police registration in italy?
Oct 21st 2006, 6:10 pm
#46
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:20:51 -0700, "Ian Burton"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>That's a bit of a stretch. I used to listen to two friends in my Italian
>office who, having completed lessons with a teacher of English, practiced
>with each other in a tongue that brought tears to my eyes. The woman who
>taught them should burn in eternal flames. They paid good money for their
>lessons and had no way to know they were being taken. In my experience,
>they were not alone.
Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
teaching couldn't be any worse. The private language schools usually
use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
teachers.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
<[email protected]> wrote:
>That's a bit of a stretch. I used to listen to two friends in my Italian
>office who, having completed lessons with a teacher of English, practiced
>with each other in a tongue that brought tears to my eyes. The woman who
>taught them should burn in eternal flames. They paid good money for their
>lessons and had no way to know they were being taken. In my experience,
>they were not alone.
Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
teaching couldn't be any worse. The private language schools usually
use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
teachers.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Oct 21st 2006, 9:37 pm
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:10:35 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:20:51 -0700, "Ian Burton"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>That's a bit of a stretch. I used to listen to two friends in my Italian
>>office who, having completed lessons with a teacher of English, practiced
>>with each other in a tongue that brought tears to my eyes. The woman who
>>taught them should burn in eternal flames. They paid good money for their
>>lessons and had no way to know they were being taken. In my experience,
>>they were not alone.
>Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
>from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
>Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
>teaching couldn't be any worse. The private language schools usually
>use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
>familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
>teachers.
You are spot on about the teachers in this country. They have almost
never spent time in an English speaking country, and do little more
than teach grammar, which does little to help people learn the
language. IMO they would be better off just showing the kids a movie
in English once a week.
I don't even know if that ESL certificate is of great importance. What
is important is having someone who actually is mother tongue so they
can hear how it's used, and at least hear a proper accent, plus
exercise speaking.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
>On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:20:51 -0700, "Ian Burton"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>That's a bit of a stretch. I used to listen to two friends in my Italian
>>office who, having completed lessons with a teacher of English, practiced
>>with each other in a tongue that brought tears to my eyes. The woman who
>>taught them should burn in eternal flames. They paid good money for their
>>lessons and had no way to know they were being taken. In my experience,
>>they were not alone.
>Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
>from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
>Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
>teaching couldn't be any worse. The private language schools usually
>use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
>familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
>teachers.
You are spot on about the teachers in this country. They have almost
never spent time in an English speaking country, and do little more
than teach grammar, which does little to help people learn the
language. IMO they would be better off just showing the kids a movie
in English once a week.
I don't even know if that ESL certificate is of great importance. What
is important is having someone who actually is mother tongue so they
can hear how it's used, and at least hear a proper accent, plus
exercise speaking.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
Oct 22nd 2006, 3:02 am
#48
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
B Vaughan wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:20:51 -0700, "Ian Burton"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> That's a bit of a stretch. I used to listen to two friends in my
>> Italian office who, having completed lessons with a teacher of
>> English, practiced with each other in a tongue that brought tears to
>> my eyes. The woman who taught them should burn in eternal flames.
>> They paid good money for their lessons and had no way to know they
>> were being taken. In my experience, they were not alone.
> Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
> from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
> Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
> teaching couldn't be any worse. The private language schools usually
> use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
> familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
> teachers.
I'm with you, completely. For any language, it's far better to learn from a
native speaker than from the best teacher who isn't a native.
The same of true of translations, for exactly the same reason. Translators
should be native speakers of the language they are translating into, not the
language they are translating from. Otherwise you end up with Japlish.
--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:20:51 -0700, "Ian Burton"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> That's a bit of a stretch. I used to listen to two friends in my
>> Italian office who, having completed lessons with a teacher of
>> English, practiced with each other in a tongue that brought tears to
>> my eyes. The woman who taught them should burn in eternal flames.
>> They paid good money for their lessons and had no way to know they
>> were being taken. In my experience, they were not alone.
> Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
> from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
> Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
> teaching couldn't be any worse. The private language schools usually
> use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
> familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
> teachers.
I'm with you, completely. For any language, it's far better to learn from a
native speaker than from the best teacher who isn't a native.
The same of true of translations, for exactly the same reason. Translators
should be native speakers of the language they are translating into, not the
language they are translating from. Otherwise you end up with Japlish.
--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup
Oct 22nd 2006, 3:06 am
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:20:51 -0700, "Ian Burton"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>That's a bit of a stretch. I used to listen to two friends in my Italian
>>office who, having completed lessons with a teacher of English, practiced
>>with each other in a tongue that brought tears to my eyes. The woman who
>>taught them should burn in eternal flames. They paid good money for their
>>lessons and had no way to know they were being taken. In my experience,
>>they were not alone.
> Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
> from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
> Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
> teaching couldn't be any worse.
Trust me. It can be much worse!
BTW, how many of the high school French teachers in the US are native born
French? Many do a very fine job. Not all, but many.
