Kulp) wrote:
>>>
>>>>Missed all the rationing posts didn't you moron? Just how do you get
>>>>treatment when it's rationed. Like the knee replacement case in the
>>>>UK where the guy had to win the lottery to have it done privately.
>>>
>>>I think the point you may be missing is that regardless of
>>>income the person getting "elective" surgery in a system
>>>like the NHS will get it, albeit possibly delayed longer
>>>than it should have been. The uninsured low-income person in
>>>your system doesn't get it at all.
>>
>>Sorry, but that is only partially true. Lots of free operations are
>>done by docs here and hospitals write off lots of them as well every
>>year. Not everyone would get it, that's true, but this is a lot lower
>>number that most foreigners think. Just like lawyers do pro bono
>>work. So some do and some don't. I'm not arguing this is the best
>>way, btw, because I am for universal coverage. My aim in these
>>discussions is to get rid of the myths about our system and point out
>>that others have lots of flaws of their own.
>
>I don't want to denigrate any national system. None of our
>systems are perfect and they all have different problems -
>but there is a reason why my travel insurance is more
>expensive if I include the USA in a trip no matter where
>else in the world I am going.
>
>As Padraig noted I have time on my hands; I spend a couple
>of hours each day on usenet and web diabetes groups and a
>world-wide leukemia email group. Those groups are dominated
>by Americans who make sure that the rest of us are well
>aware of both the strengths (in quality and research) and
>shortcomings (in cost and insurance coverage) of your
>system.
>
>So, I think you grossly underestimate the problem. I meet
>too many people, on the net and physically in my travels,
>who have been bankrupted, or gone close to it, by the cost
>of care. People who have lost homes, retirement funds, all
>their assets to be able to afford appropriate treatment for
>chronic or life-threatening conditions. And the catch-22 of
>those whose health coverage is related to their employment
>but who lost their jobs - and that coverage - because of a
>chronic health condition. Those who CAN afford it get
>wonderful health care, but just read some of the current
>threads on those groups discussing Michael Moore's "Sicko"
>(using that as the trigger for discussion, not the merits of
>the movie itself).
>
>If you want specifics - I won't post them here. Too OT. But
>off-group I can tell you the different prices I pay for
>diabetes supplies; or what I will/may pay eventually for
>chemo. And then I can tell you stories of guys I know in the
>States risking their health buying meds or glucose test
>strips in Mexico or on the net, or flying to Central America
>or Asia for medical procedures they can afford.
>
>And to balance that, I can also bore you with details of the
>problems in the UK of the postcode lottery and getting
>adequate test strips for Type 2 diabetes management. But,
>I've said enough now to last a while so this will be my last
>post on it:-)

Yes, what you say is quite true here, which is why I said I was for
universal coverage here before. The US system is a bizarre
combination of top notch medical care for most (leaving out the
inevitable malpractice cases that pop up in any system for various
reasons) and people falling off the cliff, which shouldn't happen. No
doubt and it needs fixing for sure. But, that having been said, the
objectives of the posters to whom I was replying for the most part was
simply to libel our system, calling it ghastly and the like, which
it's not and I am not going to let it pass. Misunderstanding is one
thing and intentional distortions, lies, falsehoods are quite another.
A lot of this is the pot calling the kettle black by these types, as
if they somehow have the perfect solution. They don't. As for
Michael Moore, if he were at all intelligent, he would put out movies
that are balanced and show the entire situation, as you do right here.
That would be a true public service and, perhaps, do a lot to get this
solved. But he is just a left wing ideologue and ignores the balance
so the right wing nutbars can easily get his stuff dismissed. Oddly
enough, it was George Bush's cousin who taught him how to direct.
How's that for irony? Anyway, good luck with your conditions. No one
should have to bear that burden and also worry about their financial
security.

