police registration in italy?
Oct 24th 2006, 4:05 am
#91
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:29:23 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (B
>Vaughan) wrote:
>> Unless one is trying to be facetiously emphatic, such as "We don't
>> want no damn grammar lessons.", the double negative doesn't aid
>> communication at all.
>There is one other, limited circumstance where it can be usefully
>employed:
>"You sat back and did nothing!" he said accusingly.
>"I didn't do nothing!" she said defensively.
However, that is correct usage; I consider "double negative" to mean
that which is a reinforcing reiteration of a negative.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (B
>Vaughan) wrote:
>> Unless one is trying to be facetiously emphatic, such as "We don't
>> want no damn grammar lessons.", the double negative doesn't aid
>> communication at all.
>There is one other, limited circumstance where it can be usefully
>employed:
>"You sat back and did nothing!" he said accusingly.
>"I didn't do nothing!" she said defensively.
However, that is correct usage; I consider "double negative" to mean
that which is a reinforcing reiteration of a negative.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Oct 24th 2006, 4:16 am
#92
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:52:53 +0200, Giovanni Drogo
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Well, there is no branch of civil service called "immigration" in Italy
>outside of the police. These sort of things are dealt by a branch of the
>police (polizia di frontiera, border police) ... and such branch has
>booths in airports. You will not be checked on exit if you are taking a
>flight to Schengen area, but if you go outside of it one of such
>policemen will surely ask for your documents.
I don't remember ever having a policeman check my documents on the way
out of Italy. Maybe my memory is faulty, but the people working the
security lines didn't seem to me to be police, but private security
personnel.
>Usually they are in a booth with a computer and wear a darkish uniform
>with a label "polizia di stato" somewhere. Not to be confused with
>Guardia di Finanza (lighter colour uniform and "yellow flames"
>emblem), which essentially cares about custom checks, nor with airport
>security which might be using private staff.
On the way into Italy, I certainly remember passing through these
booths, but not on the way out.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Well, there is no branch of civil service called "immigration" in Italy
>outside of the police. These sort of things are dealt by a branch of the
>police (polizia di frontiera, border police) ... and such branch has
>booths in airports. You will not be checked on exit if you are taking a
>flight to Schengen area, but if you go outside of it one of such
>policemen will surely ask for your documents.
I don't remember ever having a policeman check my documents on the way
out of Italy. Maybe my memory is faulty, but the people working the
security lines didn't seem to me to be police, but private security
personnel.
>Usually they are in a booth with a computer and wear a darkish uniform
>with a label "polizia di stato" somewhere. Not to be confused with
>Guardia di Finanza (lighter colour uniform and "yellow flames"
>emblem), which essentially cares about custom checks, nor with airport
>security which might be using private staff.
On the way into Italy, I certainly remember passing through these
booths, but not on the way out.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Oct 24th 2006, 4:22 am
#93
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:52:53 +0200, Giovanni Drogo
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Well, there is no branch of civil service called "immigration" in Italy
>>outside of the police. These sort of things are dealt by a branch of the
>>police (polizia di frontiera, border police) ... and such branch has
>>booths in airports. You will not be checked on exit if you are taking a
>>flight to Schengen area, but if you go outside of it one of such
>>policemen will surely ask for your documents.
> I don't remember ever having a policeman check my documents on the way
> out of Italy. Maybe my memory is faulty, but the people working the
> security lines didn't seem to me to be police, but private security
> personnel.
>>Usually they are in a booth with a computer and wear a darkish uniform
>>with a label "polizia di stato" somewhere. Not to be confused with
>>Guardia di Finanza (lighter colour uniform and "yellow flames"
>>emblem), which essentially cares about custom checks, nor with airport
>>security which might be using private staff.
> On the way into Italy, I certainly remember passing through these
> booths, but not on the way out.
I flew from Venice to London Gatwick a few weeks back and there was
certainly a Passport check just before the Gate area. For everyone.
JohnT
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:52:53 +0200, Giovanni Drogo
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Well, there is no branch of civil service called "immigration" in Italy
>>outside of the police. These sort of things are dealt by a branch of the
>>police (polizia di frontiera, border police) ... and such branch has
>>booths in airports. You will not be checked on exit if you are taking a
>>flight to Schengen area, but if you go outside of it one of such
>>policemen will surely ask for your documents.
> I don't remember ever having a policeman check my documents on the way
> out of Italy. Maybe my memory is faulty, but the people working the
> security lines didn't seem to me to be police, but private security
> personnel.
>>Usually they are in a booth with a computer and wear a darkish uniform
>>with a label "polizia di stato" somewhere. Not to be confused with
>>Guardia di Finanza (lighter colour uniform and "yellow flames"
>>emblem), which essentially cares about custom checks, nor with airport
>>security which might be using private staff.
> On the way into Italy, I certainly remember passing through these
> booths, but not on the way out.
I flew from Venice to London Gatwick a few weeks back and there was
certainly a Passport check just before the Gate area. For everyone.
JohnT
Oct 24th 2006, 4:22 am
#94
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:16:15 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:52:53 +0200, Giovanni Drogo
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>Well, there is no branch of civil service called "immigration" in Italy
>>outside of the police. These sort of things are dealt by a branch of the
>>police (polizia di frontiera, border police) ... and such branch has
>>booths in airports. You will not be checked on exit if you are taking a
>>flight to Schengen area, but if you go outside of it one of such
>>policemen will surely ask for your documents.
>I don't remember ever having a policeman check my documents on the way
>out of Italy. Maybe my memory is faulty, but the people working the
>security lines didn't seem to me to be police, but private security
>personnel.
They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
--
Martin
>On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:52:53 +0200, Giovanni Drogo
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>Well, there is no branch of civil service called "immigration" in Italy
>>outside of the police. These sort of things are dealt by a branch of the
>>police (polizia di frontiera, border police) ... and such branch has
>>booths in airports. You will not be checked on exit if you are taking a
>>flight to Schengen area, but if you go outside of it one of such
>>policemen will surely ask for your documents.
>I don't remember ever having a policeman check my documents on the way
>out of Italy. Maybe my memory is faulty, but the people working the
>security lines didn't seem to me to be police, but private security
>personnel.
They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
--
Martin
Oct 24th 2006, 4:33 am
#95
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 17:22:44 +0100, "JohnT"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:52:53 +0200, Giovanni Drogo
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Well, there is no branch of civil service called "immigration" in Italy
>>>outside of the police. These sort of things are dealt by a branch of the
>>>police (polizia di frontiera, border police) ... and such branch has
>>>booths in airports. You will not be checked on exit if you are taking a
>>>flight to Schengen area, but if you go outside of it one of such
>>>policemen will surely ask for your documents.
>> I don't remember ever having a policeman check my documents on the way
>> out of Italy. Maybe my memory is faulty, but the people working the
>> security lines didn't seem to me to be police, but private security
>> personnel.
>>>Usually they are in a booth with a computer and wear a darkish uniform
>>>with a label "polizia di stato" somewhere. Not to be confused with
>>>Guardia di Finanza (lighter colour uniform and "yellow flames"
>>>emblem), which essentially cares about custom checks, nor with airport
>>>security which might be using private staff.
>> On the way into Italy, I certainly remember passing through these
>> booths, but not on the way out.
>I flew from Venice to London Gatwick a few weeks back and there was
>certainly a Passport check just before the Gate area. For everyone.
It's been like that for years. Even within Schengen I can't remember
a time when passports weren't checked on departure from Italy by air,
although often they aren't checked on arrival from a Schengen country.
--
Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:52:53 +0200, Giovanni Drogo
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Well, there is no branch of civil service called "immigration" in Italy
>>>outside of the police. These sort of things are dealt by a branch of the
>>>police (polizia di frontiera, border police) ... and such branch has
>>>booths in airports. You will not be checked on exit if you are taking a
>>>flight to Schengen area, but if you go outside of it one of such
>>>policemen will surely ask for your documents.
>> I don't remember ever having a policeman check my documents on the way
>> out of Italy. Maybe my memory is faulty, but the people working the
>> security lines didn't seem to me to be police, but private security
>> personnel.
>>>Usually they are in a booth with a computer and wear a darkish uniform
>>>with a label "polizia di stato" somewhere. Not to be confused with
>>>Guardia di Finanza (lighter colour uniform and "yellow flames"
>>>emblem), which essentially cares about custom checks, nor with airport
>>>security which might be using private staff.
>> On the way into Italy, I certainly remember passing through these
>> booths, but not on the way out.
>I flew from Venice to London Gatwick a few weeks back and there was
>certainly a Passport check just before the Gate area. For everyone.
It's been like that for years. Even within Schengen I can't remember
a time when passports weren't checked on departure from Italy by air,
although often they aren't checked on arrival from a Schengen country.
--
Martin
Oct 24th 2006, 4:37 am
#96
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:04:52 +0200, Giovanni Drogo
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I recently saw a thread on it.cultura.linguistica.italiano in which a
>foreigner (probaly of english mother tongue) was confused by pronominal
>forms in italian like "glielo do" (I give it to him) and alike ... the
>fact you consider it an object, though indirect, may explain his
>difficulties ... pronouns are one of the cases where italian (which has
>lost declinations) is preserving three of the latin cases (nominative,
>accusative and dative), where english has merged accusative and dative
>(which e.g. in German remain separate).
English still has the dative, although its forms are identical to the
accusative. When you say, "I gave him the ball", "him" is dative.
English has also preserved the genitive to a certain extent. However,
I find that most Italians who study English don't realize that the
so-called "Saxon genitive" isn't used universally. I hear things like
"the automobile's hood", which no native speaker would say.
>> A complement in English usually means something which is not an object,
>Our "analisi logica" has plenty of complements e.g. "complemento di
>stato in luogo" (lit. of state in place, e.g. "at home"), "complemento
>di moto a luogo" (lit. of motion to place, e.g. "to Rome"), "complemento
>d'agente" (in passive sentences, "this has been done by me", "by me" is
>a complemento d'agente) etc. etc. Latin dative and accusative are
>complemento di termine and (complemento) oggetto.
This is a perfect example of a categorization that has no utility that
I can see.
>> This usually apples to verbs such as "be", "become", and so on.
>> "Elizabeth II is the present Queen" - "the present Queen" is the
>> complement; "Benedict XVI became Pope in 2005" - "Pope" is the
>> complement.
>Ah no, not at all. I believe that is an "apposizione".
This is a "complement" in English. All of the others you mention above
would be called "objects", mostly objects of prepositions.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I recently saw a thread on it.cultura.linguistica.italiano in which a
>foreigner (probaly of english mother tongue) was confused by pronominal
>forms in italian like "glielo do" (I give it to him) and alike ... the
>fact you consider it an object, though indirect, may explain his
>difficulties ... pronouns are one of the cases where italian (which has
>lost declinations) is preserving three of the latin cases (nominative,
>accusative and dative), where english has merged accusative and dative
>(which e.g. in German remain separate).
English still has the dative, although its forms are identical to the
accusative. When you say, "I gave him the ball", "him" is dative.
English has also preserved the genitive to a certain extent. However,
I find that most Italians who study English don't realize that the
so-called "Saxon genitive" isn't used universally. I hear things like
"the automobile's hood", which no native speaker would say.
>> A complement in English usually means something which is not an object,
>Our "analisi logica" has plenty of complements e.g. "complemento di
>stato in luogo" (lit. of state in place, e.g. "at home"), "complemento
>di moto a luogo" (lit. of motion to place, e.g. "to Rome"), "complemento
>d'agente" (in passive sentences, "this has been done by me", "by me" is
>a complemento d'agente) etc. etc. Latin dative and accusative are
>complemento di termine and (complemento) oggetto.
This is a perfect example of a categorization that has no utility that
I can see.
>> This usually apples to verbs such as "be", "become", and so on.
>> "Elizabeth II is the present Queen" - "the present Queen" is the
>> complement; "Benedict XVI became Pope in 2005" - "Pope" is the
>> complement.
>Ah no, not at all. I believe that is an "apposizione".
This is a "complement" in English. All of the others you mention above
would be called "objects", mostly objects of prepositions.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Oct 24th 2006, 4:37 am
#97
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:45:49 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>The application of the concepts of accusative/dative to English is, I think,
>another of those cases where old-fashioned English grammarians have tried to
>apply Latin grammar to a language which it really doesn't fit.
However, old English had distinct forms for accusative and dative, at
least in some persons.
> Maybe this
>came about because in many English school forty years ago, the teaching of
>"English" grammar was a prelude to learning foreign languages. Another
>example is "gender". In the late sixties, as an undergrad at Birmingham, I
>remember the distinguished professor of linguistics, John Sinclair, say, "In
>English, we don't have gender, but only sex, which is much more
>interesting."
If English doesn't have gender, how do you explain "him" and "her"?
Old English also had grammatical gender for nouns.
Old English also had three numbers: singular, dual, and plural.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
<[email protected]> wrote:
>The application of the concepts of accusative/dative to English is, I think,
>another of those cases where old-fashioned English grammarians have tried to
>apply Latin grammar to a language which it really doesn't fit.
However, old English had distinct forms for accusative and dative, at
least in some persons.
> Maybe this
>came about because in many English school forty years ago, the teaching of
>"English" grammar was a prelude to learning foreign languages. Another
>example is "gender". In the late sixties, as an undergrad at Birmingham, I
>remember the distinguished professor of linguistics, John Sinclair, say, "In
>English, we don't have gender, but only sex, which is much more
>interesting."
If English doesn't have gender, how do you explain "him" and "her"?
Old English also had grammatical gender for nouns.
Old English also had three numbers: singular, dual, and plural.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Oct 24th 2006, 4:40 am
#98
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:37:02 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:45:49 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>The application of the concepts of accusative/dative to English is, I think,
>>another of those cases where old-fashioned English grammarians have tried to
>>apply Latin grammar to a language which it really doesn't fit.
>However, old English had distinct forms for accusative and dative, at
>least in some persons.
>> Maybe this
>>came about because in many English school forty years ago, the teaching of
>>"English" grammar was a prelude to learning foreign languages. Another
>>example is "gender". In the late sixties, as an undergrad at Birmingham, I
>>remember the distinguished professor of linguistics, John Sinclair, say, "In
>>English, we don't have gender, but only sex, which is much more
>>interesting."
>If English doesn't have gender, how do you explain "him" and "her"?
"... but only sex"
--
Martin
>On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:45:49 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>The application of the concepts of accusative/dative to English is, I think,
>>another of those cases where old-fashioned English grammarians have tried to
>>apply Latin grammar to a language which it really doesn't fit.
>However, old English had distinct forms for accusative and dative, at
>least in some persons.
>> Maybe this
>>came about because in many English school forty years ago, the teaching of
>>"English" grammar was a prelude to learning foreign languages. Another
>>example is "gender". In the late sixties, as an undergrad at Birmingham, I
>>remember the distinguished professor of linguistics, John Sinclair, say, "In
>>English, we don't have gender, but only sex, which is much more
>>interesting."
>If English doesn't have gender, how do you explain "him" and "her"?
"... but only sex"
--
Martin
Oct 24th 2006, 6:16 am
#99
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:22:58 +0200, Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
>even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
>They checked my passport every time I left Italy via Turin Airport,
>even though the destination was within the Schengen area.
Yes, but was it the police or airport security personnel?
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Oct 24th 2006, 6:20 am
#100
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:40:30 +0200, Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>>If English doesn't have gender, how do you explain "him" and "her"?
>"... but only sex"
Sorry, pronouns are gender, not sex.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
>>If English doesn't have gender, how do you explain "him" and "her"?
>"... but only sex"
Sorry, pronouns are gender, not sex.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
Oct 24th 2006, 8:14 am
#101
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
"Giovanni Drogo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oengr.vans.vg...
Citing me:
>> example is "gender". In the late sixties, as an undergrad at Birmingham,
>> I
>> remember the distinguished professor of linguistics, John Sinclair, say,
>> "In
>> English, we don't have gender, but only sex, which is much more
Giovanni:
> We had a similar discussion on i.c.l or i.c.l.it. recently. Again I do
> not agree, or consider the thing irrelevant. You do not have gender for
> nouns in terms of endings and concordances with adjectives (like italian
> or russian), or in terms of articles and concordances (like german), but
> for me the 3rd person singular pronouns (he she it) are vestigial
> genders (and their german equivalent er sie es are used to agree with
> nouns of a given grammatical gender).
No, the point Sinclair was making is precisely that the English pronouns
he/she/it refer basically to sex (or in the case of "it" asexuality), not to
"gender" as a grammatical concept. Languages which have retained gender have
"masculine" words referring to female persons ("il soprano Cecilia
Bartoli"), neuter words referrring to female persons ("ein Deutsches
Maedchen"), and masculine/feminine words referring to asexual objects ("la
tavola", "el sol", "la plume", "die See/der See" - with different meanings),
with consequent effects on pronouns and adjectival forms.
One peculiarity of English is a modern use of "gender" as a sociological
term, referring to those aspects of behaviour, etc. that are defined as
"male" or "female" by society - e.g. secretary = woman's work, fireman =
man's work. Hence the plethora of words applicable to persons of both sexes
as women are admitted to formerly "male" jobs - firefighter rather than
fireman, police officer rather than policeman/policewoman, head teacher
rather than headmaster/mistress, and the preference of female thespians to
be called actors rather than actresses. This struck me when I saw a
reference to "the actor Daniela Nardini" in the Guardian. If Ms Nardini's
grandad had stayed in Italy, and she had pursued the same career there, she
would be "l'attrice Daniela Nardini".
I would suggest that this sensitivity to _sociological_ gender is largely a
peculiarity of English precisely because it doesn't have _grammatical_
gender.
Alan Harrison
news:[email protected] oengr.vans.vg...
Citing me:
>> example is "gender". In the late sixties, as an undergrad at Birmingham,
>> I
>> remember the distinguished professor of linguistics, John Sinclair, say,
>> "In
>> English, we don't have gender, but only sex, which is much more
Giovanni:
> We had a similar discussion on i.c.l or i.c.l.it. recently. Again I do
> not agree, or consider the thing irrelevant. You do not have gender for
> nouns in terms of endings and concordances with adjectives (like italian
> or russian), or in terms of articles and concordances (like german), but
> for me the 3rd person singular pronouns (he she it) are vestigial
> genders (and their german equivalent er sie es are used to agree with
> nouns of a given grammatical gender).
No, the point Sinclair was making is precisely that the English pronouns
he/she/it refer basically to sex (or in the case of "it" asexuality), not to
"gender" as a grammatical concept. Languages which have retained gender have
"masculine" words referring to female persons ("il soprano Cecilia
Bartoli"), neuter words referrring to female persons ("ein Deutsches
Maedchen"), and masculine/feminine words referring to asexual objects ("la
tavola", "el sol", "la plume", "die See/der See" - with different meanings),
with consequent effects on pronouns and adjectival forms.
One peculiarity of English is a modern use of "gender" as a sociological
term, referring to those aspects of behaviour, etc. that are defined as
"male" or "female" by society - e.g. secretary = woman's work, fireman =
man's work. Hence the plethora of words applicable to persons of both sexes
as women are admitted to formerly "male" jobs - firefighter rather than
fireman, police officer rather than policeman/policewoman, head teacher
rather than headmaster/mistress, and the preference of female thespians to
be called actors rather than actresses. This struck me when I saw a
reference to "the actor Daniela Nardini" in the Guardian. If Ms Nardini's
grandad had stayed in Italy, and she had pursued the same career there, she
would be "l'attrice Daniela Nardini".
I would suggest that this sensitivity to _sociological_ gender is largely a
peculiarity of English precisely because it doesn't have _grammatical_
gender.
Alan Harrison
Oct 24th 2006, 8:27 am
#102
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:40:30 +0200, Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>If English doesn't have gender, how do you explain "him" and "her"?
>>"... but only sex"
> Sorry, pronouns are gender, not sex.
No, Barbara, I agree with Sinclair that they are sex. See my longer response
to Giovanni elsewhere in the thread. We apply he/him/his to male persons,
and to male animals where we perceive sex to "matter", as in the case of a
pet, and similarly she/her to female persons and animals. The few apparent
exceptions are personification (as in "she" for a ship). It/its are used for
asexual objects, and animals where sex doesn't "matter".
This is very different from the following hypothetical conversation in which
you might be engaged:
Person: Dottoressa Vaughan, lei vede la macchina all'incrocio?
You: Si, la vedo.
Person: E vede anche l'autobus alla fermata?
You; Si, si, lo vedo.
This is gender - the car's feminine and the bus masculine.
While the English pronominal forms certainly derive from what were once
gendered forms in Old and Middle English, gender no longer exists in
English. In my longer response to Giovanni, I've waffled a bit about
"gender" as a sociological term
Alan Harrison
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:40:30 +0200, Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>If English doesn't have gender, how do you explain "him" and "her"?
>>"... but only sex"
> Sorry, pronouns are gender, not sex.
No, Barbara, I agree with Sinclair that they are sex. See my longer response
to Giovanni elsewhere in the thread. We apply he/him/his to male persons,
and to male animals where we perceive sex to "matter", as in the case of a
pet, and similarly she/her to female persons and animals. The few apparent
exceptions are personification (as in "she" for a ship). It/its are used for
asexual objects, and animals where sex doesn't "matter".
This is very different from the following hypothetical conversation in which
you might be engaged:
Person: Dottoressa Vaughan, lei vede la macchina all'incrocio?
You: Si, la vedo.
Person: E vede anche l'autobus alla fermata?
You; Si, si, lo vedo.
This is gender - the car's feminine and the bus masculine.
While the English pronominal forms certainly derive from what were once
gendered forms in Old and Middle English, gender no longer exists in
English. In my longer response to Giovanni, I've waffled a bit about
"gender" as a sociological term
Alan Harrison
Oct 24th 2006, 8:34 am
#103
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
Ken Blake wrote:
> Ian Burton wrote:
>
>
>>The official name of the school is and was The Bronx High School of
>>Science. Despite the name, it did not and does not specialize in
>>science any more than other schools of its kind, say, Music and Art,
>>Stuyvesant High, Hunter College High School, and Brooklyn Tech. To
>>enter these public schools, one has to and had to pass an entrance
>>exam. All of them were and are really college preparatory schools. In
>>Science, as all its alumni call it, French was the most popular
>>foreign language of my time. No student whom I knew spent his (or
>>her) time studying the works of Antoine Lavoisier or Louis Pasteur.
>>Alphonse Daudet was more our speed. Today at Science the most
>>popular language might be Chinese or Japanese.
>
>
>
> See
> http://www.bxscience.edu/apps/depart...oupREC_ID=3722
> or http://tinyurl.com/yedroh
>
> which states "In the Foreign Language Department at Science we are currently
> offering NINE languages - Chinese, French, Modern Greek, Italian, Japanese,
> Korean (Advanced Level only), Latin, Russian and Spanish."
>
> In my days at Science (like yours, in the 1950s) the only languages that I
> remember being offered were Latin, French, German, Italian, and Spanish.
>
As I remember my high school from the same period the languages
available were Latin, French, & Greek.
> Ian Burton wrote:
>
>
>>The official name of the school is and was The Bronx High School of
>>Science. Despite the name, it did not and does not specialize in
>>science any more than other schools of its kind, say, Music and Art,
>>Stuyvesant High, Hunter College High School, and Brooklyn Tech. To
>>enter these public schools, one has to and had to pass an entrance
>>exam. All of them were and are really college preparatory schools. In
>>Science, as all its alumni call it, French was the most popular
>>foreign language of my time. No student whom I knew spent his (or
>>her) time studying the works of Antoine Lavoisier or Louis Pasteur.
>>Alphonse Daudet was more our speed. Today at Science the most
>>popular language might be Chinese or Japanese.
>
>
>
> See
> http://www.bxscience.edu/apps/depart...oupREC_ID=3722
> or http://tinyurl.com/yedroh
>
> which states "In the Foreign Language Department at Science we are currently
> offering NINE languages - Chinese, French, Modern Greek, Italian, Japanese,
> Korean (Advanced Level only), Latin, Russian and Spanish."
>
> In my days at Science (like yours, in the 1950s) the only languages that I
> remember being offered were Latin, French, German, Italian, and Spanish.
>
As I remember my high school from the same period the languages
available were Latin, French, & Greek.
Oct 24th 2006, 8:56 am
#104
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: police registration in italy?
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 22:14:46 +0100,
[email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>Dave Frightens Me <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:56:02 -0700, "Ken Blake"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Giovanni Drogo wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Ken Blake wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Just out of curiousity, what happens to you, in Italy or elsewhere,
>> >>> if you overstay the three-month period?
>> >>
>> >> To ME and in Italy nothing, I'm a native and resident citizen :-)
>> >>
>> >> I suspect also nothing will happen if you are a tourist from the EU or
>> >> other country not requiring a visa. No policeman checking your
>> >> document will have an immediate way to know when you entered the
>> >> country (or Schengen area). Different story if you are trying to get
>> >> a job, or if you are a "wanted" criminal.
>> >>
>> >> If you are "extracomunitarian"
>> >
>> >
>> >Is that a real word? I've never seen it before.
>>
>> Neither had I before coming here. It basically means anyone from
>> outside of western Europe.
>>
>> In English it does in fact mean nothing.
>I even double checked with the OED just to make sure. I mean, I really
>_want_ it to mean something! :)
Thus we see the problem with translations.
It was interesting touring Corsice with Lonely Planet (Italian
edition), as much of the stuff written was definitely not aimed at
Italians. It just raises the issue of how literal or creative you
should be.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
[email protected] (David Horne, _the_ chancellor of
the royal duchy of city south and deansgate) wrote:
>Dave Frightens Me <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:56:02 -0700, "Ken Blake"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Giovanni Drogo wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Ken Blake wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Just out of curiousity, what happens to you, in Italy or elsewhere,
>> >>> if you overstay the three-month period?
>> >>
>> >> To ME and in Italy nothing, I'm a native and resident citizen :-)
>> >>
>> >> I suspect also nothing will happen if you are a tourist from the EU or
>> >> other country not requiring a visa. No policeman checking your
>> >> document will have an immediate way to know when you entered the
>> >> country (or Schengen area). Different story if you are trying to get
>> >> a job, or if you are a "wanted" criminal.
>> >>
>> >> If you are "extracomunitarian"
>> >
>> >
>> >Is that a real word? I've never seen it before.
>>
>> Neither had I before coming here. It basically means anyone from
>> outside of western Europe.
>>
>> In English it does in fact mean nothing.
>I even double checked with the OED just to make sure. I mean, I really
>_want_ it to mean something! :)
Thus we see the problem with translations.
It was interesting touring Corsice with Lonely Planet (Italian
edition), as much of the stuff written was definitely not aimed at
Italians. It just raises the issue of how literal or creative you
should be.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
Oct 24th 2006, 7:11 pm
#105
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Linguistic matters - was Re: police registration in italy?
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:14:30 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Giovanni Drogo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected] zoengr.vans.vg...
>Citing me:
>>> example is "gender". In the late sixties, as an undergrad at Birmingham,
>>> I
>>> remember the distinguished professor of linguistics, John Sinclair, say,
>>> "In
>>> English, we don't have gender, but only sex, which is much more
>Giovanni:
>> We had a similar discussion on i.c.l or i.c.l.it. recently. Again I do
>> not agree, or consider the thing irrelevant. You do not have gender for
>> nouns in terms of endings and concordances with adjectives (like italian
>> or russian), or in terms of articles and concordances (like german), but
>> for me the 3rd person singular pronouns (he she it) are vestigial
>> genders (and their german equivalent er sie es are used to agree with
>> nouns of a given grammatical gender).
