Padraig Breathnach schrieb:

    > So I ask: what do other members of our group do? Do you take packages,
    > or put together your own programmes, or do some of each?

I put together my own programmes. Hard to find packages including
regular trains and countyside bed & breakfast next to a train station.

Regards, ULF

Wierd Travelers schrieb:
    >
    > I tend to make the decision based on the amount of travel. If I am
    > going to a single city or sites around a single city I will usally go
    > DIY. However if it is a multi-location trip with alot of travel
    > between locations then bundled is the way to go.
    >
    > The reason for that is that if I am going to alot of locations I am
    > going to be spending alot of time getting hotels, waiting for
    > transportation, find ways to store my stuff,etc. With a bundled trip
    > that is all worked out.

Sure but this applies only if you find a multi-location package that
fits your ideas about the locations to see (or if you don't mind).

Regards, ULF

Padraig Breathnach schrieb:

    > >We have to look at substantial air fare so a deal that
    > >lowers that and includes hotel can at times work well.
    > >
    > When airfares within Europe were high, it was often the case that a
    > travel and accommodation package cost no more, or very little more,
    > than a travel-only deal.

It was the case with travel from Germany to the SU/Russia about
1990/1992.

Regards, ULF

Rita schrieb:

    > I live in New York City so airfares to Europe for me are far better
    > than from many parts of the U.S. And there are many airlines to
    > choose from that serve New York area airports.
    >
    > What I dislike the most if having to specify a return date. Some
    > years ago one could fly standby from New York and I loved that.
    > When my money ran out, I came home.

DUS - JFK, in EUR, one way, taxes included:

LT 1551 So 08.05. 17:45 07:00 >9 199,-
LT 1551 Mo 09.05. 17:45 07:00 >9 199,-
LT 1551 Di 10.05. 17:45 07:00 >9 199,-
LT 1551 Do 12.05. 17:45 07:00 >9 199,-
LT 1551 Fr 13.05. 17:45 07:00 >9 199,-
LT 1551 Sa 14.05. 17:45 07:00 >9 199,-
LT 1551 So 15.05. 17:45 07:00 >9 199,-
LT 1551 Mo 16.05. 17:45 07:00 >9 199,-

Regards, ULF

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:31:21 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:49:34 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>That's a fairly common product in the Irish market, especially for
    >>short breaks. Accommodation normally includes breakfast and no other
    >>meals. I usually deal with one operator because they have never let me
    >>down. You get what they say you will get: if they say the hotel is
    >>okay, then the hotel is okay; if they say the hotel is good, then the
    >>hotel is good. No set dates, no tour leader, no programme of
    >>activities, nothing like that. They send you tickets, hotel voucher,
    >>and off you go.
    >It seems to me that in Italy, the totally organized package is most
    >common. There are lots of flight/hotel combinations for tropical
    >island destinations, but for other destinations in Europe (or Asia or
    >Africa), what I mostly see is packaged tours.
    >My husband would like to go to Egypt one of these days and I almost
    >had him convinced that we could DIO, but then some Italians who had
    >been there insisted that it would be very dangerous to wander around
    >Egypt without a babysitter. I'm hoping that a year or two from now, he
    >won't remember that advice.

I can't imagine Egypt would be that dangerous. I know a couple of
girls that hitchhiked in parts of it even, although they did spend a
lot of time fending off the men. Probably one of the trickier places
for independent travel though.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Deep Foiled Malls wrote:
can't imagine Egypt would be that dangerous. I know a couple of
girls that hitchhiked in parts of it even, although they did spend a
lot of time fending off the men. Probably one of the trickier places
for independent travel though.

There was a recent suicide bomber that killed a few people in Cairo a
few weeks ago, and then there were the attacks on tourists in the south
a few years ago, so tourists are deliberately being targeted. That
being said, you're probably more likely to be killed there in a traffic
accident.

George

"Rita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > Another thing is knowing the situation for hotels, etc., where you are
    > going. I know, for example, that in Mexico it is possible to get a
    > decent hotel room for very little, because I have traveled all around
    > that country. And thus I'd never book from the Internet that offers only
    > more expensive, but not necessarily better, places. But I don't know
    > about various locales in Europe. Hence this group is very helpful.

Nearly all my traveling is in Europe, and I only ever booked ahead
twice. (In both cases, I knew I would stay for two weeks at the
same place and I had a good idea about what the hotel would be like.)

IME, outside of the high season in the major tourist spots (and London...)
there are always more beds than tourists, and I'm quite flexible in
what accomodation I want and can afford -- a dormitory in a hostel
is fine with me as, but in a pinch I can afford a middle class hotel.

(Two years ago in Poland I had moments of doubt about my strategy,
because I often couldn't find the Tourist Information and didn't speak
the language. Still, it worked out.)

inge

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:56:07 +0200, "Ingeborg Denner" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Rita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected].. .
    >> Another thing is knowing the situation for hotels, etc., where you are
    >> going. I know, for example, that in Mexico it is possible to get a
    >> decent hotel room for very little, because I have traveled all around
    >> that country. And thus I'd never book from the Internet that offers only
    >> more expensive, but not necessarily better, places. But I don't know
    >> about various locales in Europe. Hence this group is very helpful.
    >Nearly all my traveling is in Europe, and I only ever booked ahead
    >twice. (In both cases, I knew I would stay for two weeks at the
    >same place and I had a good idea about what the hotel would be like.)
    >IME, outside of the high season in the major tourist spots (and London...)
    >there are always more beds than tourists, and I'm quite flexible in
    >what accomodation I want and can afford -- a dormitory in a hostel
    >is fine with me as, but in a pinch I can afford a middle class hotel.
    >(Two years ago in Poland I had moments of doubt about my strategy,
    >because I often couldn't find the Tourist Information and didn't speak
    >the language. Still, it worked out.)
This has been my pattern, not to book ahead, and I have been
remarkably lucky in finding low cost acceptable hotel rooms.
I've mixed them with staying in hostels, where I would book ahead
for the first night. But I like to read what others say about
the situation for hotels in general and the costs, etc.
And now I am much older than when I began traveling and less keen
on dragging my bag around while I investigate lodging possibilities.
Less flexibility does mean somewhat higher costs. But I can't turn
the clock back:) I used to set a top end price at the tourist
offices. They would offer me something more expensive. I would
smile and shake my head and stand there. Eventually they came up
with something in my price range. I got the idea they sometimes
had particular hotels they favored, although I may be wrong about
this. Once I got sent to a renovated hotel in Paris at a very
low price. The room was beautiful. And it came with bath. The
problem came when I found the bathroom had no toilet and I had to
walk down three flights of stairs to find one in the hall. Not
good! I was not informed of this in advance by either the tourist
office or the hotel desk. It was the only room in the hotel so
organized. It is this kind of surprise I wish to avoid these
days.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:37:19 GMT, Rita <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:56:07 +0200, "Ingeborg Denner" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>"Rita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email protected]. ..
    >>> Another thing is knowing the situation for hotels, etc., where you are
    >>> going. I know, for example, that in Mexico it is possible to get a
    >>> decent hotel room for very little, because I have traveled all around
    >>> that country. And thus I'd never book from the Internet that offers only
    >>> more expensive, but not necessarily better, places. But I don't know
    >>> about various locales in Europe. Hence this group is very helpful.
    >>Nearly all my traveling is in Europe, and I only ever booked ahead
    >>twice. (In both cases, I knew I would stay for two weeks at the
    >>same place and I had a good idea about what the hotel would be like.)
    >>IME, outside of the high season in the major tourist spots (and London...)
    >>there are always more beds than tourists, and I'm quite flexible in
    >>what accomodation I want and can afford -- a dormitory in a hostel
    >>is fine with me as, but in a pinch I can afford a middle class hotel.
    >>(Two years ago in Poland I had moments of doubt about my strategy,
    >>because I often couldn't find the Tourist Information and didn't speak
    >>the language. Still, it worked out.)
    >This has been my pattern, not to book ahead, and I have been
    >remarkably lucky in finding low cost acceptable hotel rooms.
    >I've mixed them with staying in hostels, where I would book ahead
    >for the first night. But I like to read what others say about
    >the situation for hotels in general and the costs, etc.

As with you guys, I never book rooms unless I am arriving somewhere
strange after a long journey, or will arrive late at night. Never had
a problem yet, although at times it has been a bit frustrating.
Sometimes paid more than I wanted, but usually paid less.

    >And now I am much older than when I began traveling and less keen
    >on dragging my bag around while I investigate lodging possibilities.
    >Less flexibility does mean somewhat higher costs. But I can't turn
    >the clock back:) I used to set a top end price at the tourist
    >offices. They would offer me something more expensive. I would
    >smile and shake my head and stand there. Eventually they came up
    >with something in my price range. I got the idea they sometimes
    >had particular hotels they favored, although I may be wrong about
    >this.

If you just tell them your a poor backpacker, smile, and ask them for
help, they will usually put you on the right path.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

On 22 Apr 2005 03:52:00 -0700, "george" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Deep Foiled Malls wrote:
    >can't imagine Egypt would be that dangerous. I know a couple of
    >girls that hitchhiked in parts of it even, although they did spend a
    >lot of time fending off the men. Probably one of the trickier places
    >for independent travel though.
    >There was a recent suicide bomber that killed a few people in Cairo a
    >few weeks ago, and then there were the attacks on tourists in the south
    >a few years ago, so tourists are deliberately being targeted. That
    >being said, you're probably more likely to be killed there in a traffic
    >accident.

A very good point to remember. Terrorism is one of the lower threats
to your life that there is anywhere on earth.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:54:29 GMT, Deep Foiled Malls
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

    >On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:37:19 GMT, Rita <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:56:07 +0200, "Ingeborg Denner" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>"Rita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email protected] ...
    >>>> Another thing is knowing the situation for hotels, etc., where you are
    >>>> going. I know, for example, that in Mexico it is possible to get a
    >>>> decent hotel room for very little, because I have traveled all around
    >>>> that country. And thus I'd never book from the Internet that offers only
    >>>> more expensive, but not necessarily better, places. But I don't know
    >>>> about various locales in Europe. Hence this group is very helpful.
    >>>Nearly all my traveling is in Europe, and I only ever booked ahead
    >>>twice. (In both cases, I knew I would stay for two weeks at the
    >>>same place and I had a good idea about what the hotel would be like.)
    >>>IME, outside of the high season in the major tourist spots (and London...)
    >>>there are always more beds than tourists, and I'm quite flexible in
    >>>what accomodation I want and can afford -- a dormitory in a hostel
    >>>is fine with me as, but in a pinch I can afford a middle class hotel.
    >>>(Two years ago in Poland I had moments of doubt about my strategy,
    >>>because I often couldn't find the Tourist Information and didn't speak
    >>>the language. Still, it worked out.)
    >>This has been my pattern, not to book ahead, and I have been
    >>remarkably lucky in finding low cost acceptable hotel rooms.
    >>I've mixed them with staying in hostels, where I would book ahead
    >>for the first night. But I like to read what others say about
    >>the situation for hotels in general and the costs, etc.
    >As with you guys, I never book rooms unless I am arriving somewhere
    >strange after a long journey, or will arrive late at night. Never had
    >a problem yet, although at times it has been a bit frustrating.
    >Sometimes paid more than I wanted, but usually paid less.
    >>And now I am much older than when I began traveling and less keen
    >>on dragging my bag around while I investigate lodging possibilities.
    >>Less flexibility does mean somewhat higher costs. But I can't turn
    >>the clock back:) I used to set a top end price at the tourist
    >>offices. They would offer me something more expensive. I would
    >>smile and shake my head and stand there. Eventually they came up
    >>with something in my price range. I got the idea they sometimes
    >>had particular hotels they favored, although I may be wrong about
    >>this.
    >If you just tell them your a poor backpacker, smile, and ask them for
    >help, they will usually put you on the right path.

Now that I'm older I can elicit sympathy. A few years ago I
stupidly arrived in Sorrento late in the day without a place to
stay and soon found the cheaper places were booked. A woman at
the tourist office took pity on me and sent me to a 3 star hotel
that had one room without outside window but very nice and with
full bath for US27 a night. The room had air vents to the corridor
and air conditoning and a huge free breakfast as well.

"george" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ps.com...
    > Keith wrote:
    > Without offending present company, I think the days of travel agents
    > are
    > numbered.
    > I hope not. Good travel agents provide valuable services. I spent a
    > week going around Iceland in early June, 2000 arranged by an Icelandic
    > travel agent (with them providing good detailed instructions). Even
    > he, being extremely knowlegable, had a hard time putting together an
    > interesting itinary to circle Iceland by bus. For me, and any other
    > person not from Iceland, it would have been impossible.

Impossible is a big word. There are thousands of people, including those on
this newgroup, that have booked their own Iceland tours without problem or
incident. I think you are underestimating yourself, and the power of the
Internet. If you want to make an argument that you shouldn't HAVE to, or
you don't WANT to make arrangements yourself, go ahead, but don't turn this
into "it's impossible." I'll give you that circling Iceland by BUS makes it
tougher, but not impossible. Iceland is on our "list", and we won't be
using any travel agents when that time comes.

    > He knew what
    > attractions there were, what attractions were visitable at that time,
    > what accomodations were open, and what all local schedules were.

Bus schedules, train schedules(I'm guessing none in Iceland), plane
schedules, accomodation (including room availability), attractions, etc are
all available online. Lonely planet(2004 publication), Insight's guide to
Iceland (1999 and 2002), as well as other guidebooks are available which
include plenty of useful information. Double check this information by
posting a few messages, making a few phone calls, checking other sites, etc.

    > Try
    > doing that on your own. I doubt that you could, and if you forgot one
    > "minor" detail, your whole expensive trip would be spoiled.

In my travels of US, Canada, Caribbean, Africa, and Europe, I've *never*
made a mistake in planning that wasn't recoverable. I'm not saying I'm
perfect, but shit happens. And when shit happens, you have to have
alternate plans in place. We have had unexpected "minor" things happen, and
you deal with it. We've actually ended up enjoying some of the
"mistakes" --- we eat at places we wouldn't have eaten, or interact with
locals more than we would have, etc.

    > And for traveling in SE Asia, we could not get visas for Myanmar and
    > Vietnam living in Saudi Arabia. The SE Asian travel agency arranged
    > for visas on arrival in both countries which we couldn't do ourselves,
    > allowing us to visit two interesting countries.

Well if it was help with visas, etc, OK. But Airline or hotel accomodations
or general travel arrangements, simply not necessary.

    > And for air travel from Saudi Arabia to 3-4 continents and multiple
    > countries using multiple airlines our SA travel agent always got us
    > remarkedly low airfares which I doubt that you could do yourself, as it
    > really is a full time business.

I visited three continents on one trip using 3 separate airlines, all booked
by myself. Some one-way trips, some by boat, flying in one city, and flying
out of another.

    > Travel is just not simply flying from A to B.

And obviously, I've travelled enough to know this. But I've also travelled
enough to know that what many travel agents do is not "magic." Things have
changed from 10 years ago. Perhaps 10 years ago, you are right. There were
plenty of things travel agents could do for you, that you couldn't do for
yourself. Times have changed, and perhaps if you're still stuck in the old
travel paradigm, maybe YOU can't do this yourself.

For the rest of us, we're happy to eliminate an unnecessary middleman that
provides little or no added value to a trip. If you noticed all the
responses on this thread, the bulk indicate that they'd rather DIY.

You have to be willing to spend the time and effort to want to plan your
trip. I enjoy the details, I enjoy trying to find the lowest airline fares,
I enjoy searching for hotels and getting opinions from people online.

    > George

Keith
Pittsburgh

"Rita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:56:07 +0200, "Ingeborg Denner" <[email protected]>
wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > This has been my pattern, not to book ahead, and I have been
    > remarkably lucky in finding low cost acceptable hotel rooms.

Same here. I guess there generally *are* enough rooms, only it can
happen that you do not find them :-/

inge

Keith wrote:
    > "george" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected] ps.com...
    > > Keith wrote:
    > > Without offending present company, I think the days of travel
agents
    > > are
    > > numbered.
    > >
    > > I hope not. Good travel agents provide valuable services. I spent
a
    > > week going around Iceland in early June, 2000 arranged by an
Icelandic
    > > travel agent (with them providing good detailed instructions).
Even
    > > he, being extremely knowlegable, had a hard time putting together
an
    > > interesting itinary to circle Iceland by bus. For me, and any
other
    > > person not from Iceland, it would have been impossible.
    > Impossible is a big word. There are thousands of people, including
those on
    > this newgroup, that have booked their own Iceland tours without
problem or
    > incident. I think you are underestimating yourself, and the power of
the
    > Internet. If you want to make an argument that you shouldn't HAVE
to, or
    > you don't WANT to make arrangements yourself, go ahead, but don't
turn this
    > into "it's impossible." I'll give you that circling Iceland by BUS
makes it
    > tougher, but not impossible. Iceland is on our "list", and we won't
be
    > using any travel agents when that time comes.
    > > He knew what
    > > attractions there were, what attractions were visitable at that
time,
    > > what accomodations were open, and what all local schedules were.
    > Bus schedules, train schedules(I'm guessing none in Iceland), plane
    > schedules, accomodation (including room availability), attractions,
etc are
    > all available online. Lonely planet(2004 publication), Insight's
guide to
    > Iceland (1999 and 2002), as well as other guidebooks are available
which
    > include plenty of useful information. Double check this information
by
    > posting a few messages, making a few phone calls, checking other
sites, etc.
    > > Try
    > > doing that on your own. I doubt that you could, and if you forgot
one
    > > "minor" detail, your whole expensive trip would be spoiled.
    > In my travels of US, Canada, Caribbean, Africa, and Europe, I've
*never*
    > made a mistake in planning that wasn't recoverable. I'm not saying
I'm
    > perfect, but shit happens. And when shit happens, you have to have
    > alternate plans in place. We have had unexpected "minor" things
happen, and
    > you deal with it. We've actually ended up enjoying some of the
    > "mistakes" --- we eat at places we wouldn't have eaten, or interact
with
    > locals more than we would have, etc.
    > > And for traveling in SE Asia, we could not get visas for Myanmar
and
    > > Vietnam living in Saudi Arabia. The SE Asian travel agency
arranged
    > > for visas on arrival in both countries which we couldn't do
ourselves,
    > > allowing us to visit two interesting countries.
    > Well if it was help with visas, etc, OK. But Airline or hotel
accomodations
    > or general travel arrangements, simply not necessary.
    > > And for air travel from Saudi Arabia to 3-4 continents and multiple
    > > countries using multiple airlines our SA travel agent always got
us
    > > remarkedly low airfares which I doubt that you could do yourself,
as it
    > > really is a full time business.
    > I visited three continents on one trip using 3 separate airlines, all
booked
    > by myself. Some one-way trips, some by boat, flying in one city, and
flying
    > out of another.
    > > Travel is just not simply flying from A to B.
    > And obviously, I've travelled enough to know this. But I've also
travelled
    > enough to know that what many travel agents do is not "magic."
Things have
    > changed from 10 years ago. Perhaps 10 years ago, you are right.
There were
    > plenty of things travel agents could do for you, that you couldn't do
for
    > yourself. Times have changed, and perhaps if you're still stuck in
the old
    > travel paradigm, maybe YOU can't do this yourself.
    > For the rest of us, we're happy to eliminate an unnecessary middleman
that
    > provides little or no added value to a trip. If you noticed all the
    > responses on this thread, the bulk indicate that they'd rather DIY.
    > You have to be willing to spend the time and effort to want to plan
your
    > trip. I enjoy the details, I enjoy trying to find the lowest airline
fares,
    > I enjoy searching for hotels and getting opinions from people online.
    > >
    > > George
    > Keith
    > Pittsburgh

I went to Iceland. I bought a trip from the travel agent and paid my
money.
They were just a conduit for the trip and this was before the internet.

Nowadays you could easily cut them out but could you do it more cheaply
?
If you take the time and effort you could, just depends how busy you
are.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:20:31 +0200, "Ingeborg Denner" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Rita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected].. .
    >> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:56:07 +0200, "Ingeborg Denner" <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >> >
    >> >
    >> This has been my pattern, not to book ahead, and I have been
    >> remarkably lucky in finding low cost acceptable hotel rooms.
    >Same here. I guess there generally *are* enough rooms, only it can
    >happen that you do not find them :-/
    >inge

These days I'm traveling some with a daughter. Her tolerance
for not having a room booked is zilch. And she isn't willing
to put up with some cheaper places. But she is willing to do
the work on the Internet finding hotel rooms that are not
very expensive and since I can share the cost with someone else
it works out about the same for me.