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 14:45:02 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:38:17 GMT, [email protected]
>(John Kulp) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:41:31 +1000, Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:28:55 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
>>><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>With 225K MDs, but half of them foreigners, that is serious fundamental
>>>>>problem... the UK needs to pay more to attract native MDs... but that
>>>>>is the problem w/ all health care... there just isn't enough coin to go
>>>>>around.
>>>>
>>>>The problem is foreign doctors? What makes all those Aussie, Kiwi and
>>>>Seffie doctors such a fundamental problem?
>>>>--
>>>
>>>You've stolen our doctors? I wondered why my local surgery
>>>is staffed by a Chinese, an Indian and a Pakistani. Who are
>>>all excellent docs BTW.
>>
>>Just out of curiousity, why do you call these offices surgeries?
>>Aren't they just normal doctor's offices?
>
>Standard usage in Oz, and I believe in the UK. The surgery
>is the place where a GP practises medicine, whether or not
>actual surgery is performed there.
>
>The US Webster's dictionary includes that British
>definition, see 3.a:
>http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...rch&va=surgery

Thanks. I thought that was probably the case. I wonder if it
originated way back when they thought cutting up someone (or leeching
them) was the way to treat everything

Alan S wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:38:17 GMT, [email protected]
> (John Kulp) wrote:
>
>
>>Just out of curiousity, why do you call these offices surgeries?
>>Aren't they just normal doctor's offices?
>
>
> Standard usage in Oz, and I believe in the UK. The surgery
> is the place where a GP practises medicine, whether or not
> actual surgery is performed there.
>
>
The term is also used for MPs and MSPs, for the meetings they have with
their constituents.

On 14 Aug, 21:12, Doesn't Frequently Mop
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
> Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:30:49 GMT,
> [email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>
> >On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:24:18 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop
> ><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>
> >>Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:33:53 GMT,
> >>[email protected] (John Kulp) has scripted:
>
> >>>What was that about the UK system being off of charity 60 years ago
> >>>Blacko? Hope they don't get colon cancer as well.
>
> >>Any other illness and you'll be just fine!
>
> >Sure. Like knee replacements. Right.
>
> Best place to get treated for that is Northern Ireland - in Britain.
> --
> ---
> DFM -http://www.deepfriedmars.com
> ---
> --

Belgium is closer and they speak better English )
http://www.direct-healthcare.com/knee-surgery.htm

knees
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3879371.stm

S Viemeister <[email protected]> wrote:

>Alan S wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:38:17 GMT, [email protected]
>> (John Kulp) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Just out of curiousity, why do you call these offices surgeries?
>>>Aren't they just normal doctor's offices?
>>
>>
>> Standard usage in Oz, and I believe in the UK. The surgery
>> is the place where a GP practises medicine, whether or not
>> actual surgery is performed there.
>>
>>
>The term is also used for MPs and MSPs, for the meetings they have with
>their constituents.

In Ireland:
- politicians have clinics
- GPs and dentists have surgeries
- consultants seeing private patients have rooms, fixed appointments,
and no queues
- consultants seeing public patients have clinics, general
appointments ("everybody come at 09.30"), and you might wait for three
hours.
- surgeons have theatres
- administrators have offices.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/

"S Viemeister" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Alan S wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:38:17 GMT, [email protected]
> > (John Kulp) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Just out of curiousity, why do you call these offices surgeries?
> >>Aren't they just normal doctor's offices?
> >
> >
> > Standard usage in Oz, and I believe in the UK. The surgery
> > is the place where a GP practises medicine, whether or not
> > actual surgery is performed there.
> >
> >
> The term is also used for MPs and MSPs, for the meetings they have with
> their constituents.
>

And local cops, etc., etc.

Surreyman

John Kulp wrote:
>
>> The US Webster's dictionary includes that British
>> definition, see 3.a:
>> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...rch&va=surgery
>
> Thanks. I thought that was probably the case. I wonder if it
> originated way back when they thought cutting up someone (or leeching
> them) was the way to treat everything.

I believe that leeches are making a comeback. Apparently they are useful
for treating open wounds, and prevent gangrene.