police registration in italy?
Oct 24th 2006, 7:11 pm
#106
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Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:27:39 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:40:30 +0200, Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>If English doesn't have gender, how do you explain "him" and "her"?
>>>"... but only sex"
>> Sorry, pronouns are gender, not sex.
>No, Barbara, I agree with Sinclair that they are sex. See my longer response
>to Giovanni elsewhere in the thread. We apply he/him/his to male persons,
>and to male animals where we perceive sex to "matter", as in the case of a
>pet, and similarly she/her to female persons and animals. The few apparent
>exceptions are personification (as in "she" for a ship). It/its are used for
>asexual objects, and animals where sex doesn't "matter".
Grammatically, the distinction exists even though the male and female
pronouns are almost universally applied to animate objects. In other
words, it's a difference of degree, not of substance.
>This is very different from the following hypothetical conversation in which
>you might be engaged:
>Person: Dottoressa Vaughan, lei vede la macchina all'incrocio?
>You: Si, la vedo.
>Person: E vede anche l'autobus alla fermata?
>You; Si, si, lo vedo.
>This is gender - the car's feminine and the bus masculine.
>While the English pronominal forms certainly derive from what were once
>gendered forms in Old and Middle English, gender no longer exists in
>English. In my longer response to Giovanni, I've waffled a bit about
>"gender" as a sociological term
I saw your longer response, and I still disagree.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:40:30 +0200, Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>If English doesn't have gender, how do you explain "him" and "her"?
>>>"... but only sex"
>> Sorry, pronouns are gender, not sex.
>No, Barbara, I agree with Sinclair that they are sex. See my longer response
>to Giovanni elsewhere in the thread. We apply he/him/his to male persons,
>and to male animals where we perceive sex to "matter", as in the case of a
>pet, and similarly she/her to female persons and animals. The few apparent
>exceptions are personification (as in "she" for a ship). It/its are used for
>asexual objects, and animals where sex doesn't "matter".
Grammatically, the distinction exists even though the male and female
pronouns are almost universally applied to animate objects. In other
words, it's a difference of degree, not of substance.
>This is very different from the following hypothetical conversation in which
>you might be engaged:
>Person: Dottoressa Vaughan, lei vede la macchina all'incrocio?
>You: Si, la vedo.
>Person: E vede anche l'autobus alla fermata?
>You; Si, si, lo vedo.
>This is gender - the car's feminine and the bus masculine.
>While the English pronominal forms certainly derive from what were once
>gendered forms in Old and Middle English, gender no longer exists in
>English. In my longer response to Giovanni, I've waffled a bit about
>"gender" as a sociological term
I saw your longer response, and I still disagree.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Oct 24th 2006, 9:02 pm
#107
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006, B Vaughan wrote:
> English still has the dative, although its forms are identical to the
> accusative. When you say, "I gave him the ball", "him" is dative.
I know, and I'm glad you say that, although probably most native
speakers won't realize it. I fully agree with you also about grammatical
gender. Cases and genders are present in English in vestigial form.
Cases are present in Italian in vestigial form. Genders are alive in
Italian. Both cases and genders are alive in German and Russian.
> so-called "Saxon genitive" isn't used universally. I hear things like
> "the automobile's hood", which no native speaker would say.
Or like the inscription "Park's regulations" which I can see in Milan.
In fact the correct usage of such genitive form and of compound
locutions like "air cushion vehicle" (where we use mixtures of
prepositions "veicolo a cuscino d'aria") are probably one of the
greatest difficulties for an italian to speak/write proper english. The
other one is correct usage of determinative and indeterminative
articles.
> >Our "analisi logica" has plenty of complements e.g. "complemento di
> >stato in luogo" (lit. of state in place, e.g. "at home"), [...]
> This is a perfect example of a categorization that has no utility that
> I can see.
It has when you shall translate italian into a language with cases, both
without prepositions or with prepositions + a case.
> This is a "complement" in English. All of the others you mention above
> would be called "objects", mostly objects of prepositions.
Here the notation surely differs. By the way I checked yesterday my
german grammar in german, and they also use "Obiekt" (also
"Akkusativobiect" and "Dativobiekt") for what we call "complementi"
--
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> English still has the dative, although its forms are identical to the
> accusative. When you say, "I gave him the ball", "him" is dative.
I know, and I'm glad you say that, although probably most native
speakers won't realize it. I fully agree with you also about grammatical
gender. Cases and genders are present in English in vestigial form.
Cases are present in Italian in vestigial form. Genders are alive in
Italian. Both cases and genders are alive in German and Russian.
> so-called "Saxon genitive" isn't used universally. I hear things like
> "the automobile's hood", which no native speaker would say.
Or like the inscription "Park's regulations" which I can see in Milan.
In fact the correct usage of such genitive form and of compound
locutions like "air cushion vehicle" (where we use mixtures of
prepositions "veicolo a cuscino d'aria") are probably one of the
greatest difficulties for an italian to speak/write proper english. The
other one is correct usage of determinative and indeterminative
articles.
> >Our "analisi logica" has plenty of complements e.g. "complemento di
> >stato in luogo" (lit. of state in place, e.g. "at home"), [...]
> This is a perfect example of a categorization that has no utility that
> I can see.
It has when you shall translate italian into a language with cases, both
without prepositions or with prepositions + a case.
> This is a "complement" in English. All of the others you mention above
> would be called "objects", mostly objects of prepositions.
Here the notation surely differs. By the way I checked yesterday my
german grammar in german, and they also use "Obiekt" (also
"Akkusativobiect" and "Dativobiekt") for what we call "complementi"
--
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Oct 24th 2006, 9:07 pm
#108
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006, B Vaughan wrote:
> >They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
> >even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
>
> Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
The booths I remember at the entrance of the old "international
departures" at Linate were surely manned by police. One of their main
task was to ensure that Italians leaving for extra-EU countries have
paid the annual stamp duty on passport.
I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
are Schengen now. At Malpensa Schengen and non-Schengen is separate.
Last time I flew out-of-Schengen (UK) I can't however remember whether
the passport check by police (one among too many) took place at a booth,
or while standing in a looong queue, it was a messy August Saturday.
--
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> >They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
> >even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
>
> Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
The booths I remember at the entrance of the old "international
departures" at Linate were surely manned by police. One of their main
task was to ensure that Italians leaving for extra-EU countries have
paid the annual stamp duty on passport.
I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
are Schengen now. At Malpensa Schengen and non-Schengen is separate.
Last time I flew out-of-Schengen (UK) I can't however remember whether
the passport check by police (one among too many) took place at a booth,
or while standing in a looong queue, it was a messy August Saturday.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected] is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
Oct 24th 2006, 10:21 pm
#109
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
Giovanni Drogo <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006, B Vaughan wrote:
>
> > >They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
> > >even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
> >
> > Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
>
> The booths I remember at the entrance of the old "international
> departures" at Linate were surely manned by police. One of their main
> task was to ensure that Italians leaving for extra-EU countries have
> paid the annual stamp duty on passport.
>
> I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
> are Schengen now. At Malpensa Schengen and non-Schengen is separate.
> Last time I flew out-of-Schengen (UK) I can't however remember whether
> the passport check by police (one among too many) took place at a booth,
> or while standing in a looong queue, it was a messy August Saturday.
Police wouldn't have checked your passport when leaving the UK. The
passport checks would have been at check-in, before security, and then
before boarding the flight.
--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006, B Vaughan wrote:
>
> > >They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
> > >even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
> >
> > Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
>
> The booths I remember at the entrance of the old "international
> departures" at Linate were surely manned by police. One of their main
> task was to ensure that Italians leaving for extra-EU countries have
> paid the annual stamp duty on passport.
>
> I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
> are Schengen now. At Malpensa Schengen and non-Schengen is separate.
> Last time I flew out-of-Schengen (UK) I can't however remember whether
> the passport check by police (one among too many) took place at a booth,
> or while standing in a looong queue, it was a messy August Saturday.
Police wouldn't have checked your passport when leaving the UK. The
passport checks would have been at check-in, before security, and then
before boarding the flight.
--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org
Oct 24th 2006, 10:21 pm
#110
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and
deansgate <[email protected]> wrote:
> Giovanni Drogo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 24 Oct 2006, B Vaughan wrote:
> >
> > > >They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
> > > >even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
> > >
> > > Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
> >
> > The booths I remember at the entrance of the old "international
> > departures" at Linate were surely manned by police. One of their main
> > task was to ensure that Italians leaving for extra-EU countries have
> > paid the annual stamp duty on passport.
> >
> > I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
> > are Schengen now. At Malpensa Schengen and non-Schengen is separate.
> > Last time I flew out-of-Schengen (UK) I can't however remember whether
> > the passport check by police (one among too many) took place at a booth,
> > or while standing in a looong queue, it was a messy August Saturday.
>
> Police wouldn't have checked your passport when leaving the UK. The
> passport checks would have been at check-in, before security, and then
> before boarding the flight.
Oh, and they're not passport checks in the immigation sense, as the UK
doesn't do exit control. It's for 'security' and so the airline thinks
they know you are who you say you are.
--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org
deansgate <[email protected]> wrote:
> Giovanni Drogo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 24 Oct 2006, B Vaughan wrote:
> >
> > > >They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
> > > >even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
> > >
> > > Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
> >
> > The booths I remember at the entrance of the old "international
> > departures" at Linate were surely manned by police. One of their main
> > task was to ensure that Italians leaving for extra-EU countries have
> > paid the annual stamp duty on passport.
> >
> > I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
> > are Schengen now. At Malpensa Schengen and non-Schengen is separate.
> > Last time I flew out-of-Schengen (UK) I can't however remember whether
> > the passport check by police (one among too many) took place at a booth,
> > or while standing in a looong queue, it was a messy August Saturday.
>
> Police wouldn't have checked your passport when leaving the UK. The
> passport checks would have been at check-in, before security, and then
> before boarding the flight.
Oh, and they're not passport checks in the immigation sense, as the UK
doesn't do exit control. It's for 'security' and so the airline thinks
they know you are who you say you are.
--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org
Oct 24th 2006, 10:36 pm
#111
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:21:58 +0100,
[email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and
>deansgate <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Giovanni Drogo <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > On Tue, 24 Oct 2006, B Vaughan wrote:
>> >
>> > > >They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
>> > > >even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
>> > >
>> > > Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
>> >
>> > The booths I remember at the entrance of the old "international
>> > departures" at Linate were surely manned by police. One of their main
>> > task was to ensure that Italians leaving for extra-EU countries have
>> > paid the annual stamp duty on passport.
>> >
>> > I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
>> > are Schengen now. At Malpensa Schengen and non-Schengen is separate.
>> > Last time I flew out-of-Schengen (UK) I can't however remember whether
>> > the passport check by police (one among too many) took place at a booth,
>> > or while standing in a looong queue, it was a messy August Saturday.
>>
>> Police wouldn't have checked your passport when leaving the UK. The
>> passport checks would have been at check-in, before security, and then
>> before boarding the flight.
>Oh, and they're not passport checks in the immigation sense, as the UK
>doesn't do exit control. It's for 'security' and so the airline thinks
>they know you are who you say you are.
Passport control has been devolved to airlines and ferry companies.
--
Martin
[email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and
>deansgate <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Giovanni Drogo <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > On Tue, 24 Oct 2006, B Vaughan wrote:
>> >
>> > > >They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
>> > > >even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
>> > >
>> > > Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
>> >
>> > The booths I remember at the entrance of the old "international
>> > departures" at Linate were surely manned by police. One of their main
>> > task was to ensure that Italians leaving for extra-EU countries have
>> > paid the annual stamp duty on passport.
>> >
>> > I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
>> > are Schengen now. At Malpensa Schengen and non-Schengen is separate.
>> > Last time I flew out-of-Schengen (UK) I can't however remember whether
>> > the passport check by police (one among too many) took place at a booth,
>> > or while standing in a looong queue, it was a messy August Saturday.
>>
>> Police wouldn't have checked your passport when leaving the UK. The
>> passport checks would have been at check-in, before security, and then
>> before boarding the flight.
>Oh, and they're not passport checks in the immigation sense, as the UK
>doesn't do exit control. It's for 'security' and so the airline thinks
>they know you are who you say you are.
Passport control has been devolved to airlines and ferry companies.
--
Martin
Oct 24th 2006, 10:39 pm
#112
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:21:58 +0100,
> [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>
> >David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and
> >deansgate <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Giovanni Drogo <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Tue, 24 Oct 2006, B Vaughan wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > >They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
> >> > > >even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
> >> > >
> >> > > Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
> >> >
> >> > The booths I remember at the entrance of the old "international
> >> > departures" at Linate were surely manned by police. One of their main
> >> > task was to ensure that Italians leaving for extra-EU countries have
> >> > paid the annual stamp duty on passport.
> >> >
> >> > I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
> >> > are Schengen now. At Malpensa Schengen and non-Schengen is separate.
> >> > Last time I flew out-of-Schengen (UK) I can't however remember whether
> >> > the passport check by police (one among too many) took place at a booth,
> >> > or while standing in a looong queue, it was a messy August Saturday.
> >>
> >> Police wouldn't have checked your passport when leaving the UK. The
> >> passport checks would have been at check-in, before security, and then
> >> before boarding the flight.
> >
> >Oh, and they're not passport checks in the immigation sense, as the UK
> >doesn't do exit control. It's for 'security' and so the airline thinks
> >they know you are who you say you are.
>
> Passport control has been devolved to airlines and ferry companies.
It's not passport control- it is checking the identity of passengers,
that's all. The UK doesn't have exit control.
--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:21:58 +0100,
> [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>
> >David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and
> >deansgate <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Giovanni Drogo <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Tue, 24 Oct 2006, B Vaughan wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > >They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
> >> > > >even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
> >> > >
> >> > > Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
> >> >
> >> > The booths I remember at the entrance of the old "international
> >> > departures" at Linate were surely manned by police. One of their main
> >> > task was to ensure that Italians leaving for extra-EU countries have
> >> > paid the annual stamp duty on passport.
> >> >
> >> > I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
> >> > are Schengen now. At Malpensa Schengen and non-Schengen is separate.
> >> > Last time I flew out-of-Schengen (UK) I can't however remember whether
> >> > the passport check by police (one among too many) took place at a booth,
> >> > or while standing in a looong queue, it was a messy August Saturday.
> >>
> >> Police wouldn't have checked your passport when leaving the UK. The
> >> passport checks would have been at check-in, before security, and then
> >> before boarding the flight.
> >
> >Oh, and they're not passport checks in the immigation sense, as the UK
> >doesn't do exit control. It's for 'security' and so the airline thinks
> >they know you are who you say you are.
>
> Passport control has been devolved to airlines and ferry companies.
It's not passport control- it is checking the identity of passengers,
that's all. The UK doesn't have exit control.
--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org
Oct 24th 2006, 10:42 pm
#113
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
"Giovanni Drogo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oengr.vans.vg...
> I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
> are Schengen now.
No, they still have flights to the UK, for which they reserve a couple of
"non-Schengen" gates.
Alan Harrison
news:[email protected] oengr.vans.vg...
> I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
> are Schengen now.
No, they still have flights to the UK, for which they reserve a couple of
"non-Schengen" gates.
Alan Harrison
Oct 24th 2006, 10:46 pm
#114
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:14:30 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
> I agree with Giovanni on this. Pronouns (he, she) are words, after
> all. This is gender, not sex.
We'll have to agree to disagree, Barbara. Sinclair's point (and mine) is
that they refer to sex rather than an (apparently) arbitrary gender which
makes the sun masculine and the moon feminine in the romance languages, but
t'other way round in German.
Alan Harrison
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:14:30 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
> I agree with Giovanni on this. Pronouns (he, she) are words, after
> all. This is gender, not sex.
We'll have to agree to disagree, Barbara. Sinclair's point (and mine) is
that they refer to sex rather than an (apparently) arbitrary gender which
makes the sun masculine and the moon feminine in the romance languages, but
t'other way round in German.
Alan Harrison
Oct 24th 2006, 10:52 pm
#115
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:39:24 +0100,
[email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:21:58 +0100,
>> [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
>> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>>
>> >David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and
>> >deansgate <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Giovanni Drogo <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Tue, 24 Oct 2006, B Vaughan wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > >They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
>> >> > > >even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
>> >> >
>> >> > The booths I remember at the entrance of the old "international
>> >> > departures" at Linate were surely manned by police. One of their main
>> >> > task was to ensure that Italians leaving for extra-EU countries have
>> >> > paid the annual stamp duty on passport.
>> >> >
>> >> > I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
>> >> > are Schengen now. At Malpensa Schengen and non-Schengen is separate.
>> >> > Last time I flew out-of-Schengen (UK) I can't however remember whether
>> >> > the passport check by police (one among too many) took place at a booth,
>> >> > or while standing in a looong queue, it was a messy August Saturday.
>> >>
>> >> Police wouldn't have checked your passport when leaving the UK. The
>> >> passport checks would have been at check-in, before security, and then
>> >> before boarding the flight.
>> >
>> >Oh, and they're not passport checks in the immigation sense, as the UK
>> >doesn't do exit control. It's for 'security' and so the airline thinks
>> >they know you are who you say you are.
>>
>> Passport control has been devolved to airlines and ferry companies.
>It's not passport control- it is checking the identity of passengers,
>that's all. The UK doesn't have exit control.
It is checking that you have a valid passport. Airlines and ferry
companies are responsible for the cost of passengers refused entrance
at the other end and are also fined GBP2K for each occurrence.
--
Martin
[email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:21:58 +0100,
>> [email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
>> the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>>
>> >David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and
>> >deansgate <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Giovanni Drogo <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Tue, 24 Oct 2006, B Vaughan wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > >They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
>> >> > > >even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
>> >> >
>> >> > The booths I remember at the entrance of the old "international
>> >> > departures" at Linate were surely manned by police. One of their main
>> >> > task was to ensure that Italians leaving for extra-EU countries have
>> >> > paid the annual stamp duty on passport.
>> >> >
>> >> > I am not sure they are there anymore, probably all flights from Linate
>> >> > are Schengen now. At Malpensa Schengen and non-Schengen is separate.
>> >> > Last time I flew out-of-Schengen (UK) I can't however remember whether
>> >> > the passport check by police (one among too many) took place at a booth,
>> >> > or while standing in a looong queue, it was a messy August Saturday.
>> >>
>> >> Police wouldn't have checked your passport when leaving the UK. The
>> >> passport checks would have been at check-in, before security, and then
>> >> before boarding the flight.
>> >
>> >Oh, and they're not passport checks in the immigation sense, as the UK
>> >doesn't do exit control. It's for 'security' and so the airline thinks
>> >they know you are who you say you are.
>>
>> Passport control has been devolved to airlines and ferry companies.
>It's not passport control- it is checking the identity of passengers,
>that's all. The UK doesn't have exit control.
It is checking that you have a valid passport. Airlines and ferry
companies are responsible for the cost of passengers refused entrance
at the other end and are also fined GBP2K for each occurrence.
--
Martin
Oct 24th 2006, 11:10 pm
#116
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 12:11:40 +0100, in rec.travel.europe, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this:
... "ALAN HARRISON" <[email protected]> wrote:
...
... >
... >"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
... >news:[email protected].. .
... >> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:14:30 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
... >
... >> I agree with Giovanni on this. Pronouns (he, she) are words, after
... >> all. This is gender, not sex.
... >
... >We'll have to agree to disagree, Barbara. Sinclair's point (and mine) is
... >that they refer to sex rather than an (apparently) arbitrary gender which
... >makes the sun masculine and the moon feminine in the romance languages, but
... >t'other way round in German.
... >
... But can you trump the Gaelic word "cail�n", which means "girl" and is
... masculine?
"Breast" and "uterus" are masculine in French.
<[email protected]> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this:
... "ALAN HARRISON" <[email protected]> wrote:
...
... >
... >"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
... >news:[email protected].. .
... >> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:14:30 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
... >
... >> I agree with Giovanni on this. Pronouns (he, she) are words, after
... >> all. This is gender, not sex.
... >
... >We'll have to agree to disagree, Barbara. Sinclair's point (and mine) is
... >that they refer to sex rather than an (apparently) arbitrary gender which
... >makes the sun masculine and the moon feminine in the romance languages, but
... >t'other way round in German.
... >
... But can you trump the Gaelic word "cail�n", which means "girl" and is
... masculine?
"Breast" and "uterus" are masculine in French.
Oct 24th 2006, 11:11 pm
#117
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
"ALAN HARRISON" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:14:30 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
>> I agree with Giovanni on this. Pronouns (he, she) are words, after
>> all. This is gender, not sex.
>We'll have to agree to disagree, Barbara. Sinclair's point (and mine) is
>that they refer to sex rather than an (apparently) arbitrary gender which
>makes the sun masculine and the moon feminine in the romance languages, but
>t'other way round in German.
But can you trump the Gaelic word "cail�n", which means "girl" and is
masculine?
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/
>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:14:30 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
>> I agree with Giovanni on this. Pronouns (he, she) are words, after
>> all. This is gender, not sex.
>We'll have to agree to disagree, Barbara. Sinclair's point (and mine) is
>that they refer to sex rather than an (apparently) arbitrary gender which
>makes the sun masculine and the moon feminine in the romance languages, but
>t'other way round in German.
But can you trump the Gaelic word "cail�n", which means "girl" and is
masculine?
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
My travel writing: http://www.iol.ie/~draoi/
Oct 24th 2006, 11:20 pm
#118
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006, David Horne, _the_ chancellor of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate wrote:
> It's not passport control- it is checking the identity of passengers,
> that's all. The UK doesn't have exit control.
We were originally talking of Italy. Apparently two of the main reasons
for "police" checking on exit in Italy (besides the obvious one, but
unlikely to occur ofter, to capture wanted criminals) were :
- checking the passport validity (dates)
- checking the payment of the annual stamp duty
But of course they apply mainly or exclusiverly, specially the second
one, to italian citizens.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected] is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
> It's not passport control- it is checking the identity of passengers,
> that's all. The UK doesn't have exit control.
We were originally talking of Italy. Apparently two of the main reasons
for "police" checking on exit in Italy (besides the obvious one, but
unlikely to occur ofter, to capture wanted criminals) were :
- checking the passport validity (dates)
- checking the payment of the annual stamp duty
But of course they apply mainly or exclusiverly, specially the second
one, to italian citizens.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected] is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
Oct 24th 2006, 11:29 pm
#119
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006, ALAN HARRISON wrote:
> We'll have to agree to disagree, Barbara. Sinclair's point (and mine) is
> that they refer to sex rather than an (apparently) arbitrary gender which
> makes the sun masculine and the moon feminine in the romance languages, but
> t'other way round in German.
We had a similar discussion on it.cultura.linguistica a while ago. Now,
I fully agree that gender for inanimated objects is fully arbitrary in
the european languages which have it. But grammatical gender is
something some languages have without any reference to sex (I am told
that swahili has several nominal classes according to the "type" of
object), and I was also told that the original (indo-european) genders
had nothing to do with sex and were only later labelled masculine,
feminine and neuter.
My way of expressing things (which I believe is correct from an
historical point of view) is that English has VESTIGIAL genders (in the
personal pronouns) and VESTIGIAL cases (also in the personal pronouns).
Italian has VESTIGIAL cases but "live" genders. German and Russian
have both "live" cases and genders.
At this point it becomes just a way of labelling things (or, as we say,
a "question of goat wool" :-) )
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected] is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
> We'll have to agree to disagree, Barbara. Sinclair's point (and mine) is
> that they refer to sex rather than an (apparently) arbitrary gender which
> makes the sun masculine and the moon feminine in the romance languages, but
> t'other way round in German.
We had a similar discussion on it.cultura.linguistica a while ago. Now,
I fully agree that gender for inanimated objects is fully arbitrary in
the european languages which have it. But grammatical gender is
something some languages have without any reference to sex (I am told
that swahili has several nominal classes according to the "type" of
object), and I was also told that the original (indo-european) genders
had nothing to do with sex and were only later labelled masculine,
feminine and neuter.
My way of expressing things (which I believe is correct from an
historical point of view) is that English has VESTIGIAL genders (in the
personal pronouns) and VESTIGIAL cases (also in the personal pronouns).
Italian has VESTIGIAL cases but "live" genders. German and Russian
have both "live" cases and genders.
At this point it becomes just a way of labelling things (or, as we say,
a "question of goat wool" :-) )
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected] is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
Oct 25th 2006, 3:44 am
#120
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 12:11:40 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"ALAN HARRISON" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]. ..
>>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:14:30 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
>>> I agree with Giovanni on this. Pronouns (he, she) are words, after
>>> all. This is gender, not sex.
>>We'll have to agree to disagree, Barbara. Sinclair's point (and mine) is
>>that they refer to sex rather than an (apparently) arbitrary gender which
>>makes the sun masculine and the moon feminine in the romance languages, but
>>t'other way round in German.
>But can you trump the Gaelic word "cail�n", which means "girl" and is
>masculine?
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"ALAN HARRISON" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]. ..
>>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:14:30 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
>>> I agree with Giovanni on this. Pronouns (he, she) are words, after
>>> all. This is gender, not sex.
>>We'll have to agree to disagree, Barbara. Sinclair's point (and mine) is
>>that they refer to sex rather than an (apparently) arbitrary gender which
>>makes the sun masculine and the moon feminine in the romance languages, but
>>t'other way round in German.
>But can you trump the Gaelic word "cail�n", which means "girl" and is
>masculine?
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