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)
The private language schools usually
> use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
> familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
> teachers.
> --
> Barbara Vaughan
> My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot
> it
> I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:20:51 -0700, "Ian Burton"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>That's a bit of a stretch. I used to listen to two friends in my Italian
>>office who, having completed lessons with a teacher of English, practiced
>>with each other in a tongue that brought tears to my eyes. The woman who
>>taught them should burn in eternal flames. They paid good money for their
>>lessons and had no way to know they were being taken. In my experience,
>>they were not alone.
> Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
> from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
> Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
> teaching couldn't be any worse.
Trust me. It can be much worse!
BTW, how many of the high school French teachers in the US are native born
French? Many do a very fine job. Not all, but many.
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)
The private language schools usually
> use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
> familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
> teachers.
> --
> Barbara Vaughan
> My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot
> it
> I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Oct 22nd 2006, 3:31 am
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:37:29 +0200, Dave Frightens Me
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:10:35 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
>>Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
>>from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
>>Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
>>teaching couldn't be any worse. The private language schools usually
>>use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
>>familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
>>teachers.
>I don't even know if that ESL certificate is of great importance. What
>is important is having someone who actually is mother tongue so they
>can hear how it's used, and at least hear a proper accent, plus
>exercise speaking.
I think a language teacher needs to have some training in teaching a
foreign language. When I first came here, I took an "Italian for
foreigners" course at the night school. The teacher was a middle
school Italian language teacher, but he had no concept of the
difference between teaching Italian to 12-year-olds Italians and
teaching Italian to German adults. He would give us worksheets of the
type they used in middle school, which were usually things we had no
trouble with at all. (Mostly mistakes made by kids who grew up
speaking dialect.) Then he wouldn't understand why we had trouble
with other things that seemed easier to him. Plus he tried to get us
to say "egli" (a more formal third person pronoun) instead of "lui",
and to memorize the preterite (passato remoto) of obscure irregular
verbs. (This is a tense that's little used in everyday speech.) But
most of all, the problem was that he gave us lots of grammar drill,
but very little practice speaking.
I have studied linguistics and the history of the English language,
but there were lots of things about teaching it as a foreign language
that I would never have thought of if I hadn't read some ESL books on
my own.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:10:35 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
>>Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
>>from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
>>Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
>>teaching couldn't be any worse. The private language schools usually
>>use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
>>familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
>>teachers.
>I don't even know if that ESL certificate is of great importance. What
>is important is having someone who actually is mother tongue so they
>can hear how it's used, and at least hear a proper accent, plus
>exercise speaking.
I think a language teacher needs to have some training in teaching a
foreign language. When I first came here, I took an "Italian for
foreigners" course at the night school. The teacher was a middle
school Italian language teacher, but he had no concept of the
difference between teaching Italian to 12-year-olds Italians and
teaching Italian to German adults. He would give us worksheets of the
type they used in middle school, which were usually things we had no
trouble with at all. (Mostly mistakes made by kids who grew up
speaking dialect.) Then he wouldn't understand why we had trouble
with other things that seemed easier to him. Plus he tried to get us
to say "egli" (a more formal third person pronoun) instead of "lui",
and to memorize the preterite (passato remoto) of obscure irregular
verbs. (This is a tense that's little used in everyday speech.) But
most of all, the problem was that he gave us lots of grammar drill,
but very little practice speaking.
I have studied linguistics and the history of the English language,
but there were lots of things about teaching it as a foreign language
that I would never have thought of if I hadn't read some ESL books on
my own.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Oct 22nd 2006, 5:17 am
#51
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:06:21 -0700, "Ian Burton"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
>> from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
>> Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
>> teaching couldn't be any worse.
>Trust me. It can be much worse!
>BTW, how many of the high school French teachers in the US are native born
>French? Many do a very fine job. Not all, but many.
I don't know, at the national level. But in my high school, and also
in the high school my kids went to, all of the foreign language
teachers either were native speakers or close. One French teacher in
my kids' high school was actually Italian, but she had spent a good
deal of time in France. She taught both Italian and French. There
wasn't much demand for Italian, and even French had fallen off a lot
by then. Spanish is the most studied language at the pre-university
level in the US, as it's the most useful to an American. There's no
shortage of native born Spanish teachers in the US.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
>> from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
>> Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
>> teaching couldn't be any worse.
>Trust me. It can be much worse!
>BTW, how many of the high school French teachers in the US are native born
>French? Many do a very fine job. Not all, but many.
I don't know, at the national level. But in my high school, and also
in the high school my kids went to, all of the foreign language
teachers either were native speakers or close. One French teacher in
my kids' high school was actually Italian, but she had spent a good
deal of time in France. She taught both Italian and French. There
wasn't much demand for Italian, and even French had fallen off a lot
by then. Spanish is the most studied language at the pre-university
level in the US, as it's the most useful to an American. There's no
shortage of native born Spanish teachers in the US.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Oct 22nd 2006, 8:25 am
#52
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 17:31:43 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:37:29 +0200, Dave Frightens Me
><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:10:35 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
>>>from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
>>>Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
>>>teaching couldn't be any worse. The private language schools usually
>>>use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
>>>familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
>>>teachers.
>>I don't even know if that ESL certificate is of great importance. What
>>is important is having someone who actually is mother tongue so they
>>can hear how it's used, and at least hear a proper accent, plus
>>exercise speaking.
>I think a language teacher needs to have some training in teaching a
>foreign language. When I first came here, I took an "Italian for
>foreigners" course at the night school. The teacher was a middle
>school Italian language teacher, but he had no concept of the
>difference between teaching Italian to 12-year-olds Italians and
>teaching Italian to German adults. He would give us worksheets of the
>type they used in middle school, which were usually things we had no
>trouble with at all. (Mostly mistakes made by kids who grew up
>speaking dialect.) Then he wouldn't understand why we had trouble
>with other things that seemed easier to him. Plus he tried to get us
>to say "egli" (a more formal third person pronoun) instead of "lui",
I read about that somewhere. In fact, I recall a guy using it once in
a business meeting. I think he was just trying to lose me!
>and to memorize the preterite (passato remoto) of obscure irregular
>verbs. (This is a tense that's little used in everyday speech.) But
>most of all, the problem was that he gave us lots of grammar drill,
>but very little practice speaking.
So in Le Marche passato remoto is not used? I was wondering that. It's
completely unused here, except for in literature. I can understand it
from reading, but have never heard it actually used, even when dealing
with people from the south, who supposedly use it much more.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
>On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:37:29 +0200, Dave Frightens Me
><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:10:35 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
>>>from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
>>>Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
>>>teaching couldn't be any worse. The private language schools usually
>>>use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
>>>familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
>>>teachers.
>>I don't even know if that ESL certificate is of great importance. What
>>is important is having someone who actually is mother tongue so they
>>can hear how it's used, and at least hear a proper accent, plus
>>exercise speaking.
>I think a language teacher needs to have some training in teaching a
>foreign language. When I first came here, I took an "Italian for
>foreigners" course at the night school. The teacher was a middle
>school Italian language teacher, but he had no concept of the
>difference between teaching Italian to 12-year-olds Italians and
>teaching Italian to German adults. He would give us worksheets of the
>type they used in middle school, which were usually things we had no
>trouble with at all. (Mostly mistakes made by kids who grew up
>speaking dialect.) Then he wouldn't understand why we had trouble
>with other things that seemed easier to him. Plus he tried to get us
>to say "egli" (a more formal third person pronoun) instead of "lui",
I read about that somewhere. In fact, I recall a guy using it once in
a business meeting. I think he was just trying to lose me!
>and to memorize the preterite (passato remoto) of obscure irregular
>verbs. (This is a tense that's little used in everyday speech.) But
>most of all, the problem was that he gave us lots of grammar drill,
>but very little practice speaking.
So in Le Marche passato remoto is not used? I was wondering that. It's
completely unused here, except for in literature. I can understand it
from reading, but have never heard it actually used, even when dealing
with people from the south, who supposedly use it much more.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
Oct 22nd 2006, 8:40 am
#53
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:06:21 -0700, "Ian Burton"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
>>> from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
>>> Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
>>> teaching couldn't be any worse.
>>Trust me. It can be much worse!
>>BTW, how many of the high school French teachers in the US are native born
>>French? Many do a very fine job. Not all, but many.
> I don't know, at the national level. But in my high school, and also
> in the high school my kids went to, all of the foreign language
> teachers either were native speakers or close. One French teacher in
> my kids' high school was actually Italian, but she had spent a good
> deal of time in France. She taught both Italian and French. There
> wasn't much demand for Italian, and even French had fallen off a lot
> by then. Spanish is the most studied language at the pre-university
> level in the US, as it's the most useful to an American. There's no
> shortage of native born Spanish teachers in the US.
About native speakers of some form of Spanish, truer woids was never spoke.
As for other languages, few are native speakers at the high school lever. I
attended a prestigious New York City high school, and my excellent teacher
of French also so taught German, Spanish, and Latin. She spoke English with
a mild accent, but no one I knew could identify it. Perhaps she was an
Esperantonese. :-)
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:06:21 -0700, "Ian Burton"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
>>> from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
>>> Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
>>> teaching couldn't be any worse.
>>Trust me. It can be much worse!
>>BTW, how many of the high school French teachers in the US are native born
>>French? Many do a very fine job. Not all, but many.
> I don't know, at the national level. But in my high school, and also
> in the high school my kids went to, all of the foreign language
> teachers either were native speakers or close. One French teacher in
> my kids' high school was actually Italian, but she had spent a good
> deal of time in France. She taught both Italian and French. There
> wasn't much demand for Italian, and even French had fallen off a lot
> by then. Spanish is the most studied language at the pre-university
> level in the US, as it's the most useful to an American. There's no
> shortage of native born Spanish teachers in the US.
About native speakers of some form of Spanish, truer woids was never spoke.
As for other languages, few are native speakers at the high school lever. I
attended a prestigious New York City high school, and my excellent teacher
of French also so taught German, Spanish, and Latin. She spoke English with
a mild accent, but no one I knew could identify it. Perhaps she was an
Esperantonese. :-)
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)
Oct 22nd 2006, 9:00 am
#54
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:40:46 -0700, "Ian Burton"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>About native speakers of some form of Spanish, truer woids was never spoke.
>As for other languages, few are native speakers at the high school lever. I
>attended a prestigious New York City high school, and my excellent teacher
>of French also so taught German, Spanish, and Latin. She spoke English with
>a mild accent, but no one I knew could identify it. Perhaps she was an
>Esperantonese. :-)
I find it hard to believe that a prestigious school in New York
wouldn't have native speakers. In Princeton, they even had native
speakers in middle school. Actually, I realized after I sent the
letter that the woman who taught Italian and French was a middle
school teacher. (There was a big Italian community in Princeton, and
they offered Italian in deference to them; however, not many kids took
advantage of this, and they later dropped it.) In high school, my
daughter had a male teacher, who was French. When were you in school
in New York, if I may ask? I was in high school in the early 1960s. My
kids were in Princeton high school in the early 1990s. I wouldn't say
my high school was prestigious, although it was a good high school in
the suburbs of Philadelphia. I took both Spanish and German, and had
native speakers to teach both languages. Princeton, well, they think
they define prestige, but I wasn't very impressed with the school. But
they did have native speakers. (My other daughter took Latin and had
an ancient Roman teacher.)
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
<[email protected]> wrote:
>About native speakers of some form of Spanish, truer woids was never spoke.
>As for other languages, few are native speakers at the high school lever. I
>attended a prestigious New York City high school, and my excellent teacher
>of French also so taught German, Spanish, and Latin. She spoke English with
>a mild accent, but no one I knew could identify it. Perhaps she was an
>Esperantonese. :-)
I find it hard to believe that a prestigious school in New York
wouldn't have native speakers. In Princeton, they even had native
speakers in middle school. Actually, I realized after I sent the
letter that the woman who taught Italian and French was a middle
school teacher. (There was a big Italian community in Princeton, and
they offered Italian in deference to them; however, not many kids took
advantage of this, and they later dropped it.) In high school, my
daughter had a male teacher, who was French. When were you in school
in New York, if I may ask? I was in high school in the early 1960s. My
kids were in Princeton high school in the early 1990s. I wouldn't say
my high school was prestigious, although it was a good high school in
the suburbs of Philadelphia. I took both Spanish and German, and had
native speakers to teach both languages. Princeton, well, they think
they define prestige, but I wasn't very impressed with the school. But
they did have native speakers. (My other daughter took Latin and had
an ancient Roman teacher.)
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Oct 22nd 2006, 5:23 pm
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:37:29 +0200, Dave Frightens Me
> <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:10:35 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
>>>from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
>>>Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
>>>teaching couldn't be any worse. The private language schools usually
>>>use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
>>>familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
>>>teachers.
>>I don't even know if that ESL certificate is of great importance. What
>>is important is having someone who actually is mother tongue so they
>>can hear how it's used, and at least hear a proper accent, plus
>>exercise speaking.
> I think a language teacher needs to have some training in teaching a
> foreign language. When I first came here, I took an "Italian for
> foreigners" course at the night school. The teacher was a middle
> school Italian language teacher, but he had no concept of the
> difference between teaching Italian to 12-year-olds Italians and
> teaching Italian to German adults. He would give us worksheets of the
> type they used in middle school, which were usually things we had no
> trouble with at all. (Mostly mistakes made by kids who grew up
> speaking dialect.) Then he wouldn't understand why we had trouble
> with other things that seemed easier to him. Plus he tried to get us
> to say "egli" (a more formal third person pronoun) instead of "lui",
> and to memorize the preterite (passato remoto) of obscure irregular
> verbs. (This is a tense that's little used in everyday speech.) But
> most of all, the problem was that he gave us lots of grammar drill,
> but very little practice speaking.
> I have studied linguistics and the history of the English language,
> but there were lots of things about teaching it as a foreign language
> that I would never have thought of if I hadn't read some ESL books on
> my own.
> --
> Barbara Vaughan
> My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot
> it
> I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
In facts, the use of Lui and Loro as a subject is wrong.
Lui and Loro are used only as complements.
In the spoken language, Lui and Loro are commonly used.. but that denotes a
low knowledge of the Italian Language.
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:37:29 +0200, Dave Frightens Me
> <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>>On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:10:35 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Many Italians learn English at the high school or university level
>>>from teacher who are Italian and can't speak the language themselves.
>>>Learning from a native English speaker who might not be competent at
>>>teaching couldn't be any worse. The private language schools usually
>>>use teachers whose native tongue is English. Most of the ones I'm
>>>familiar with require an ESL certificate or equivalent of their
>>>teachers.
>>I don't even know if that ESL certificate is of great importance. What
>>is important is having someone who actually is mother tongue so they
>>can hear how it's used, and at least hear a proper accent, plus
>>exercise speaking.
> I think a language teacher needs to have some training in teaching a
> foreign language. When I first came here, I took an "Italian for
> foreigners" course at the night school. The teacher was a middle
> school Italian language teacher, but he had no concept of the
> difference between teaching Italian to 12-year-olds Italians and
> teaching Italian to German adults. He would give us worksheets of the
> type they used in middle school, which were usually things we had no
> trouble with at all. (Mostly mistakes made by kids who grew up
> speaking dialect.) Then he wouldn't understand why we had trouble
> with other things that seemed easier to him. Plus he tried to get us
> to say "egli" (a more formal third person pronoun) instead of "lui",
> and to memorize the preterite (passato remoto) of obscure irregular
> verbs. (This is a tense that's little used in everyday speech.) But
> most of all, the problem was that he gave us lots of grammar drill,
> but very little practice speaking.
> I have studied linguistics and the history of the English language,
> but there were lots of things about teaching it as a foreign language
> that I would never have thought of if I hadn't read some ESL books on
> my own.
> --
> Barbara Vaughan
> My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot
> it
> I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
In facts, the use of Lui and Loro as a subject is wrong.
Lui and Loro are used only as complements.
In the spoken language, Lui and Loro are commonly used.. but that denotes a
low knowledge of the Italian Language.
Oct 22nd 2006, 7:26 pm
#56
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:23:16 GMT, "tile" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
>news:[email protected].. .
>> .... When I first came here, I took an "Italian for
>> foreigners" course at the night school. The teacher was a middle
>> school Italian language teacher, but he had no concept of the
>> difference between teaching Italian to 12-year-olds Italians and
>> teaching Italian to German adults. ... he tried to get us
>> to say "egli" (a more formal third person pronoun) instead of "lui",
>In facts, the use of Lui and Loro as a subject is wrong.
>Lui and Loro are used only as complements.
>In the spoken language, Lui and Loro are commonly used.. but that denotes a
>low knowledge of the Italian Language.
I would say "universally used". In the spoken language, I have *never*
heard anyone use "egli" as a subject. Even in the written language,
"lui" is used except in very stuffy writing. L'Espresso and Corriere
della Sera, for example, use "lui". This is a case where the official
grammar needs to catch up with usage. It is ridiculous to teach
foreigners to talk in a way that no one else does. In fact, our
textbook used "lui" and "loro" as subjects.
I just looked up "lui" in my Zingarelli; it gives as the first meaning
"lui" as a complement. As the second meaning it lists all the
instances when "lui" is used as a subject. First in the spoken
language and in familiar language. Then when the subject doesn't begin
the phrase: when the subject follows the verb; when the subject is
contrasted with another subject; in emphatic expressions; when
preceded by "also" or "neither"; and so on. There are so many
exceptions to the use of "egli" as a subject, that it's no wonder
people just dropped it and began using "lui" in every instance.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
>news:[email protected].. .
>> .... When I first came here, I took an "Italian for
>> foreigners" course at the night school. The teacher was a middle
>> school Italian language teacher, but he had no concept of the
>> difference between teaching Italian to 12-year-olds Italians and
>> teaching Italian to German adults. ... he tried to get us
>> to say "egli" (a more formal third person pronoun) instead of "lui",
>In facts, the use of Lui and Loro as a subject is wrong.
>Lui and Loro are used only as complements.
>In the spoken language, Lui and Loro are commonly used.. but that denotes a
>low knowledge of the Italian Language.
I would say "universally used". In the spoken language, I have *never*
heard anyone use "egli" as a subject. Even in the written language,
"lui" is used except in very stuffy writing. L'Espresso and Corriere
della Sera, for example, use "lui". This is a case where the official
grammar needs to catch up with usage. It is ridiculous to teach
foreigners to talk in a way that no one else does. In fact, our
textbook used "lui" and "loro" as subjects.
I just looked up "lui" in my Zingarelli; it gives as the first meaning
"lui" as a complement. As the second meaning it lists all the
instances when "lui" is used as a subject. First in the spoken
language and in familiar language. Then when the subject doesn't begin
the phrase: when the subject follows the verb; when the subject is
contrasted with another subject; in emphatic expressions; when
preceded by "also" or "neither"; and so on. There are so many
exceptions to the use of "egli" as a subject, that it's no wonder
people just dropped it and began using "lui" in every instance.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Oct 22nd 2006, 8:01 pm
#57
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:23:16 GMT, "tile" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>news:[email protected]. ..
>>> .... When I first came here, I took an "Italian for
>>> foreigners" course at the night school. The teacher was a middle
>>> school Italian language teacher, but he had no concept of the
>>> difference between teaching Italian to 12-year-olds Italians and
>>> teaching Italian to German adults. ... he tried to get us
>>> to say "egli" (a more formal third person pronoun) instead of "lui",
>>In facts, the use of Lui and Loro as a subject is wrong.
>>Lui and Loro are used only as complements.
>>In the spoken language, Lui and Loro are commonly used.. but that denotes
>>a
>>low knowledge of the Italian Language.
> I would say "universally used". In the spoken language, I have *never*
> heard anyone use "egli" as a subject. Even in the written language,
> "lui" is used except in very stuffy writing. L'Espresso and Corriere
> della Sera, for example, use "lui". This is a case where the official
> grammar needs to catch up with usage. It is ridiculous to teach
> foreigners to talk in a way that no one else does. In fact, our
> textbook used "lui" and "loro" as subjects.
> I just looked up "lui" in my Zingarelli; it gives as the first meaning
> "lui" as a complement. As the second meaning it lists all the
> instances when "lui" is used as a subject. First in the spoken
> language and in familiar language. Then when the subject doesn't begin
> the phrase: when the subject follows the verb; when the subject is
> contrasted with another subject; in emphatic expressions; when
> preceded by "also" or "neither"; and so on. There are so many
> exceptions to the use of "egli" as a subject, that it's no wonder
> people just dropped it and began using "lui" in every instance.
> --
> Barbara Vaughan
> My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot
> it
> I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
as you might well know.. the use of subject is not necessary in italian..
as from the verb you know who the subject is.
of course. lui and loro are used in the common language.
Television and newspapers are not a good example. as it is very well know
that the language they use is not always correct. ( In Television. a Roman
dialect / common italian is commonly spoken.. )
it is now common to use the .. tu.. even for persons that are much older or
not known.
that is also very impolite and uncorrect.
yesterday in TV the write Aldo Busi told a person..
please address to me as .. Lei..
otherwise we will forget how to speak italian correctly.
there are many things that are not correct in the italian language.
the use of Imperfetto instead of Congiuntivo.. and so on
but that denotes a very low level of culture.
definetely
Lui and Loro are not correct as subjects.
Egli or Essi are the correct subjects. ( In the old times they also used
Eglino.. )
as they do not sound well.. people try to avoid them completely.
again. in good italian you do not need the subject.. unless you want to make
a comparison.
the same applies to latin.. In latin you rarely see subjects.
In the Dante Alighieri School of Italian Language they were teaching
students of Italian to use them as subject.
I did not have the time. but I promised myself I would give the teachers a
piece of my mind.
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:23:16 GMT, "tile" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>news:[email protected]. ..
>>> .... When I first came here, I took an "Italian for
>>> foreigners" course at the night school. The teacher was a middle
>>> school Italian language teacher, but he had no concept of the
>>> difference between teaching Italian to 12-year-olds Italians and
>>> teaching Italian to German adults. ... he tried to get us
>>> to say "egli" (a more formal third person pronoun) instead of "lui",
>>In facts, the use of Lui and Loro as a subject is wrong.
>>Lui and Loro are used only as complements.
>>In the spoken language, Lui and Loro are commonly used.. but that denotes
>>a
>>low knowledge of the Italian Language.
> I would say "universally used". In the spoken language, I have *never*
> heard anyone use "egli" as a subject. Even in the written language,
> "lui" is used except in very stuffy writing. L'Espresso and Corriere
> della Sera, for example, use "lui". This is a case where the official
> grammar needs to catch up with usage. It is ridiculous to teach
> foreigners to talk in a way that no one else does. In fact, our
> textbook used "lui" and "loro" as subjects.
> I just looked up "lui" in my Zingarelli; it gives as the first meaning
> "lui" as a complement. As the second meaning it lists all the
> instances when "lui" is used as a subject. First in the spoken
> language and in familiar language. Then when the subject doesn't begin
> the phrase: when the subject follows the verb; when the subject is
> contrasted with another subject; in emphatic expressions; when
> preceded by "also" or "neither"; and so on. There are so many
> exceptions to the use of "egli" as a subject, that it's no wonder
> people just dropped it and began using "lui" in every instance.
> --
> Barbara Vaughan
> My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot
> it
> I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
as you might well know.. the use of subject is not necessary in italian..
as from the verb you know who the subject is.
of course. lui and loro are used in the common language.
Television and newspapers are not a good example. as it is very well know
that the language they use is not always correct. ( In Television. a Roman
dialect / common italian is commonly spoken.. )
it is now common to use the .. tu.. even for persons that are much older or
not known.
that is also very impolite and uncorrect.
yesterday in TV the write Aldo Busi told a person..
please address to me as .. Lei..
otherwise we will forget how to speak italian correctly.
there are many things that are not correct in the italian language.
the use of Imperfetto instead of Congiuntivo.. and so on
but that denotes a very low level of culture.
definetely
Lui and Loro are not correct as subjects.
Egli or Essi are the correct subjects. ( In the old times they also used
Eglino.. )
as they do not sound well.. people try to avoid them completely.
again. in good italian you do not need the subject.. unless you want to make
a comparison.
the same applies to latin.. In latin you rarely see subjects.
In the Dante Alighieri School of Italian Language they were teaching
students of Italian to use them as subject.
I did not have the time. but I promised myself I would give the teachers a
piece of my mind.
Oct 22nd 2006, 9:25 pm
#58
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Ken Blake wrote:
> Just out of curiousity, what happens to you, in Italy or elsewhere, if you
> overstay the three-month period?
To ME and in Italy nothing, I'm a native and resident citizen :-)
I suspect also nothing will happen if you are a tourist from the EU or
other country not requiring a visa. No policeman checking your document
will have an immediate way to know when you entered the country (or
Schengen area). Different story if you are trying to get a job, or if
you are a "wanted" criminal.
If you are "extracomunitarian" (not EU citizen) BUT have proof of
identity with you, I presume you will receive a "foglio di via" telling
you that you have 5 days to leave the country at your own expenses. This
would apply if you have a stowaway look, I doubt if you have a tourist
look.
If you do not have proof of identity (most stowaways destroy it), you
will be detained for up to, I believe, 60 days in the so-called "First
Welcome Centres" (sic!) in order to identify you and your country of
origin. If budget allow you might be deported to your country of origin,
otherwise I presume you will get the "foglio di via" as above.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected] is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
> Just out of curiousity, what happens to you, in Italy or elsewhere, if you
> overstay the three-month period?
To ME and in Italy nothing, I'm a native and resident citizen :-)
I suspect also nothing will happen if you are a tourist from the EU or
other country not requiring a visa. No policeman checking your document
will have an immediate way to know when you entered the country (or
Schengen area). Different story if you are trying to get a job, or if
you are a "wanted" criminal.
If you are "extracomunitarian" (not EU citizen) BUT have proof of
identity with you, I presume you will receive a "foglio di via" telling
you that you have 5 days to leave the country at your own expenses. This
would apply if you have a stowaway look, I doubt if you have a tourist
look.
If you do not have proof of identity (most stowaways destroy it), you
will be detained for up to, I believe, 60 days in the so-called "First
Welcome Centres" (sic!) in order to identify you and your country of
origin. If budget allow you might be deported to your country of origin,
otherwise I presume you will get the "foglio di via" as above.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected] is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
Oct 22nd 2006, 9:37 pm
#59
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006, Dave Frightens Me wrote:
> Barbara Vaughan wrote:
> >and to memorize the preterite (passato remoto) of obscure irregular
> >verbs. (This is a tense that's little used in everyday speech.) But
> So in Le Marche passato remoto is not used? I was wondering that. It's
> completely unused here, except for in literature. I can understand it
I suppose Barbara can give more punctual answers (by the way, any
problem with the earthquake in Corinaldo ?) but AFAIK there is a
language border somewhere halfway in the Marche. The north (Pesaro) is
more alike Romagna, i.e. northern dialects. The south (Ascoli) is more
alike Abruzzi, i.e. southern dialects.
Anyhow, as I was just reminding somebody on another italian language NG,
the "passato remoto" is very rarely used in the north when speaking
in italian, and never when speaking dialect, but it did exist in the
dialects (for instance it is reported in a milanese grammar I have, and
was used by Carlo Porta, a famous milanese poet of Napoleon's times).
On the contrary the "passato prossimo" (the form with the auxiliary "to
have" or "to be", equivalent to English "I have done") does not exist at
all in some "extreme southern" dialects (it is a signature of them, an
"isoglottal line" used to mark dialect boundaries).
> >most of all, the problem was that he gave us lots of grammar drill,
> >but very little practice speaking.
Just for curiosity, did he teach you syntax, and in particular something
called "analisi logica" (the translation "logical analysis" can be
misleading if you do not know what this label applies to) ?
And if he did, did you find this alike or similar to something which is
done when teaching english to children in school in countries like UK or
US ?
We are questioning about this in the other NG I mentioned, somebody is
saying "analisi logica" was devised to teach latin and is not even
applicable to a language like English.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected] is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
> Barbara Vaughan wrote:
> >and to memorize the preterite (passato remoto) of obscure irregular
> >verbs. (This is a tense that's little used in everyday speech.) But
> So in Le Marche passato remoto is not used? I was wondering that. It's
> completely unused here, except for in literature. I can understand it
I suppose Barbara can give more punctual answers (by the way, any
problem with the earthquake in Corinaldo ?) but AFAIK there is a
language border somewhere halfway in the Marche. The north (Pesaro) is
more alike Romagna, i.e. northern dialects. The south (Ascoli) is more
alike Abruzzi, i.e. southern dialects.
Anyhow, as I was just reminding somebody on another italian language NG,
the "passato remoto" is very rarely used in the north when speaking
in italian, and never when speaking dialect, but it did exist in the
dialects (for instance it is reported in a milanese grammar I have, and
was used by Carlo Porta, a famous milanese poet of Napoleon's times).
On the contrary the "passato prossimo" (the form with the auxiliary "to
have" or "to be", equivalent to English "I have done") does not exist at
all in some "extreme southern" dialects (it is a signature of them, an
"isoglottal line" used to mark dialect boundaries).
> >most of all, the problem was that he gave us lots of grammar drill,
> >but very little practice speaking.
Just for curiosity, did he teach you syntax, and in particular something
called "analisi logica" (the translation "logical analysis" can be
misleading if you do not know what this label applies to) ?
And if he did, did you find this alike or similar to something which is
done when teaching english to children in school in countries like UK or
US ?
We are questioning about this in the other NG I mentioned, somebody is
saying "analisi logica" was devised to teach latin and is not even
applicable to a language like English.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected] is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.
Oct 22nd 2006, 11:17 pm
#60
Guest
Posts: n/a
Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
"Giovanni Drogo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] zoengr.vans.vg...
> Just for curiosity, did he teach you syntax, and in particular something
> called "analisi logica" (the translation "logical analysis" can be
> misleading if you do not know what this label applies to) ?
> And if he did, did you find this alike or similar to something which is
> done when teaching english to children in school in countries like UK or
> US ?
> We are questioning about this in the other NG I mentioned, somebody is
> saying "analisi logica" was devised to teach latin and is not even
> applicable to a language like English.
I wouldn't know what "analisi logica" is without a description of what it
does in Italian. I'm guessing that it may be akin to the "clause analysis"
which was taught in England when I was a kid (secondary school '58-'65). In
simple terms, taking the sentence, "If I see Marilyn Monroe, I shall snog
her", this would involve identifying "If I see MM" as a subordinate
conditional clause and "I shall snog her" as the main clause.
When I went on to read English lang and lit at university in my first
degree, I had to unlearn all this. In fact much of the English grammar
taught in schools was based on Latin, which it describes pretty well, and
applied to English, which it doesn't fit at all. The most glaring example is
perhaps the so-called "split infinitive", which makes Captain Kirk's
determination "to boldly go" a grammatical no-no. Some Victorian gent
decided that that part of an English verb which appears in dictionaries
(say, "love") could be equivalent to the Latin infinitive (say, "amare"),
and that it was often preceded by "to" (say, "All men ought to love God.").
Then a leap was made to say that "to love" was the infinitive and that it
should not be "split" by the insertion of an adverb. Too many adverbs would
be stylistically bad, were Captain Kirk to boldly, courageously,
steadfastly, valiantly and robustly go, but one adverb is hardly a eral
GRAMMATICAL error.
The other great no-no is the "double negative", where a spurious
mathematical logic is applied to language. "I haven't seen nobody" is
condemned as incorrect because two minuses are held to make a plus - "I
haveN'T seen NObody" = "I have seen somebody." Note that the "incorrect"
English sentence corresponds exactly to Italian "Non ho visto nessuno."
Alan Harrison
news:[email protected] zoengr.vans.vg...
> Just for curiosity, did he teach you syntax, and in particular something
> called "analisi logica" (the translation "logical analysis" can be
> misleading if you do not know what this label applies to) ?
> And if he did, did you find this alike or similar to something which is
> done when teaching english to children in school in countries like UK or
> US ?
> We are questioning about this in the other NG I mentioned, somebody is
> saying "analisi logica" was devised to teach latin and is not even
> applicable to a language like English.
I wouldn't know what "analisi logica" is without a description of what it
does in Italian. I'm guessing that it may be akin to the "clause analysis"
which was taught in England when I was a kid (secondary school '58-'65). In
simple terms, taking the sentence, "If I see Marilyn Monroe, I shall snog
her", this would involve identifying "If I see MM" as a subordinate
conditional clause and "I shall snog her" as the main clause.
When I went on to read English lang and lit at university in my first
degree, I had to unlearn all this. In fact much of the English grammar
taught in schools was based on Latin, which it describes pretty well, and
applied to English, which it doesn't fit at all. The most glaring example is
perhaps the so-called "split infinitive", which makes Captain Kirk's
determination "to boldly go" a grammatical no-no. Some Victorian gent
decided that that part of an English verb which appears in dictionaries
(say, "love") could be equivalent to the Latin infinitive (say, "amare"),
and that it was often preceded by "to" (say, "All men ought to love God.").
Then a leap was made to say that "to love" was the infinitive and that it
should not be "split" by the insertion of an adverb. Too many adverbs would
be stylistically bad, were Captain Kirk to boldly, courageously,
steadfastly, valiantly and robustly go, but one adverb is hardly a eral
GRAMMATICAL error.
The other great no-no is the "double negative", where a spurious
mathematical logic is applied to language. "I haven't seen nobody" is
condemned as incorrect because two minuses are held to make a plus - "I
haveN'T seen NObody" = "I have seen somebody." Note that the "incorrect"
English sentence corresponds exactly to Italian "Non ho visto nessuno."
Alan Harrison