>No, the point Sinclair was making is precisely that the English pronouns
>he/she/it refer basically to sex (or in the case of "it" asexuality), not to
>"gender" as a grammatical concept. Languages which have retained gender have
>"masculine" words referring to female persons ("il soprano Cecilia
>Bartoli"), neuter words referrring to female persons ("ein Deutsches
>Maedchen"), and masculine/feminine words referring to asexual objects ("la
>tavola", "el sol", "la plume", "die See/der See" - with different meanings),
>with consequent effects on pronouns and adjectival forms.
I agree with Giovanni on this. Pronouns (he, she) are words, after
all. This is gender, not sex.
>One peculiarity of English is a modern use of "gender" as a sociological
>term, referring to those aspects of behaviour, etc. that are defined as
>"male" or "female" by society - e.g. secretary = woman's work, fireman =
>man's work. Hence the plethora of words applicable to persons of both sexes
>as women are admitted to formerly "male" jobs - firefighter rather than
>fireman, police officer rather than policeman/policewoman, head teacher
>rather than headmaster/mistress, and the preference of female thespians to
>be called actors rather than actresses. This struck me when I saw a
>reference to "the actor Daniela Nardini" in the Guardian. If Ms Nardini's
>grandad had stayed in Italy, and she had pursued the same career there, she
>would be "l'attrice Daniela Nardini".
There is a similar tendency in Italy. For instance, a woman lawyer
used to be called "avvocatessa" but now almost always is "avvocato".
Also, woman teachers are beginning to be called "professore". "Attore"
can't be far behind.
>I would suggest that this sensitivity to _sociological_ gender is largely a
>peculiarity of English precisely because it doesn't have _grammatical_
>gender.
>Alan Harrison
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Giovanni Drogo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected] zoengr.vans.vg...
>Citing me:
>>> example is "gender". In the late sixties, as an undergrad at Birmingham,
>>> I
>>> remember the distinguished professor of linguistics, John Sinclair, say,
>>> "In
>>> English, we don't have gender, but only sex, which is much more
>Giovanni:
>> We had a similar discussion on i.c.l or i.c.l.it. recently. Again I do
>> not agree, or consider the thing irrelevant. You do not have gender for
>> nouns in terms of endings and concordances with adjectives (like italian
>> or russian), or in terms of articles and concordances (like german), but
>> for me the 3rd person singular pronouns (he she it) are vestigial
>> genders (and their german equivalent er sie es are used to agree with
>> nouns of a given grammatical gender).
>No, the point Sinclair was making is precisely that the English pronouns
>he/she/it refer basically to sex (or in the case of "it" asexuality), not to
>"gender" as a grammatical concept. Languages which have retained gender have
>"masculine" words referring to female persons ("il soprano Cecilia
>Bartoli"), neuter words referrring to female persons ("ein Deutsches
>Maedchen"), and masculine/feminine words referring to asexual objects ("la
>tavola", "el sol", "la plume", "die See/der See" - with different meanings),
>with consequent effects on pronouns and adjectival forms.
I agree with Giovanni on this. Pronouns (he, she) are words, after
all. This is gender, not sex.
>One peculiarity of English is a modern use of "gender" as a sociological
>term, referring to those aspects of behaviour, etc. that are defined as
>"male" or "female" by society - e.g. secretary = woman's work, fireman =
>man's work. Hence the plethora of words applicable to persons of both sexes
>as women are admitted to formerly "male" jobs - firefighter rather than
>fireman, police officer rather than policeman/policewoman, head teacher
>rather than headmaster/mistress, and the preference of female thespians to
>be called actors rather than actresses. This struck me when I saw a
>reference to "the actor Daniela Nardini" in the Guardian. If Ms Nardini's
>grandad had stayed in Italy, and she had pursued the same career there, she
>would be "l'attrice Daniela Nardini".
There is a similar tendency in Italy. For instance, a woman lawyer
used to be called "avvocatessa" but now almost always is "avvocato".
Also, woman teachers are beginning to be called "professore". "Attore"
can't be far behind.
>I would suggest that this sensitivity to _sociological_ gender is largely a
>peculiarity of English precisely because it doesn't have _grammatical_
>gender.
>Alan Harrison
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup
