On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:46:19 GMT, Rita <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:20:31 +0200, "Ingeborg Denner" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>"Rita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email protected]. ..
    >>> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:56:07 +0200, "Ingeborg Denner" <[email protected]>
    >>wrote:
    >>> >
    >>> >
    >>> This has been my pattern, not to book ahead, and I have been
    >>> remarkably lucky in finding low cost acceptable hotel rooms.
    >>Same here. I guess there generally *are* enough rooms, only it can
    >>happen that you do not find them :-/
    >>inge
    >These days I'm traveling some with a daughter. Her tolerance
    >for not having a room booked is zilch. And she isn't willing
    >to put up with some cheaper places. But she is willing to do
    >the work on the Internet finding hotel rooms that are not
    >very expensive and since I can share the cost with someone else
    >it works out about the same for me.

We several times booked a cheap flight on the same plane that package
tour operators used. When we arrived we worked our way through the
hotels that the package tours offered until we found a room. We never
paid more for a room for two adults and two children, than the package
tour company charged per person. In Turkey we did particularly well we
got a two bed roomed bungalow in a hotel bungalow complex for less
than the charge for one person in a room if booked as part of a
package.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...

    > I went to Iceland. I bought a trip from the travel agent and paid my
    > money.
    > They were just a conduit for the trip and this was before the internet.
    > Nowadays you could easily cut them out but could you do it more cheaply
    > ?
    > If you take the time and effort you could, just depends how busy you
    > are.

Yeah, I think I could. I've managed to do it in a number of international
destinations, so there's no reason to think I couldn't beat the price in
Iceland. As I mentioned in my original message, I've called a travel agent
a half-dozen times, gave him my itinerary, and they've always come back with
higher airfare (usually the lowest I've found plus their automatic $100, for
one particular agency), and higher per night for the same hotels. Sometimes
they throw in a free 2-day car rental, or some other token gift, but you are
always "paying" for these "free" things.

Try asking a travel agent if the hotel they are recommending has an in-room
safe or a has Internet access, and see if they "know" their product, and
many times its a "I'll get back to you." Because many of times they DON'T
know the product. They are probably going online and checking the website
out, just like you would do.

That's just it, if you ENJOY the details, doing it yourself is the only way.
If you want to plonk your money down, and walk away, then more power to you.

Keith

Following up to Padraig Breathnach

    >So I ask: what do other members of our group do? Do you take packages,
    >or put together your own programmes, or do some of each?

we gave up on packages not primarily because of price, as we
rarely do a careful comparison but because:-
(a) we found the intermediaries got in the way of choosing
exactly what room we wanted etc often they couldn't offer what we
knew we wanted.
(b) package deals often meant charter flights, which seem to get
delayed much more.

There was a time after we dropped full package when we used a
small tour company, as they could get a fly drive deal to fit
with our hotel booking at a sensible price. But then the cheap
airlines came on the scene and charters looked much less
attractive, especially as we sometimes found "semi-independent
travellers" joining a big company package flight were treated as
second class.

Downside must be if things go wrong, but touch wood they have
not, although airlines have adjusted the times of flights on
occasion, which could have caused a problem. I think if we were
going long haul somewhere very unknown I might go to a
specialist, but the high street holiday shops don't seem to have
as much knowledge as we do.
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Thames path-London-Photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Padraig Breathnach

    >The year
    >>before we went to Croatia island hopping. We never had any problem
    >>finding somewhere to stay, and we could pick and choose what we liked.
    >Island hopping? What sort of car do you drive?

I'm going island hopping in May, (northern isles). While my car
is superior to all other makes in the view of its owners, it has
no special sea going abilities.
--
Mike Reid
BMW driver
"Everybody hates us and we don't care"
"http://www.fellwalk.co.uk"

Following up to Padraig Breathnach

    >set dates, tour leader, programme of activities

these words cause an imaginary cold hand to grip at my stomach.
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Thames path-London-Photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Mimi

    >I tend to think of a package tour as including a group, a bus, and short
    >stops in many places.

I think most Euros will regard a package as flight/hotel/car or
transfer, nothing else. It could be single destination beach hols
or city hopping. There would be a company rep at the site who
tries to sell you coach trips and which you ignore beyond
acepting a welcome free drink.
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Thames path-London-Photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Deep Foiled Malls

    >A very good point to remember. Terrorism is one of the lower threats
    >to your life that there is anywhere on earth.
    >--
cushions are less. Never worry about cushions. If you must worry,
worry about car travel, food poisoning or bag snatchers, but the
worry doesn't always help much of course.
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Thames path-London-Photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

"george" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...
    > Deep Foiled Malls wrote:
    > can't imagine Egypt would be that dangerous. I know a couple of
    > girls that hitchhiked in parts of it even, although they did spend a
    > lot of time fending off the men. Probably one of the trickier places
    > for independent travel though.
    > There was a recent suicide bomber that killed a few people in Cairo a
    > few weeks ago, and then there were the attacks on tourists in the south
    > a few years ago, so tourists are deliberately being targeted. That
    > being said, you're probably more likely to be killed there in a traffic
    > accident.

Yep!
We went just a year or two after the Valley of Kings massacre.
In Karnak automatic gunfire sent us all on our faces - and it turned out to
be the new 'Tourist Safety Police' practicing next door!
In the same trip our boat's berthing place was rapidly changed when faced by
several thousand banner-waving and yelling Egyptians. Later we learned they
were there to celebrate the opening of a concrete factory!

Surreyman

I suspect that if you want to do just what the package provides it will
often cost less. However, I find that often I can find better things to
do with my time and do DIY. It might be more interesting to research
setting up a trip that you want and cost out a package that will provide it.

Padraig Breathnach wrote:

    > Regular participants in this group might be aware that Herself and I
    > take a number of short-break holidays each year.
    >
    > Sometimes we buy a package, and sometimes we put things together for
    > ourselves.
    >
    > When I am tempted by a package, I look at the deal and check how much
    > it would cost to book the components myself (usually just flight and
    > accommodation). In only one case that I checked out could I get a
    > better deal that way. I might do better by being flexible on
    > accommodation, but I find that the travel company I most often use is
    > good on hotels, and confidence that the accommodation will be good is
    > worth something. Other advantages of buying a package are convenience
    > (a minor point, to my mind) and the legal responsibility of the tour
    > operator if things go wrong (in the EU, consumer protection law on
    > package holidays is strong -- but I am not particularly litigious, so
    > it is a consideration to which I do not give a great deal of thought.
    >
    > Yesterday I read a piece in "Consumer Choice", a publication of the
    > Consumer Association of Ireland (something like "Which?" in the UK)
    > which concluded that it is almost always cheaper to go the DIY route,
    > and sometimes more than 30% cheaper. I am a little suspicious of the
    > piece because of the way in which some tour operators in Ireland
    > calculate their headline prices: oddly, you can buy some packages more
    > cheaply than the published price if you choose dates with good
    > availability of bargain flights.
    >
    > So I ask: what do other members of our group do? Do you take packages,
    > or put together your own programmes, or do some of each?
    >

Padraig Breathnach schrieb:

    > So I ask: what do other members of our group do? Do you take packages,
    > or put together your own programmes, or do some of each?

By the way: IFAIU, to get a German tourist visa, you have to prove
confirmed hotel/hostel accomodation for all nights. Might be specific to
ex-USSR (there might be exceptions if you show them $$$$$$$$$ not just
$$) and does not concern visas to see friends or relatives.

Regards, ULF

I wrote:ethe
    > I hope not. Good travel agents provide valuable services. I spent a
    > week going around Iceland in early June, 2000 arranged by an
Icelandic
    > travel agent (with them providing good detailed instructions). Even
    > he, being extremely knowlegable, had a hard time putting together an
    > interesting itinary to circle Iceland by bus. For me, and any other
    > person not from Iceland, it would have been impossible.
Keith replied:
    >>Impossible is a big word. There are thousands of people, including
those on
this newgroup, that have booked their own Iceland tours without problem
or
incident. I think you are underestimating yourself, and the power of
the
Internet. If you want to make an argument that you shouldn't HAVE to,
or
you don't WANT to make arrangements yourself, go ahead, but don't turn
this
into "it's impossible." I'll give you that circling Iceland by BUS
makes it
tougher, but not impossible. Iceland is on our "list", and we won't be
using any travel agents when that time comes.

Yes, it was impossible. Never having been to Iceland, you probably
don't know the problems. This was in early June, most tourist related
businesses weren't open. Sure, I could have gotten around Iceland OK
on the ring road by bus (one a day, each direction), but I would have
seen and did very little except sit on a bus. Begining a trip in
Seydisfjordur instead of Reykjavik greatly complicated things, as
having to be back there a week later. Taking the bus to Lake Myvatn
was easy where I spent the first night, but where to get off the bus
wouldn't have been. I would have never known about the superjeep trip
I took the next day if it hadn't been booked for me by the travel
agent, and basically I was the first client of the season, thanks to
the travel agent, otherwise he wasn't open for business. There were no
other tire tracks through the snow or mud on the way from the
geothermal power plant past the newest lava erupted to Dettifoss
waterfall (Iceland's and Europe's largest), and the path was washed and
blown away in several spots. I would never have been able to see it if
not for the travel agents arrangements for there is no public
transportation to it. The next day I continued on with a private coach
tour because the bus schedule wasn't possible. Have you ever tried to
insert yourself into the middle of a scheduled tour, it isn't possible
except for the travel agent's intervention. Then he arranged for the
flight during the cancelled bus service. I certainly could have
managed the activities associated with Reykjavik on my own (which is
probably what 99+% of Iceland tourists do). Then it was off to Hofn
along the south coast. It might have been possible to book the
accommodations there on my own, but it was nice having arrangements
made to pick me up from the bus station and take me the several miles
out of town. There I rode an Icelandic horse that evening, which I
never would have probably considered if it hadn't been for the travel
agent. Then on to Egilsstadir and a boat trip on the large lake. (If
it wasn't open yet, he could have made alternative plans.) This was
also one of the first trips of the year. Then the next day back to
Seydisfjordur and the ferry. It was only through his intimate
knowledge of Iceland and his personal contacts that I could make a
worthwhile trip. Sure, if I had 2-3 weeks and could rent a car, I
could manage quite well on my own. But with time constraints and the
excessive cost of renting a car for one person, the travel agent was
the only effective alternative. I could have wasted weeks of my time
planning, and have come up with something not nearly so good.

    >Bus schedules, train schedules(I'm guessing none in Iceland), plane
schedules, accomodation (including room availability), attractions, etc
are
all available online. Double check this information by
posting a few messages, making a few phone calls, checking other sites,
etc

Scheduled information may be on line, but probably not exactly when the
business may be open. Much of it is weather dependent. I doubt that
most accomodation information is online as much of this is of a
temporary nature. And I certainly wouldn't try to check by phoning,
they possibly wouldn't speak English, and the phone bill would be
astronomical.

    >In my travels of US, Canada, Caribbean, Africa, and Europe, I've
*never*
made a mistake in planning that wasn't recoverable.

Yes, that's your travels, not traveling in remote Greenland (what was
discussed) where a slight miscalculation could cost you your life.
What would you do to rent a helicopter in Greenland for skiing purposes
in a remote area? Are you competent enough to make all the correct
decisions so that you won't die? You use experts, in this case a
competent travel agent who in a few minutes could make all the complex
arrangements and give the client a price.

    >But Airline or hotel accomodations
or general travel arrangements, simply not necessary.

And how do you select a good tour guide and driver in SE Asia? Dealing
with a reputable travel agency insures this. What do you do? Select
someone at random off from the street?

>I visited three continents on one trip using 3 separate airlines, all
booked
by myself. Some one-way trips, some by boat, flying in one city, and
flying
out of another.

These were probably pretty simple arrangements. And how do you know
that you got the best price? It sounds like your travel agent is
incompetent. Are all your trips then on the same ticket? If not, you
are responsible for any interline travel problems, not the airline.

For what it's worth, I quite often make all or most of the travel
arrangements myself, and particularly hotels. For over 15 years we have
been making 2-4 international trips a year, and our children 4-5.
Competent professional travel agents have there place. They can often
save you money and certainly a lot of unnecessary wasted time. I would
rather plan details of what I want to see instead of trying to save a
few dollars on an airline ticket, probably taking many hours to do it.
And when a travel agent has an airfare-hotel deal less than the
cheapest airfare you can up with, why not use it.

Two further incidents in Laos where a travel agent greatly assisted.
He was able to get us on another four hour earlier flight when one of
our internal flights was delayed for five hours. There were many other
people there waiting, but our travel agent was able to do that for us.
No other people got to do this. It meant an extra half day in Luang
Prabang.
And when my wife got a severe tooth ache in Laos, he was able to get us
an appointment with an expat dentist in Hanoi (where we were traveling
to) immediately on arrival the same evening using their Hanoi office.
What would you have done? Let it ruin your whole trip? Visit an
incompetent dentist in Laos? Miss your flight and lose your Vietnam
visa? It's nice to have someone else look after your problems. I go
on a vacation to enjoy myself, not to deal with problems.

Have a pleasant trip to Iceland.

George

[email protected] wrote:
went to Iceland. I bought a trip from the travel agent and paid my
money.
They were just a conduit for the trip and this was before the internet.

Nowadays you could easily cut them out but could you do it more cheaply
?
If you take the time and effort you could, just depends how busy you
are.

Yes, you don't need a travel agent for what you did. You probably flew
in to Keflavik and therefore would have no problems. But what happens
when you enter by ferry on the other side of the island, and there is
only a weekly ferry service, and one public bus each way each day on
the ring around Iceland, and no other public transportation. Then you
badly need a travel agent. And I'm certain that you can use the
internet all you want and you won't be able to come up with a suitable
one week public bus trip around Iceland, where you actually get to see
very interesting sights. You will basically sit in the bus the whole
way except for the Reykjavik area. And I don't know really how easy it
is to contact temporary hotels that are open only during the tourist
season (late June-August).

George

George

"Frank F. Matthews" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I suspect that if you want to do just what the package provides it will
    >often cost less. However, I find that often I can find better things to
    >do with my time and do DIY. It might be more interesting to research
    >setting up a trip that you want and cost out a package that will provide it.
It might be, but the chances of finding that somebody has packaged the
same elements as you have selected are quite small. I often work the
other direction: see a package that is promising, and check if I can
assemble it for myself more cheaply. The answer is sometimes yes,
other times, no.

That's part of the reason why I sometimes take packages.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

Frank F. Matthews wrote:
It might be more interesting to research
setting up a trip that you want and cost out a package that will
provide it

That is basically what we've done on several of our SE Asia trips. WE
tell our SE Asian travel agency what we want to do, and then they
provide a list of hotels to select from and give us a price. They may
also make good suggestions on other places to see. This way my wife
and I have a competent private guide and driver and do only what we
want to do. I'm sure that we probably could do this at a cheaper price
ourselves, but we have always been happy with their personnel and trips
and they have done some really great things for us that we couldn't do
ourselves. I also really don't want to get bogged down in tedious
efforts to save a small amount of money. A vacation should be for
enjoyment.

George

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:13:25 +0100, The Reids
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Following up to Padraig Breathnach
    >>set dates, tour leader, programme of activities
    >these words cause an imaginary cold hand to grip at my stomach.

Often rightly so, but not always.

Some tour operators have decent excursions which one would be hard
pushed to do by public transport or even car, bearing in mind driving
(and parking) particularly in cities.

I've led some really good ones in the Black Forest where buses are few
and far between - others in the Netherlands over the Lelystad -
Enkhuizen dyke road where buses are also relatively infrequent.

But some excursions are crap and I certainly haven't bent over
backwards to try and sell them to clients.

If I think an excursion is interesting and worthwhile, I'll recommend
it. Otherwise, I think that my unenthusiastic, deadpan delivery does
the trick!

It all depends on the tour operator. Those whose Operations
Departments take the trouble to research an itinerary, work out
feasible timings, and make contact with local suppliers are a joy to
work for. There are, of course, others, whose so-called Product
Managers (using a Yorkshire expression) can't tell shit from puddin'.


Keith, Bristol, UK

DE-MUNG for email replies