On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:35:49 GMT, "William Black" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:03:36 GMT, "William Black"
>> <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"David Horne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:1i234sc.sz2s2hpkiv5cN%[email protected].. .
>>>> Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:17:41 +0100, [email protected] (David Horne)
>>>>> wrote:
>>>> []
>>>>> An ex-colleague has a Rolex clone that he bought for a fiver in a
>>>>> market
>>>>> in A'dam around 1985 that still looks like it is made of gold and still
>>>>> keeps more accurate time than the real thing.
>>>>
>>>> I bought a fake in Bangkok, and it fell apart within 6 months. He's
>>>> lucky!
>>>
>>>There are several different qualities of fake Rolex watches.
>>>
>>>They range from cheap copies that are the wrong colour and don't have the
>>>proper winder to expensive automatics with decent hallmarks
>>
>> "real" hallmarks?
>
>Amongst other things I'm a trained jeweller and silversmith.
>
>The marks looked good to me, even through a loupe.
>
>Of course the 18 Carat gold marks on a stainless steel watch case were
>something of a giveaway...
>
>But, to be honest, if the plating on a gold one was decent plating I'd be
>very pressed to spot the difference.
>
>Certainly they've got the sweep hand 'juddering' thing solved so you can no
>longer tell the difference by looking at the sweep hand. You've got to open
>the case, which in non-trivial unless you've got a special 'Rolex tool
>kit', although you can buy a copy of that now as well...

My vision of assayers marking 50,000,000 Rolex clones is shattered.
--

Martin

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:42:43 GMT, "William Black"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>
>What is considered 'classic' and suave in Milan may well be considered
>vulgar and over dressed in a sophisticated suburb/village in the Romagna


and how is this different from say the US, where what would be
appropriate for business or a night out in NYC, would be viewed as way
over the top for pudunk usa?

"Jim Ley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:19:03 +0100, "JohnT"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Unfortunately, it is almost certainly the case that a shirt which costs so
>>little has been made in a sweatshop in Bangladesh or some other equally
>>impoverished Country
>
> Why is that unfortunate? Would you rather the money goes into the
> pocket of a relatively very, very rich Italian?


I would rather hope that the person making the garment were paid a
reasonable wage.
--

JohnT

JohnT <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Jim Ley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:19:03 +0100, "JohnT"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>Unfortunately, it is almost certainly the case that a shirt which costs so
> >>little has been made in a sweatshop in Bangladesh or some other equally
> >>impoverished Country
> >
> > Why is that unfortunate? Would you rather the money goes into the
> > pocket of a relatively very, very rich Italian?
>
>
> I would rather hope that the person making the garment were paid a
> reasonable wage.

Where do you buy your clothes then? Even expensive designer wear is
often made in third world countries at slave labour rates. I agree with
you it's bad, but if you just shop on the high street, the price of a
garment is no guarantee that people will have been well paid.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"Abominable, loyal, blind, apparently subservient."
Pres. Carter on Ex-Pres. Blair- May, 2007

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:30:42 GMT, "William Black"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>So you wear overalls to go shopping?

>They're functional, durable, comfortable and even cheap.

Lots of people do, even here in Italy. I don't, because for a woman
they're not convenient if you have to pee.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:42:43 GMT, "William Black"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:09:00 GMT, "William Black"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>So you are a resident of the United States...
>>>
>>>Thought so.
>>
>> I'm having a lot of trouble getting your point. Did you consider the
>> original article an insightful cultural analysis?
>
>No.
>
>I'm more interested in the origins of the writer than of the article
>
>Fashion is subjective.
>
>The original article tells me far more about the cultural origins of the
>writer than about fashion in Italy.
>
>Having travelled extensively in Italy I know damn well that Italians vary in
>their approach to fashion and what will be considered fashionable and
>desirable in a city in Southern Italy will be considered gauche and naive
>in Milan.
>
>What is considered 'classic' and suave in Milan may well be considered
>vulgar and over dressed in a sophisticated suburb/village in the Romagna

This is where you're losing me. I assume the original piece was
written by an American. An American writes a piece of trash; several
other Americans call it a piece of trash. What is the relevance of
their nationality?
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:53:33 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, Martin <[email protected]>
arranged some electrons, so they looked like this:

... On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:36:20 +0200, Magda <[email protected]> wrote:
...
... >On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:12:51 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, Martin <[email protected]>
... >arranged some electrons, so they looked like this:
... >
... > ... On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:05:50 +0200, Magda <[email protected]> wrote:
... > ...
... > ... >On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:58:22 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, B Vaughan<[email protected]>
... > ... >arranged some electrons, so they looked like this:
... > ... >
... > ... > ... On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:44:41 +0200, Magda <[email protected]> wrote:
... > ... > ...
... > ... > ... >On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:28:44 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, B Vaughan<[email protected]>
... > ... > ... >arranged some electrons, so they looked like this:
... > ... > ... >
... > ... > ... > ... On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:39:59 +0200, Magda <[email protected]> wrote:
... > ... > ... > ...
... > ... > ... > ... >On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:06:50 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, B Vaughan<[email protected]>
... > ... > ... > ... >arranged some electrons, so they looked like this:
... > ... > ... > ... >
... > ... > ... > ... > ... On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:20:22 +0200, Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
... > ... > ... > ... > ...
... > ... > ... > ... > ... >The shirts I bought in an expensive shop in Milan were probably the poorest
... > ... > ... > ... > ... >quality I have bought anywhere.
... > ... > ... > ... > ...
... > ... > ... > ... > ... I have also found the quality of clothes made in Italy to be a bit
... > ... > ... > ... > ... substandard at times. My husband bought a rather expensive shirt whose
... > ... > ... > ... >
... > ... > ... > ... >Does the shirt have name, address & social security number?
... > ... > ... > ...
... > ... > ... > ... My dear, I know what you're trying to say, but that rule is absolutely
... > ... > ... > ... antiquated.
... > ... > ... >
... > ... > ... >So what? Are we going to set the pyramids on fire because they are old, too?
... > ... > ...
... > ... > ... I have a book that says you should always wear white gloves when you
... > ... > ... go out to lunch, but I think I can safely ignore that one.
... > ... > ...
... > ... > ... >You made a mistake. Live with it.
... > ... > ...
... > ... > ... I didn't make a mistake; I know the stupid old rule very well.
... > ... >
... > ... >It shows.
... > ...
... > ... Yahboo! Go to bed.
... >
... >Done.
...
... but not for long?

I'm not retired like you, band of sleepers...

"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:42:43 GMT, "William Black"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]. ..
>>> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:09:00 GMT, "William Black"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>So you are a resident of the United States...
>>>>
>>>>Thought so.
>>>
>>> I'm having a lot of trouble getting your point. Did you consider the
>>> original article an insightful cultural analysis?
>>
>>No.
>>
>>I'm more interested in the origins of the writer than of the article
>>
>>Fashion is subjective.
>>
>>The original article tells me far more about the cultural origins of the
>>writer than about fashion in Italy.
>>
>>Having travelled extensively in Italy I know damn well that Italians vary
>>in
>>their approach to fashion and what will be considered fashionable and
>>desirable in a city in Southern Italy will be considered gauche and naive
>>in Milan.
>>
>>What is considered 'classic' and suave in Milan may well be considered
>>vulgar and over dressed in a sophisticated suburb/village in the Romagna
>
> This is where you're losing me. I assume the original piece was
> written by an American. An American writes a piece of trash; several
> other Americans call it a piece of trash. What is the relevance of
> their nationality?

The article cited was in an English newspaper. Does someone know the writer
is an American?

Marianne

> What is considered 'classic' and suave in Milan may well be considered
> vulgar and over dressed in a sophisticated suburb/village in the Romagna
>
> --
> William Black

This is one of those rare but tasty threads on AGC that combine
surrealism, out-of-body disorientation, and unrecognizable form or
function.

Sister Mary Margaret wrote:


> > What is considered 'classic' and suave in Milan may well be considered
> > vulgar and over dressed in a sophisticated suburb/village in the Romagna
>
> > --
> > William Black
>
> This is one of those rare but tasty threads on AGC that combine
> surrealism, out-of-body disorientation, and unrecognizable form or
> function.


All we need is for Larry aka "cuhulin" to chime in...!!!

;-D


--
Best
Greg

On Jul 31, 5:31 am, "William Black" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected] ups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jul 30, 2:09 pm, "William Black" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >>news:[email protected] oups.com...
>
> >> > On Jul 30, 5:36 am, "William Black" <[email protected]>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >> >>news:[email protected] groups.com...
>
> >> >> > Ciao Cara! wrote:
> >> >> >>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/ma...=BUIZGRNAJD2M5...
>
> >> >> >> Clothes system gives Italy a touch of class
>
> >> >> >> By Martin Harper
> >> >> >> Last Updated: 12:01am BST 25/07/2007
>
> >> >> >> Mentor for Italy
> >> >> >> Italy Messageboard
>
> >> >> >> The man in front of me had the deepest tan I have seen this summer.
>
> >> >> >> He was wearing an expensive linen jacket over a shocking pink
> >> >> >> shirt,
> >> >> >> which fell open to reveal a hairy chest, gold chains and dangling
> >> >> >> "Superfly" sunglasses.
>
> >> >> >> An equally loud tie was casually knotted about 12 inches below the
> >> >> >> neck and both hands were decked with bracelets and rings.
>
> >> >> > This isnt any indication of smartness or taste but rather herd
> >> >> > mentality and people throwing their money on a bunch of expensive
> >> >> > crap. Ive delt with this juvinile shit in school, I dont care to in
> >> >> > my
> >> >> > adult life.
>
> >> >> So you've never been to Italy then...
>
> >> >> Actually it sounds like you have a contempt for cultures not your own.
>
> >> > This is hardly 'culture', it's just a way for a bunch of assholes to
> >> > boost their ego at the expense of others.
> >> > Culture is art, music, and traditions. This is high school cliques
> >> > taken to the next level.
>
> >> So you are a resident of the United States...
>
> >> Thought so.
>
> > You know, there is more to the United States than Bu$h and rednecks.
> > A whole lot more.
> > And yes, we have the same shit going on here, but it's mostly confined
> > to the schools and
> > some of the elite.
>
> Erm...
>
> What 'shit'?
>

Cliquish behavior and people trying to outdo each other in all
sectors, especially fashion.

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:03:51 -0700, "Mimi" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:42:43 GMT, "William Black"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected] ...
>>>> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:09:00 GMT, "William Black"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>So you are a resident of the United States...
>>>>>
>>>>>Thought so.
>>>>
>>>> I'm having a lot of trouble getting your point. Did you consider the
>>>> original article an insightful cultural analysis?
>>>
>>>No.
>>>
>>>I'm more interested in the origins of the writer than of the article
>>>
>>>Fashion is subjective.
>>>
>>>The original article tells me far more about the cultural origins of the
>>>writer than about fashion in Italy.
>>>
>>>Having travelled extensively in Italy I know damn well that Italians vary
>>>in
>>>their approach to fashion and what will be considered fashionable and
>>>desirable in a city in Southern Italy will be considered gauche and naive
>>>in Milan.
>>>
>>>What is considered 'classic' and suave in Milan may well be considered
>>>vulgar and over dressed in a sophisticated suburb/village in the Romagna
>>
>> This is where you're losing me. I assume the original piece was
>> written by an American. An American writes a piece of trash; several
>> other Americans call it a piece of trash. What is the relevance of
>> their nationality?
>
>The article cited was in an English newspaper. Does someone know the writer
>is an American?

I think I assumed it because it was crossposted to soc.culture.usa or
whatever. In any case, I don't think the nationality is relevant
either to the original article or the responses. The point is, do we
follow bleating behind the flock or not?
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:09:02 +0200, B Vaughan<[email protected]> wrote:


>I think I assumed it because it was crossposted to soc.culture.usa or
>whatever. In any case, I don't think the nationality is relevant
>either to the original article or the responses. The point is, do we
>follow bleating behind the flock or not?

Not if you are any good as a sheep dog.
--

Martin

"William Black" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "aemeijers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "William Black" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected] ps.com...
>>>> On Jul 30, 5:36 am, "William Black" <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>> news:[email protected] oups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Ciao Cara! wrote:
>>>>> >>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/ma...=BUIZGRNAJD2M5...
>>>>>
>>>>> >> Clothes system gives Italy a touch of class
>>>>>
>>>>> >> By Martin Harper
>>>>> >> Last Updated: 12:01am BST 25/07/2007
>>>>>
>>>>> >> Mentor for Italy
>>>>> >> Italy Messageboard
>>>>>
>>>>> >> The man in front of me had the deepest tan I have seen this summer.
>>>>>
>>>>> >> He was wearing an expensive linen jacket over a shocking pink
>>>>> >> shirt,
>>>>> >> which fell open to reveal a hairy chest, gold chains and dangling
>>>>> >> "Superfly" sunglasses.
>>>>>
>>>>> >> An equally loud tie was casually knotted about 12 inches below the
>>>>> >> neck and both hands were decked with bracelets and rings.
>>>>>
>>>>> > This isnt any indication of smartness or taste but rather herd
>>>>> > mentality and people throwing their money on a bunch of expensive
>>>>> > crap. Ive delt with this juvinile shit in school, I dont care to in
>>>>> > my
>>>>> > adult life.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you've never been to Italy then...
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually it sounds like you have a contempt for cultures not your own.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is hardly 'culture', it's just a way for a bunch of assholes to
>>>> boost their ego at the expense of others.
>>>> Culture is art, music, and traditions. This is high school cliques
>>>> taken to the next level.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So you are a resident of the United States...
>>>
>>> Thought so.
>>>
>>>
>> Pot kettle black. You are dissing the US version of culture just as bad
>> as previous posters are dissing this supposed facet of Italian culture.
>
> I'm not 'dissing' anything.
>
> I'm drawing a conclusion based on the available evidence.
>
> If you think I'm being critical in any way I invite you to say where that
> criticism occurs.
>
>> Clothing design should be based on function, durability, and comfort.
>
> So you wear overalls to go shopping?
>
> They're functional, durable, comfortable and even cheap.
>
>
' So you are a resident of the United States...

Thought so.'

Sounds like dissing to me. People from other countries are allowed to call
the residents of US on the stupid suff we do (which is legion, especially
while traveling), but if anybody from this side of pond calls a spade a
spade about European stupidity, we are too stupid to understand how cultured
it is?

And no, I don't wear overalls to shop, but only because I don't happen to
own any. I wear whatever the hell I happen to have on, unless it is too
dirty to get in the car with. But if I happen to be doing chores around the
house and need to run down to the tractor supply or lumberyard, do I waste
an hour getting dressed up first? Out of politeness, I try not to go out in
public when I am TOO sweaty and dirty, without showering first, but that is
about it.

aem sends...

"aemeijers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

> ' So you are a resident of the United States...
>
> Thought so.'
>
> Sounds like dissing to me.

It isn't.

Please read my comments further down the thread

People from other countries are allowed to call
> the residents of US on the stupid suff we do (which is legion, especially
> while traveling), but if anybody from this side of pond calls a spade a
> spade about European stupidity, we are too stupid to understand how
> cultured it is?

Having spent some time in an Irish bar in new York I must beg to differ.

Fortunately the customers and staff couldn't tell a Yorkshire accent from a
Welsh one...


>
> And no, I don't wear overalls to shop, but only because I don't happen to
> own any. I wear whatever the hell I happen to have on, unless it is too
> dirty to get in the car with. But if I happen to be doing chores around
> the house and need to run down to the tractor supply or lumberyard, do I
> waste an hour getting dressed up first? Out of politeness, I try not to go
> out in public when I am TOO sweaty and dirty, without showering first, but
> that is about it.

Why do you think we care?

I mean, I tend to wear a lot of black when in the UK. It goes with just
about anything.

But nobody cares.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.