B Vaughan

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:02:57 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Padraig Breathnach" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected].. .
    >> We could argue for a long time about what constitutes incorrect usage.
    >> It depends greatly on cultural context. In my context, double
    >> negatives continue to be a no-no.
    >Well, yes, I avoid them, but it is a relatively recent (and pedantically
    >driven) development in English. Look at Chaucer, for instance, where "he nas
    >nat" is commonplace.

Unless one is trying to be facetiously emphatic, such as "We don't
want no damn grammar lessons.", the double negative doesn't aid
communication at all. I try to weigh grammatical considerations by
their clarity, their fluidity, and their utility. For that reason I
accept "hopefully" in the sense of "it is to be hoped".
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

barney2

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (B
Vaughan) wrote:

    > *From:* B Vaughan<[email protected]>
    > *Date:* Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:40:31 +0200
    >
    > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:02:57 +0100, "ALAN HARRISON"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >"Padraig Breathnach" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected].. .
    > >
    > >> We could argue for a long time about what constitutes incorrect
    > > usage.
    > >> It depends greatly on cultural context. In my context, double
    > >> negatives continue to be a no-no.
    > >
    > >Well, yes, I avoid them, but it is a relatively recent (and
    > pedantically >driven) development in English. Look at Chaucer, for
    > instance, where "he nas >nat" is commonplace.
    >
    > Unless one is trying to be facetiously emphatic, such as "We don't
    > want no damn grammar lessons.", the double negative doesn't aid
    > communication at all.

There is one other, limited circumstance where it can be usefully
employed:

"You sat back and did nothing!" he said accusingly.

"I didn't do nothing!" she said defensively.

    > I try to weigh grammatical considerations by
    > their clarity, their fluidity, and their utility. For that reason I
    > accept "hopefully" in the sense of "it is to be hoped".

I've pretty much given up trying to maintain old-fashioned standards on
that one, too. ;)

David Horne

Dave Frightens Me <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

    > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:56:02 -0700, "Ken Blake"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >Giovanni Drogo wrote:
    > >
    > >> On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Ken Blake wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> Just out of curiousity, what happens to you, in Italy or elsewhere,
    > >>> if you overstay the three-month period?
    > >>
    > >> To ME and in Italy nothing, I'm a native and resident citizen :-)
    > >>
    > >> I suspect also nothing will happen if you are a tourist from the EU or
    > >> other country not requiring a visa. No policeman checking your
    > >> document will have an immediate way to know when you entered the
    > >> country (or Schengen area). Different story if you are trying to get
    > >> a job, or if you are a "wanted" criminal.
    > >>
    > >> If you are "extracomunitarian"
    > >
    > >
    > >Is that a real word? I've never seen it before.
    >
    > Neither had I before coming here. It basically means anyone from
    > outside of western Europe.
    >
    > In English it does in fact mean nothing.

I even double checked with the OED just to make sure. I mean, I really
_want_ it to mean something! :)

--
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usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
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Dave Frightens Me

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:56:02 -0700, "Ken Blake"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Giovanni Drogo wrote:
    >> On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Ken Blake wrote:
    >>> Just out of curiousity, what happens to you, in Italy or elsewhere,
    >>> if you overstay the three-month period?
    >> To ME and in Italy nothing, I'm a native and resident citizen :-)
    >> I suspect also nothing will happen if you are a tourist from the EU or
    >> other country not requiring a visa. No policeman checking your
    >> document will have an immediate way to know when you entered the
    >> country (or Schengen area). Different story if you are trying to get
    >> a job, or if you are a "wanted" criminal.
    >> If you are "extracomunitarian"
    >Is that a real word? I've never seen it before.

Neither had I before coming here. It basically means anyone from
outside of western Europe.

In English it does in fact mean nothing.
--
---
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---
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Ian Burton

"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 06:56:09 -0700, "Ian Burton"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>Difficult to believe or not, in the mid- to late-1950s the Bronx Science
    >>High School had several language teachers teaching several languages each.
    >>Clearly these teachers were not native speakers of all of them.

    > Well, that makes more sense, as it was a science high school. In those
    > days, kids who wanted to be scientists used to study German so they
    > could read scientific articles in that language. (Later Russian was
    > added.) Speaking the language was probably considered unnecessary.

The official name of the school is and was The Bronx High School of Science.
Despite the name, it did not and does not specialize in science any more
than other schools of its kind, say, Music and Art, Stuyvesant High, Hunter
College High School, and Brooklyn Tech. To enter these public schools, one
has to and had to pass an entrance exam. All of them were and are really
college preparatory schools. In Science, as all its alumni call it, French
was the most popular foreign language of my time. No student whom I knew
spent his (or her) time studying the works of Antoine Lavoisier or Louis
Pasteur. Alphonse Daudet was more our speed. Today at Science the most
popular language might be Chinese or Japanese.
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)

    >>In college I studied German and Russian and had native speakers for both.
    >>My professor of Old English, however, was an Old American.
    > Obviously not a native speaker.
    > --
    > Barbara Vaughan
    > My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot
    > it
    > I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Ken Blake

Giovanni Drogo wrote:

    > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006, Ken Blake wrote:
    >>> If you are "extracomunitarian"
    >> Is that a real word? I've never seen it before.
    > I do not know if it is a real word in English, but you seem to have
    > understood what it means.


Yes, and thanks for the extra information.

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    > It is a real word in italian

Ken Blake

Ian Burton wrote:

    > The official name of the school is and was The Bronx High School of
    > Science. Despite the name, it did not and does not specialize in
    > science any more than other schools of its kind, say, Music and Art,
    > Stuyvesant High, Hunter College High School, and Brooklyn Tech. To
    > enter these public schools, one has to and had to pass an entrance
    > exam. All of them were and are really college preparatory schools. In
    > Science, as all its alumni call it, French was the most popular
    > foreign language of my time. No student whom I knew spent his (or
    > her) time studying the works of Antoine Lavoisier or Louis Pasteur.
    > Alphonse Daudet was more our speed. Today at Science the most
    > popular language might be Chinese or Japanese.


See
http://www.bxscience.edu/apps/depart...oupREC_ID=3722
or http://tinyurl.com/yedroh

which states "In the Foreign Language Department at Science we are currently
offering NINE languages - Chinese, French, Modern Greek, Italian, Japanese,
Korean (Advanced Level only), Latin, Russian and Spanish."

In my days at Science (like yours, in the 1950s) the only languages that I
remember being offered were Latin, French, German, Italian, and Spanish.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

Ken Blake

B Vaughan wrote:

    > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:56:02 -0700, "Ken Blake"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> I guess what my real question was is that supposing I stay in Italy
    >> for four months, and never speak to a policeman. Then when I leave,
    >> I show my passport at the airport, and it's apparent that I've
    >> overstayed my visa. Are there any consequences, like being denied
    >> admission next year?
    > The only people who examine your passport at the airport are the
    > airline personnel and the security people. These have nothing to do
    > with immigration, so I'm sure the information doesn't get passed
    > along.


Thanks. This is all hypothetical anyway, since I've never stayed for longer
than a month. My budget doesn't permit longer vacations.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

Ian Burton

"Ken Blake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Ian Burton wrote:
    >> The official name of the school is and was The Bronx High School of
    >> Science. Despite the name, it did not and does not specialize in
    >> science any more than other schools of its kind, say, Music and Art,
    >> Stuyvesant High, Hunter College High School, and Brooklyn Tech. To
    >> enter these public schools, one has to and had to pass an entrance
    >> exam. All of them were and are really college preparatory schools. In
    >> Science, as all its alumni call it, French was the most popular
    >> foreign language of my time. No student whom I knew spent his (or
    >> her) time studying the works of Antoine Lavoisier or Louis Pasteur.
    >> Alphonse Daudet was more our speed. Today at Science the most
    >> popular language might be Chinese or Japanese.
    > See
    > http://www.bxscience.edu/apps/depart...oupREC_ID=3722
    > or http://tinyurl.com/yedroh
    > which states "In the Foreign Language Department at Science we are
    > currently offering NINE languages - Chinese, French, Modern Greek,
    > Italian, Japanese, Korean (Advanced Level only), Latin, Russian and
    > Spanish."
    > In my days at Science (like yours, in the 1950s) the only languages that
    > I remember being offered were Latin, French, German, Italian, and Spanish.

Hebrew was also taught, but I had no idea Italian was offered.
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)

Giovanni Drogo

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006, B Vaughan wrote:

    > >I guess what my real question was is that supposing I stay in Italy for four
    > >months, and never speak to a policeman. Then when I leave, I show my
    >
    > The only people who examine your passport at the airport are the
    > airline personnel and the security people. These have nothing to do
    > with immigration,

Well, there is no branch of civil service called "immigration" in Italy
outside of the police. These sort of things are dealt by a branch of the
police (polizia di frontiera, border police) ... and such branch has
booths in airports. You will not be checked on exit if you are taking a
flight to Schengen area, but if you go outside of it one of such
policemen will surely ask for your documents.

Usually they are in a booth with a computer and wear a darkish uniform
with a label "polizia di stato" somewhere. Not to be confused with
Guardia di Finanza (lighter colour uniform and "yellow flames"
emblem), which essentially cares about custom checks, nor with airport
security which might be using private staff.

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Giovanni Drogo

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006, ALAN HARRISON wrote:

    > > "analisi logica" is instead *internal* to a "proposizione".
    >
    > OK, it's syntactic analysis or "parsing" (the latter very much a word
    > associated with the analysis of the syntax of Latin or classical Greek).

Interesting. I've always used "parsing" exclusively (and extensive) as a
term in programming and computer science at large.

    > > taking a sentence like "John gives a blue book to Mary" and saying John
    > > is the subject, gives is the verbal predicate, a book is the object
    > > ("oggetto" or "complemento oggetto"),
    >
    > "Direct object" in English

Well, yes, accusative is considered a "direct case" in latin.
All other cases are "oblique". I am casting italian words into the
closest english word.

    > "to Mary" is a "complemento di termine" (and here I willingly do
    > > not translate, as I do not know whether the plethora of, sometimes oddly
    > > defined, "complements" are familiar to you).
    >
    > In English, Mary is the "indirect object" (where "to" is said or implied as
    > in "I gave him the book").

I recently saw a thread on it.cultura.linguistica.italiano in which a
foreigner (probaly of english mother tongue) was confused by pronominal
forms in italian like "glielo do" (I give it to him) and alike ... the
fact you consider it an object, though indirect, may explain his
difficulties ... pronouns are one of the cases where italian (which has
lost declinations) is preserving three of the latin cases (nominative,
accusative and dative), where english has merged accusative and dative
(which e.g. in German remain separate).

    > A complement in English usually means something which is not an object,

Our "analisi logica" has plenty of complements e.g. "complemento di
stato in luogo" (lit. of state in place, e.g. "at home"), "complemento
di moto a luogo" (lit. of motion to place, e.g. "to Rome"), "complemento
d'agente" (in passive sentences, "this has been done by me", "by me" is
a complemento d'agente) etc. etc. Latin dative and accusative are
complemento di termine and (complemento) oggetto.


    > This usually apples to verbs such as "be", "become", and so on.
    > "Elizabeth II is the present Queen" - "the present Queen" is the
    > complement; "Benedict XVI became Pope in 2005" - "Pope" is the
    > complement.

Ah no, not at all. I believe that is an "apposizione".

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Alan Harrison

"Giovanni Drogo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oengr.vans.vg...
    > On Mon, 23 Oct 2006, ALAN HARRISON wrote:
    >> > "analisi logica" is instead *internal* to a "proposizione".
    >> OK, it's syntactic analysis or "parsing" (the latter very much a word
    >> associated with the analysis of the syntax of Latin or classical Greek).
    > Interesting. I've always used "parsing" exclusively (and extensive) as a
    > term in programming and computer science at large.

Do you mean the English word "parsing" is used in Italian in that context,
Giovanni? The use of parse/parsing in the field of computing seems like
another case of a linguistic term being applied to computing, like "computer
language" itself.

    > pronouns are one of the cases where italian (which has
    > lost declinations) is preserving three of the latin cases (nominative,
    > accusative and dative), where english has merged accusative and dative
    > (which e.g. in German remain separate).

The application of the concepts of accusative/dative to English is, I think,
another of those cases where old-fashioned English grammarians have tried to
apply Latin grammar to a language which it really doesn't fit. Maybe this
came about because in many English school forty years ago, the teaching of
"English" grammar was a prelude to learning foreign languages. Another
example is "gender". In the late sixties, as an undergrad at Birmingham, I
remember the distinguished professor of linguistics, John Sinclair, say, "In
English, we don't have gender, but only sex, which is much more
interesting." (For the non-relationship of sex and grammatical gender,
consider "Il soprano tedesco, che indossava soltanto delle mutandine rosse,
stava mangiando un wurstel con crauti e patate fritte.") Incidenatlly, Prof
Sinclair played a major part in introducing me, as a callow youth, to the
delights of the demon drink, but that's another story.

Alan Harrison

Giovanni Drogo

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006, ALAN HARRISON wrote:

    > > Interesting. I've always used "parsing" exclusively (and extensive) as a
    > > term in programming and computer science at large.
    >
    > Do you mean the English word "parsing" is used in Italian in that context,
    > Giovanni? The use of parse/parsing in the field of computing seems like
    > another case of a linguistic term being applied to computing, like "computer

On one hand I'm meaning I encountered the English word "parsing" (or the
verb "to parse" or the substantive "parser") for the first time in the
context of programming (or if you want abstract list processing) and I
did not realize it had another "everyday" meaning in English (while for
instance I appreciate that the similar "tokenizing" derives from
"token"). Actually I did not realize it until you mentioned it.

Compare this for instance with the word "file" which I also first
encountered in a computer-related context before realizing it was at
least one common word in pre-computer English (let's say I knew about a
computer file as soon as I met a computer, and I realized about things
like a "filing cabinet" as soon as I moved to the UK. I realized about
the other meaning of "file" as a tool only when I encountered Babelfish
    :-) ... originally it translated "a log file" into "una lima di ceppo"
    :-)).

On another hand, it is quite common for Italian, at least in computer
jargon, to assume an English word almost unchanged. A word like "file"
or "parser" will be taken unchanged. For verbs the story is different,
we cast them into italian lookalikes, so "to parse" may become
"parsare", "to sort" may become "sortare" or "sortire". It's jargon and
you are not likely to find such verbs on a dictionary (parsare,
sortare), or you will find a pre-existing word with an altogether
different meaning (sortire).


    > The application of the concepts of accusative/dative to English is, I think,
    > another of those cases where old-fashioned English grammarians have tried to
    > apply Latin grammar to a language which it really doesn't fit. Maybe this

I do not agree. We do not have declinations and cases in Italian, so we
should not use the concepts of accusative/dative as well ... but they
are etimologically and historically the correct way to explain the
Italian pronominal forms as vestigial from Latin (compare "io mi me"
with Latin "ego mihi me"). I'm pretty sure a similar historical
relations holds between English and some germanic ancestor language.

    > example is "gender". In the late sixties, as an undergrad at Birmingham, I
    > remember the distinguished professor of linguistics, John Sinclair, say, "In
    > English, we don't have gender, but only sex, which is much more

We had a similar discussion on i.c.l or i.c.l.it. recently. Again I do
not agree, or consider the thing irrelevant. You do not have gender for
nouns in terms of endings and concordances with adjectives (like italian
or russian), or in terms of articles and concordances (like german), but
for me the 3rd person singular pronouns (he she it) are vestigial
genders (and their german equivalent er sie es are used to agree with
nouns of a given grammatical gender).

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Ken Blake

Ian Burton wrote:

    > "Ken Blake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...

    >> In my days at Science (like yours, in the 1950s) the only languages
    >> that I remember being offered were Latin, French, German, Italian,
    >> and Spanish.
    > Hebrew was also taught,


Now that you mention it, that sounds fanmiliar.


    > but I had no idea Italian was offered.


It wasn't particularly popular, but I had a friend who was studying it, so
I remember it.


--
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B Vaughan

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:57:50 -0700, "Ian Burton"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Ken Blake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> Ian Burton wrote:
    >>> The official name of the school is and was The Bronx High School of
    >>> Science. Despite the name, it did not and does not specialize in
    >>> science any more than other schools of its kind, say, Music and Art,
    >>> Stuyvesant High, Hunter College High School, and Brooklyn Tech. To
    >>> enter these public schools, one has to and had to pass an entrance
    >>> exam. All of them were and are really college preparatory schools. In
    >>> Science, as all its alumni call it, French was the most popular
    >>> foreign language of my time. No student whom I knew spent his (or
    >>> her) time studying the works of Antoine Lavoisier or Louis Pasteur.
    >>> Alphonse Daudet was more our speed. Today at Science the most
    >>> popular language might be Chinese or Japanese.
    >> See
    >> http://www.bxscience.edu/apps/depart...oupREC_ID=3722
    >> or http://tinyurl.com/yedroh
    >> which states "In the Foreign Language Department at Science we are
    >> currently offering NINE languages - Chinese, French, Modern Greek,
    >> Italian, Japanese, Korean (Advanced Level only), Latin, Russian and
    >> Spanish."
    >> In my days at Science (like yours, in the 1950s) the only languages that
    >> I remember being offered were Latin, French, German, Italian, and Spanish.
    >Hebrew was also taught, but I had no idea Italian was offered.

No ancient Greek?

The Philadelphia equivalent of these elite New York High Schools were
Girls' High and Boys' High. (I don't know if those were the official
names.) However, I lived in Upper Darby, and we had no equivalent out
there in the suburbs. Upper Darby High School had a good reputation,
though. In my class of about 500, there were 10 or 12 (can't remember
exactly) National Merit Finalists. We got our picture in the school
paper, but no big fuss was made about it. Actually, my high school
principal, who was always looking for statistics that made our school
look good, chewed us out as a group because so few had chosen to
attend elite universities. However, most of us were from working class
families and would have felt out of place at those schools.

When I got to Douglass College (the female branch of Rutgers), my name
(along with one or two other finalists in the freshman class) was
announced and applauded at the opening assembly, which astonished me.
In fact, in some ways the intellectual environment in my high school
was more stimulating.

--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup