> Padraig Breathnach wrote:
    > So I ask: what do other members of our group do? Do you
    > take packages, or put together your own programmes, or do
    > some of each?

I really enjoy getting into the nuts and bolts of arranging my own
travel. Sure, its more work, but I find that no one single provider
has the best options or best prices. For example, I used different
sources to book the following: A tour of Nero's Golden House
in Rome, a bus tour to Tivoli, a car rental in Florence, a winery
tour in Tuscany, museum tickets in Florence, and a canal tour in
Venice. I doubt that any package could have accommodated this
at the prices which I found by going directly to the provider. =R=

"Padraig Breathnach" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Regular participants in this group might be aware that Herself and I
    > take a number of short-break holidays each year.
    > Sometimes we buy a package, and sometimes we put things together for
    > ourselves.

So what you define as a package contains airfare plus accommodation, nothing
else? Where do you buy these from?

I tend to think of a package tour as including a group, a bus, and short
stops in many places. We did this once on our first trip to Europe. The
hotels were bland and poorly located. I like small hotels, too small for a
tour group, very centrally located, with lots of local color.

And, to tell the truth, I love the research. Obsessively. So I DIM.

Marianne

Mimi wrote:
So what you define as a package contains airfare plus accommodation,
nothing
else? Where do you buy these from?

Most package deals are for airfare plus (one) hotel and possibly meals
(or car) for resort areas of the world and are obtainable from most
travel agents. I can go past the travel agents in Stuttgart and see
in the windows tens of such offers for the Canary Islands, coastal
Spain, Malta, etc. In the US the Sunday papers are also full of such
ads. What you are thinking of is an organized tour.

George

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:26:23 -0700, in rec.travel.europe, "Mimi" <[email protected]>
arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :

...
... "Padraig Breathnach" <[email protected]> wrote in message
... news:[email protected]...
... > Regular participants in this group might be aware that Herself and I
... > take a number of short-break holidays each year.
... >
... > Sometimes we buy a package, and sometimes we put things together for
... > ourselves.
...
... So what you define as a package contains airfare plus accommodation, nothing
... else? Where do you buy these from?

I used one of those the first time I visited Athens - it was much cheaper than buying the
plane tickets and booking a hotel myself, and it even included the ride from and to the
airport.

On 21 Apr 2005 11:41:11 -0700, "george" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Mimi wrote:
    >So what you define as a package contains airfare plus accommodation,
    >nothing
    >else? Where do you buy these from?
    >Most package deals are for airfare plus (one) hotel and possibly meals
    >(or car) for resort areas of the world and are obtainable from most
    >travel agents. I can go past the travel agents in Stuttgart and see
    >in the windows tens of such offers for the Canary Islands, coastal
    >Spain, Malta, etc. In the US the Sunday papers are also full of such
    >ads. What you are thinking of is an organized tour.
    >George

In the U.S. various airlines and hotels offer combination
deals for airfare and hotel. You find them online at sites
such as Orbitz or Travelocity. They often include optional
car rental. The best of them have a very short window to
select them and then they are gone. You can sign up to be
notified by Email of deals to places you want to travel.
For those with flexible schedules, this can be worthwhile.
Some sites quote prices but don't include airport or hotel
taxes and I'd not deal with those.

"Padraig Breathnach" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Sometimes we buy a package, and sometimes we put things together for
    > ourselves.
    > So I ask: what do other members of our group do? Do you take packages,
    > or put together your own programmes, or do some of each?

PB,

We always book our stuff separately. It comes down to the fact that we are
picky. I don't just want any 3/4/5-star hotel, I don't just want any flight
times, I don't just want any restaurants, I don't want x, y, and z city ---
I want x, y, and b city, or whatever. I also like my money to follow
DIRECTLY to the people who are providing the service (whether it be hotel,
flight, etc). I want to pay them myself. What's this mean? If there is a
problem, I want the ability to withhold payment, to change my hotel if its
crappy, etc. Forget these "coupons" that will be honored. Yeah, right.

I don't like this all-inclusive stuff where all your food is covered, but
comes with the strings-attached that it has to be one of three, or one of
five on-site restaurants. Or you can get everything but this steak (the
steak is a $10 upcharge, or you can't order this bottle of wine, etc)

If your money goes through a third party, and that third party doesn't pay
the hotel, the airline, etc --- or doesn't pay them enough, etc etc. --- or
there's a discrepency, then what? Are you going to call hotels.com, or
priceline.com, or GLOBUS, etc from 3000 miles away and wait on hold for 30
minutes? IF they even have phone support? And who cares if they have an
"office" in spain? An office in most countries is one person, and if they
are out to lunch, or if they close at 5pm, tough shitsky.

Oh, and how about "non-refundable" trips that get interrupted do to
weather-related travel problems? If it happens to me, I call the hotel and
cancel the booking, or reschedule it. What do you when it "can't" be
cancelled? I usually only book hotels that don't require any type of
prepayment, no cancellation fees, able to cancel up 6pm day of arrival type
of places.

Overall, we probably end up spending more, but we also end up with higher
quality and more control over our experience. Dollar for dollar I think I
could compete pretty close with most packages on the same level. I don't
argue that there might be deals here or there that are really good values,
but I think you have to be willing to accept what they give you, and be
happy about it.

Without offending present company, I think the days of travel agents are
numbered. Every now and again, when I get bored, I call a couple different
agencies, give them my rough itinerary, and see what they come up with.
They consistently have higher rates on the flights, higher prices on hotels,
and higher prices on rental cars. There are so many online resources now
that give us access to search, that it only takes some diligent work (that I
actually like) to come up with the "best" prices. Factor in a couple
"special rates", some negotiating with the hotel, and I'm doing better than
they are.

Perhaps for a different type of person who wants a "turn-key" solution,
where they simply want to fork one check over to one place, and get on a
plane, perhaps that makes sense. Not for us.

my .02

Keith
Pittsburgh

"Mimi" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Padraig Breathnach" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected].. .
    >> Regular participants in this group might be aware that Herself and I
    >> take a number of short-break holidays each year.
    >> Sometimes we buy a package, and sometimes we put things together for
    >> ourselves.
    >So what you define as a package contains airfare plus accommodation, nothing
    >else? Where do you buy these from?
That's a fairly common product in the Irish market, especially for
short breaks. Accommodation normally includes breakfast and no other
meals. I usually deal with one operator because they have never let me
down. You get what they say you will get: if they say the hotel is
okay, then the hotel is okay; if they say the hotel is good, then the
hotel is good. No set dates, no tour leader, no programme of
activities, nothing like that. They send you tickets, hotel voucher,
and off you go.

    >I tend to think of a package tour as including a group, a bus, and short
    >stops in many places. We did this once on our first trip to Europe. The
    >hotels were bland and poorly located. I like small hotels, too small for a
    >tour group, very centrally located, with lots of local color.
When we were neophytes, we did something like that. Once is enough.
More than enough.

    >And, to tell the truth, I love the research. Obsessively. So I DIM.
I find the research interesting, but sometimes the first research
exercise is simply checking if what Citiescapes (my preferred
operator) is offering me is a good deal. Then I research the
destination to figure out how we will spend our time.

My travel programme this year are a fair indication of how I approach
things: the Venice trip was organised by be (with much help from
r.t.e. participants); the Stockholm trip was a
flights-and-accommodation package; next month's trip to Brittany is
quite unstructured, in that I'll get on the ferry, arrive in
Cherbourg, and take it from there (yes, I do know Cherbourg is in
Normandy).

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

Tom Peel <[email protected]> wrote:

    > You didn't specify whether you were asking the European group members
    >or our international friends.
Nobody is precluded from joining in the conversation!

But I confess that, living in Europe, my mindset in posing the
question was Eurocentric.

    > For vacationing in Europe I would never even consider taking a
    >package. The last one we took was nearly 20 years ago. Nowadays we just
    >throw everything in the car and drive off. Last year we did that and
    >drove down through Italy to south of Naples to the Cilento area, an
    >incredibly beautiful area virtually unknown outside of Italy. The year
    >before we went to Croatia island hopping. We never had any problem
    >finding somewhere to stay, and we could pick and choose what we liked.
Island hopping? What sort of car do you drive?

    > I would consider making an exception for a flight/hotel combination
    >for a brief city tour. Even then, the last ones we did (Berlin, Naples)
    >we simply organised ourselves.
That's the sort of package we sometimes buy. I don't often go to the
operator's website, but I'm on their email list, and they notify me of
special offers. Sometimes they just press the right button: a
destination we like at dates we can manage.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

Rita <[email protected]> wrote:

    >You who are situated in Europe have a big advantage over those of us
    >who are not.
For sure, if the destination is in Europe.

    >We have to look at substantial air fare so a deal that
    >lowers that and includes hotel can at times work well.
When airfares within Europe were high, it was often the case that a
travel and accommodation package cost no more, or very little more,
than a travel-only deal. I suspect that such may still apply if your
travel to Europe is long-haul and expensive.

    >Another thing is knowing the situation for hotels, etc., where you are
    >going. I know, for example, that in Mexico it is possible to get a
    >decent hotel room for very little, because I have traveled all around
    >that country. And thus I'd never book from the Internet that offers only
    >more expensive, but not necessarily better, places. But I don't know
    >about various locales in Europe. Hence this group is very helpful.
This group is a great resource. Wherever in (or even outside) Europe
you want to travel, you are likely to encounter people with relevant
experience.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:50:09 +0100, Padraig Breathnach <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >Rita <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>You who are situated in Europe have a big advantage over those of us
    >>who are not.
    >For sure, if the destination is in Europe.
    >>We have to look at substantial air fare so a deal that
    >>lowers that and includes hotel can at times work well.
    >When airfares within Europe were high, it was often the case that a
    >travel and accommodation package cost no more, or very little more,
    >than a travel-only deal. I suspect that such may still apply if your
    >travel to Europe is long-haul and expensive.

I live in New York City so airfares to Europe for me are far better
than from many parts of the U.S. And there are many airlines to
choose from that serve New York area airports.

What I dislike the most if having to specify a return date. Some
years ago one could fly standby from New York and I loved that.
When my money ran out, I came home.

There are some good package deals available now and then for
travel within the U.S. but for the most part I visit children
and am leaving for Dallas, Texas tomorrow and then on to Southern
California and will visit a son working in Dallas and a son in
San Diego, another in Corona del Mar and a daughter in Santa Barbara.
Not too shabby!

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:00:20 +0100, Padraig Breathnach <[email protected]>
wrote:
<[email protected]>

    >So I ask: what do other members of our group do? Do you take packages,
    >or put together your own programmes, or do some of each?

The Internet is a wonderful resource. It takes a fair bit of work to put a
successful vacation program together, but in my opinion it's well worth it.

I do all my own planning. Vacation pix at http://nisus.home.mindspring.com


(change Arabic number to Roman numeral to email)

In article <[email protected]>, Padraig
Breathnach <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Regular participants in this group might be aware that Herself and I
    > take a number of short-break holidays each year.
    >
    > Sometimes we buy a package, and sometimes we put things together for
    > ourselves.

'weekenders' can often be good package deals, like when we go to Cabo
San Lucas,MX... I book the flight, ocean view room and transfers as a
package. Or Ski trips you can often save a lot by packaging things
that you will buy anyway; air, room, pass and rentals.

Anything besides that, I book direct. I want to have a documented
relationship with the Hotel... as often I'm requesting a specific
room... while "packages" will often forward these types of requests
along, yet you can be surprised on arrival:"I'm sorry, we did not get
your request from your agent, you should contact them...."

jay
Thu Apr 21, 2005
mailto:[email protected]





    >
    > When I am tempted by a package, I look at the deal and check how much
    > it would cost to book the components myself (usually just flight and
    > accommodation). In only one case that I checked out could I get a
    > better deal that way. I might do better by being flexible on
    > accommodation, but I find that the travel company I most often use is
    > good on hotels, and confidence that the accommodation will be good is
    > worth something. Other advantages of buying a package are convenience
    > (a minor point, to my mind) and the legal responsibility of the tour
    > operator if things go wrong (in the EU, consumer protection law on
    > package holidays is strong -- but I am not particularly litigious, so
    > it is a consideration to which I do not give a great deal of thought.
    >
    > Yesterday I read a piece in "Consumer Choice", a publication of the
    > Consumer Association of Ireland (something like "Which?" in the UK)
    > which concluded that it is almost always cheaper to go the DIY route,
    > and sometimes more than 30% cheaper. I am a little suspicious of the
    > piece because of the way in which some tour operators in Ireland
    > calculate their headline prices: oddly, you can buy some packages more
    > cheaply than the published price if you choose dates with good
    > availability of bargain flights.
    >
    > So I ask: what do other members of our group do? Do you take packages,
    > or put together your own programmes, or do some of each?

    > On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:00:20 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]>
    > >So I ask: what do other members of our group do? Do you take
packages,
    > >or put together your own programmes, or do some of each?

I've used very few travel packages and haven't been happy with most of
them. I've been doing my own planning since long before there was an
Internet. Back then I would figure out just want I wnated and either
write/phone ahead or have my travel agent do some of the work. But I
usually stay at cheaper/smaller hotels that don't pay commissions so
travel agents won 't deal with them.

Keith wrote:
Without offending present company, I think the days of travel agents
are
numbered.

I hope not. Good travel agents provide valuable services. I spent a
week going around Iceland in early June, 2000 arranged by an Icelandic
travel agent (with them providing good detailed instructions). Even
he, being extremely knowlegable, had a hard time putting together an
interesting itinary to circle Iceland by bus. For me, and any other
person not from Iceland, it would have been impossible. He knew what
attractions there were, what attractions were visitable at that time,
what accomodations were open, and what all local schedules were. If I
did this on my own and misjudged a stop, it could be only corrected by
bus next day, and there was always the weekly ferry schedule to Iceland
to cope with. And when I got to Akureyri where they had their office,
there was a message to give them a call. A bus strike was planned for
the next day so he was able to get me airline tickets to bypass that
problem area. I didn't have to arrive at the bus station the next day
and wonder where the bus was, find out what the problem was, and settle
it on my own trying to get a flight (which I didn't even know existed)
and getting a partial refund on my bus ticket. I would have hated to
try doing that possibly in Icelandic. And while I was waiting at the
travel agency's office, he made rapid arrangements in a few minutes for
a small group of Japanese tourists to heliski in Greenland and also use
the helicopter to film, making all pertinent travel arrangements. Try
doing that on your own. I doubt that you could, and if you forgot one
"minor" detail, your whole expensive trip would be spoiled.

And for traveling in SE Asia, we could not get visas for Myanmar and
Vietnam living in Saudi Arabia. The SE Asian travel agency arranged
for visas on arrival in both countries which we couldn't do ourselves,
allowing us to visit two interesting countries.

And for air travel from Saudi Arabia to 3-4 continents and multiple
countries using multiple airlines our SA travel agent always got us
remarkedly low airfares which I doubt that you could do yourself, as it
really is a full time business.

Travel is just not simply flying from A to B.

George

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:49:34 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >That's a fairly common product in the Irish market, especially for
    >short breaks. Accommodation normally includes breakfast and no other
    >meals. I usually deal with one operator because they have never let me
    >down. You get what they say you will get: if they say the hotel is
    >okay, then the hotel is okay; if they say the hotel is good, then the
    >hotel is good. No set dates, no tour leader, no programme of
    >activities, nothing like that. They send you tickets, hotel voucher,
    >and off you go.

It seems to me that in Italy, the totally organized package is most
common. There are lots of flight/hotel combinations for tropical
island destinations, but for other destinations in Europe (or Asia or
Africa), what I mostly see is packaged tours.

My husband would like to go to Egypt one of these days and I almost
had him convinced that we could DIO, but then some Italians who had
been there insisted that it would be very dangerous to wander around
Egypt without a babysitter. I'm hoping that a year or two from now, he
won't remember that advice.



    >>I tend to think of a package tour as including a group, a bus, and short
    >>stops in many places. We did this once on our first trip to Europe. The
    >>hotels were bland and poorly located. I like small hotels, too small for a
    >>tour group, very centrally located, with lots of local color.
    >When we were neophytes, we did something like that. Once is enough.
    >More than enough.
    >>And, to tell the truth, I love the research. Obsessively. So I DIM.
    >I find the research interesting, but sometimes the first research
    >exercise is simply checking if what Citiescapes (my preferred
    >operator) is offering me is a good deal. Then I research the
    >destination to figure out how we will spend our time.
    >My travel programme this year are a fair indication of how I approach
    >things: the Venice trip was organised by be (with much help from
    >r.t.e. participants); the Stockholm trip was a
    >flights-and-accommodation package; next month's trip to Brittany is
    >quite unstructured, in that I'll get on the ferry, arrive in
    >Cherbourg, and take it from there (yes, I do know Cherbourg is in
    >Normandy).

--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup