On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:13:38 +0200, "Alan \(in Brussels\)"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >In the message news:[email protected]...
    >"ALAN HARRISON" <[email protected]> wrote
    >> "tile" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >> > of course. it depends on the train..
    >> > there are local trains and fast trains
    >> > this train has a special track and has a very nice rocketstyle shape.
    >> Do you have a link for any details of the train? I'll just check out IRA.
    >> (N.B. That's the Italian railfans site, not an organisation to which Mr
    >> Gerard Adams may or may not belong.)
    >According to an ANSI report on 15 Sep, the train was an ETR 500. It quotes a
    >spokeman for the FS as saying that this was just one among a series of test
    >runs on the new line (much of which is indeed beside an autostrada), and
    >therefore no special announcement was made.
    >http://www.ansa.it/infrastrutturetra...333627094.html

I read somewhere that testing of the new, yet to be completed Thalys
HSR line will take 2 years in NL.
--
Martin

Lennart Petersen <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy"
    > <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:1h31e33.1opst9918njlw2N%this_address_is_for_s [email protected]...
    > > Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 05:56:24 -0400, "Robert J Carpenter"
    > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >Does the track along side an Autostrada? I recall that a train from
    > >> >Firenze to Rome ran beside one and the cars were going faster than the
    > >> >train.
    > >>
    > >> The cars go faster than the trains in the Netherlands too, when they
    > >> aren't in a traffic jam :-)
    > >
    > > In the UK it depends on the line. The longer distance lines will have
    > > trains going quite a bit faster than the traffic on the motorways. In
    > > nearly all cases, many of the cars could probably _go_ at the same speed
    > > of the trains, but their drivers would get into a bit of trouble if
    > > caught! :)
    > In nearly all cases the train can go faster than scheduled , "but their
    > drivers would get into a bit of trouble..... "

Well, I was referring specifically to the UK, where there is certainly
padding in the schedules, but in fact most of the tracks wouldn't really
be suitable for the trains going faster than they currently do. The
Pendolino trains in the UK can go at about 136 mph, but I don't believe
they're allowed to go faster than around 125mph, and only then on
certain portions of the track.

--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
photos at http://homepage.mac.com/davidhornecomposer

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 05:48:09 -0700, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In article <[email protected] .com>,
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Martin wrote:
    >> > On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 05:56:24 -0400, "Robert J Carpenter"
    >> > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> > >Does the track along side an Autostrada? I recall that a train from
    >> > >Firenze to Rome ran beside one and the cars were going faster than the
    >> > >train.
    >> >
    >> > The cars go faster than the trains in the Netherlands too, when they
    >> > aren't in a traffic jam :-)
    >>
    >> They still go faster than Thalys, since it spends half its life sitting
    >> in the middle of a field.
    >That is what happened to me, but then we went in reverse for about 30
    >min... they said they will have their own tracks in 2008... we were
    >50min late on the Paris-> Amsterdam run.

How long did it take?

AFAIR the TEE used to take about 5 hours but run on time in the
nineteen sixties.
--
Martin

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 14:32:03 +0100, [email protected]
(chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h
offy) wrote:

    >Lennart Petersen <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> "chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco 24h offy"
    >> <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
    >> news:1h31e33.1opst9918njlw2N%this_address_is_for_s [email protected]...
    >> > Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 05:56:24 -0400, "Robert J Carpenter"
    >> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> >Does the track along side an Autostrada? I recall that a train from
    >> >> >Firenze to Rome ran beside one and the cars were going faster than the
    >> >> >train.
    >> >>
    >> >> The cars go faster than the trains in the Netherlands too, when they
    >> >> aren't in a traffic jam :-)
    >> >
    >> > In the UK it depends on the line. The longer distance lines will have
    >> > trains going quite a bit faster than the traffic on the motorways. In
    >> > nearly all cases, many of the cars could probably _go_ at the same speed
    >> > of the trains, but their drivers would get into a bit of trouble if
    >> > caught! :)
    >> In nearly all cases the train can go faster than scheduled , "but their
    >> drivers would get into a bit of trouble..... "
    >Well, I was referring specifically to the UK, where there is certainly
    >padding in the schedules, but in fact most of the tracks wouldn't really
    >be suitable for the trains going faster than they currently do. The
    >Pendolino trains in the UK can go at about 136 mph, but I don't believe
    >they're allowed to go faster than around 125mph, and only then on
    >certain portions of the track.

Doesn't the Pendolino suffer similar problems to the UK attempt to
build something similar 25 years ago? Cue Punch cartoon of man peeing
on the toilet wall as train goes around a tight bend.
--
Martin

"Martin" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de
news:[email protected]...
    > On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:13:38 +0200, "Alan \(in Brussels\)"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
<SNIP>
    > >>
    > >According to an ANSI report on 15 Sep, the train was an ETR 500. It
quotes a
    > >spokeman for the FS as saying that this was just one among a series of
test
    > >runs on the new line (much of which is indeed beside an autostrada), and
    > >therefore no special announcement was made.
    >http://www.ansa.it/infrastrutturetra...errovie/200509
15200333627094.html
    > I read somewhere that testing of the new, yet to be completed Thalys
    > HSR line will take 2 years in NL.

It shouldn't take as long as that for the track alone, if the Belgian and
French experience with TGVs is any guide. But in the case of the HSL Zuid,
there will be several new types of high-speed trains to test too, and that
can indeed take a long time (depending on when they are actually delivered
and how much access they can get). Probably the only problem for Thalys will
be the new European standard cab-signalling system ERTMS, which hasn't yet
been used at such speeds.
BTW AFAIK all the new tracks north of Antwerp for the new line beside the
E19 motorway in Belgium are already in place, and work there is now
concentrated on electrification and signalling.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:42:23 +0200, "Alan \(in Brussels\)"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Martin" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de
    >news:[email protected].. .
    >> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:13:38 +0200, "Alan \(in Brussels\)"
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    ><SNIP>
    >> >>
    >> >According to an ANSI report on 15 Sep, the train was an ETR 500. It
    >quotes a
    >> >spokeman for the FS as saying that this was just one among a series of
    >test
    >> >runs on the new line (much of which is indeed beside an autostrada), and
    >> >therefore no special announcement was made.
    >>http://www.ansa.it/infrastrutturetra...errovie/200509
    >15200333627094.html
    >> I read somewhere that testing of the new, yet to be completed Thalys
    >> HSR line will take 2 years in NL.
    >It shouldn't take as long as that for the track alone, if the Belgian and
    >French experience with TGVs is any guide.

Googling, it is hoped to have the line open by April 2007, but delays
of up to six months are possible.
--
Martin

"Martin" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de
news:[email protected]...
    > On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 05:48:09 -0700, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >In article <[email protected] .com>,
    > ><[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Martin wrote:
    > >> > On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 05:56:24 -0400, "Robert J Carpenter"
    > >> > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> > >Does the track along side an Autostrada? I recall that a train from
    > >> > >Firenze to Rome ran beside one and the cars were going faster than
the
    > >> > >train.
    > >> >
    > >> > The cars go faster than the trains in the Netherlands too, when they
    > >> > aren't in a traffic jam :-)
    > >>
    > >> They still go faster than Thalys, since it spends half its life sitting
    > >> in the middle of a field.
    > >
    > >That is what happened to me, but then we went in reverse for about 30
    > >min... they said they will have their own tracks in 2008... we were
    > >50min late on the Paris-> Amsterdam run.
    > How long did it take?
    > AFAIR the TEE used to take about 5 hours but run on time in the
    > nineteen sixties.

In my experience the Thalys either runs very close to time, or is
dramatically late (eg when it loses its path on tracks shared with other
rail traffic). Although the last three km of new track into Brussels Midi is
still under construction, yesterday I saw one arrive there 6 mins ahead of
the very tight schedule (1h25 min) from Paris Nord! But I've occasionally
seen Thalys running over an hour late here. A substantial acceleration
to/from the Netherlands will be obtained next year when the new through
tunnel (Berchem - Luchtbal) under Antwerp Central station opens.

Regards,

- Alan (in Brussels)

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:54:09 +0200, "Alan \(in Brussels\)"
<[email protected]> wrote:


    >In my experience the Thalys either runs very close to time, or is
    >dramatically late (eg when it loses its path on tracks shared with other
    >rail traffic). Although the last three km of new track into Brussels Midi is
    >still under construction, yesterday I saw one arrive there 6 mins ahead of
    >the very tight schedule (1h25 min) from Paris Nord! But I've occasionally
    >seen Thalys running over an hour late here. A substantial acceleration
    >to/from the Netherlands will be obtained next year when the new through
    >tunnel (Berchem - Luchtbal) under Antwerp Central station opens.

We had every year we had a 3 week summer holiday in Brittany in the
late 1980 and early 1990s. It was not uncommon for the TGV to get
stuck when the pantograph thing came off the overhead wires. There was
some sort of problem of waves building up in the wires when the train
travelled at speed.
--
Martin

In article <[email protected]>, Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 05:48:09 -0700, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >In article <[email protected] .com>,
    > ><[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Martin wrote:
    > >> > On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 05:56:24 -0400, "Robert J Carpenter"
    > >> > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> > >Does the track along side an Autostrada? I recall that a train from
    > >> > >Firenze to Rome ran beside one and the cars were going faster than the
    > >> > >train.
    > >> >
    > >> > The cars go faster than the trains in the Netherlands too, when they
    > >> > aren't in a traffic jam :-)
    > >>
    > >> They still go faster than Thalys, since it spends half its life sitting
    > >> in the middle of a field.
    > >
    > >That is what happened to me, but then we went in reverse for about 30
    > >min... they said they will have their own tracks in 2008... we were
    > >50min late on the Paris-> Amsterdam run.
    >
    > How long did it take?

4:55.

    >
    > AFAIR the TEE used to take about 5 hours but run on time in the
    > nineteen sixties.


The "Ile de France" route.

I loved the TEEs, my favorites were; Ligure, Gottardo and the
Settebello, which I often took weekly... 6hrs.

jay
Sat Sep 17, 2005
mailto:[email protected]

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 07:05:28 -0700, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, Martin
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 05:48:09 -0700, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> >In article <[email protected] .com>,
    >> ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> Martin wrote:
    >> >> > On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 05:56:24 -0400, "Robert J Carpenter"
    >> >> > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >> >
    >> >> > >Does the track along side an Autostrada? I recall that a train from
    >> >> > >Firenze to Rome ran beside one and the cars were going faster than the
    >> >> > >train.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > The cars go faster than the trains in the Netherlands too, when they
    >> >> > aren't in a traffic jam :-)
    >> >>
    >> >> They still go faster than Thalys, since it spends half its life sitting
    >> >> in the middle of a field.
    >> >
    >> >That is what happened to me, but then we went in reverse for about 30
    >> >min... they said they will have their own tracks in 2008... we were
    >> >50min late on the Paris-> Amsterdam run.
    >>
    >> How long did it take?
    >4:55.

That's not a very big improvement in performance. :-)

    >>
    >> AFAIR the TEE used to take about 5 hours but run on time in the
    >> nineteen sixties.
    >The "Ile de France" route.
    >I loved the TEEs, my favorites were; Ligure, Gottardo and the
    >Settebello, which I often took weekly... 6hrs.

I only ever did Hague-Paris-Hague.
--
Martin

well it is difficult to compare building railways track in Belgium or
Holland with building in Italy
we have mostly hills and mountains.
the new line between Bologna and Firenze runs 90% in new tunnels under the
Appennini Mountains..
while new train stations underground have to be built both in Firenze and
Bologna. ( with archeological problems )
the train station in Firenze will be completely new.
as the old one is a TERMINAL STATION ( Santa Maria Novella ) while the new
one will be a transit station.

I do not agree about flying being better than trains.
today. you have to be at the airport about one hour in advance. then you
lose time to go to and from airports.
from town centres to to town centres trains are better than flights.
let us take Milano Rome ( assuming that you are using Milano Linate Airport
and not Malpensa )
by fast train.. it should take about 2.30 hours
by plane it takes one hour ( flight time ) plus plus plus
add to that that Italian railways introduced low cost trains ( as low as 9
eur milano rome )
I think the train cannot be beaten
of course. if it is on time
I took twice the Thalys from paris to brussels
to Brussels it was very nice and good
to paris. the train station in paris was on fire.
( or control cabins were on fire.. )
we were delayed about 3 hours and had to go to another train station.
but this cannot be normal.
"Martin" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:[email protected]...
    > On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:42:23 +0200, "Alan \(in Brussels\)"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>"Martin" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de
    >>news:[email protected]. ..
    >>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:13:38 +0200, "Alan \(in Brussels\)"
    >>> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >><SNIP>
    >>> >>
    >>> >According to an ANSI report on 15 Sep, the train was an ETR 500. It
    >>quotes a
    >>> >spokeman for the FS as saying that this was just one among a series of
    >>test
    >>> >runs on the new line (much of which is indeed beside an autostrada),
    >>> >and
    >>> >therefore no special announcement was made.
    >>>http://www.ansa.it/infrastrutturetra...errovie/200509
    >>15200333627094.html
    >>> I read somewhere that testing of the new, yet to be completed Thalys
    >>> HSR line will take 2 years in NL.
    >>It shouldn't take as long as that for the track alone, if the Belgian and
    >>French experience with TGVs is any guide.
    > Googling, it is hoped to have the line open by April 2007, but delays
    > of up to six months are possible.
    > --
    > Martin

In article <[email protected]>, Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 07:05:28 -0700, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >In article <[email protected]>, Martin
    > ><[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 05:48:09 -0700, Go Fig <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >In article <[email protected] .com>,
    > >> ><[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> >> Martin wrote:
    > >> >> > On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 05:56:24 -0400, "Robert J Carpenter"
    > >> >> > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > >Does the track along side an Autostrada? I recall that a train from
    > >> >> > >Firenze to Rome ran beside one and the cars were going faster than
    > >> >> > >the
    > >> >> > >train.
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > The cars go faster than the trains in the Netherlands too, when they
    > >> >> > aren't in a traffic jam :-)
    > >> >>
    > >> >> They still go faster than Thalys, since it spends half its life sitting
    > >> >> in the middle of a field.
    > >> >
    > >> >That is what happened to me, but then we went in reverse for about 30
    > >> >min... they said they will have their own tracks in 2008... we were
    > >> >50min late on the Paris-> Amsterdam run.
    > >>
    > >> How long did it take?
    > >
    > >4:55.
    >
    > That's not a very big improvement in performance. :-)

And no white linen tablecloths and china in the restaurant car... opps
snack-car.

What was also frustrating was that THA 9321 is meant to have Wi-Fi,
these didn't.

jay
Sat Sep 17, 2005
mailto:[email protected]




    >
    > >
    > >>
    > >> AFAIR the TEE used to take about 5 hours but run on time in the
    > >> nineteen sixties.
    > >
    > >
    > >The "Ile de France" route.
    > >
    > >I loved the TEEs, my favorites were; Ligure, Gottardo and the
    > >Settebello, which I often took weekly... 6hrs.
    >
    > I only ever did Hague-Paris-Hague.

Martin wrote on Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:57:23 +0200:

??>> In my experience the Thalys either runs very close to
??>> time, or is dramatically late (eg when it loses its path
??>> on tracks shared with other rail traffic). Although the
??>> last three km of new track into Brussels Midi is still
??>> under construction, yesterday I saw one arrive there 6
??>> mins ahead of the very tight schedule (1h25 min) from
??>> Paris Nord! But I've occasionally seen Thalys running over
??>> an hour late here. A substantial acceleration to/from the
??>> Netherlands will be obtained next year when the new
??>> through tunnel (Berchem - Luchtbal) under Antwerp Central
??>> station opens.

M> We had every year we had a 3 week summer holiday in Brittany
M> in the late 1980 and early 1990s. It was not uncommon for
M> the TGV to get stuck when the pantograph thing came off the
M> overhead wires. There was some sort of problem of waves
M> building up in the wires when the train travelled at speed.

I like fast train travel especially for distances of 200 to 500
miles (300-800km) and I can agree that encouraging such trains
is in the national interest and ecologically sound. However, can
anyone tell me if any cost analysis shows that the fares charged
are sufficient to maintain the trains, special tracks and debt
service? Are European fast lines subsidized from taxes and is
there any intention to make them self sufficient?

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 11:26:53 -0400, "James Silverton"
<not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.net> wrote:

    >Martin wrote on Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:57:23 +0200:
    > ??>> In my experience the Thalys either runs very close to
    > ??>> time, or is dramatically late (eg when it loses its path
    > ??>> on tracks shared with other rail traffic). Although the
    > ??>> last three km of new track into Brussels Midi is still
    > ??>> under construction, yesterday I saw one arrive there 6
    > ??>> mins ahead of the very tight schedule (1h25 min) from
    > ??>> Paris Nord! But I've occasionally seen Thalys running over
    > ??>> an hour late here. A substantial acceleration to/from the
    > ??>> Netherlands will be obtained next year when the new
    > ??>> through tunnel (Berchem - Luchtbal) under Antwerp Central
    > ??>> station opens.
    > M> We had every year we had a 3 week summer holiday in Brittany
    > M> in the late 1980 and early 1990s. It was not uncommon for
    > M> the TGV to get stuck when the pantograph thing came off the
    > M> overhead wires. There was some sort of problem of waves
    > M> building up in the wires when the train travelled at speed.
    >I like fast train travel especially for distances of 200 to 500
    >miles (300-800km) and I can agree that encouraging such trains
    >is in the national interest and ecologically sound. However, can
    >anyone tell me if any cost analysis shows that the fares charged
    >are sufficient to maintain the trains, special tracks and debt
    >service? Are European fast lines subsidized from taxes and is
    >there any intention to make them self sufficient?

Why are they ecologically sound?
--
Martin

Martin [on Sat, 17 Sep 2005 17:28:58 +0200] wrote:
    > On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 11:26:53 -0400, "James Silverton"
    > <not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.net> wrote:

    > > I can agree that encouraging such trains
    > >is in the national interest and ecologically sound.

    > Why are they ecologically sound?

Because they don't burn any gas.

--
Low Countries By Bike - http://lowcountriesbybike.ardane.com
Riding on two wheels in Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany