On 22 Jul, 12:19, "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"'Surly' Jock Surly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >we pay a shitload in airport taxes and get treated like animals,
> >I think thats the problem.
>
> Which country do you live in where airport fees are a tax?
>
> In my country (the one that the airport in the subject is
> located) the fee is a cost for providing the services connected
> with providing the flight that I have chosen to use. Any
> excess goes into the pocket of some fat cat businessman,
> and nowhere near a government.
>
> So, If I don't like the service that this commercial operation
> is giving me for my money, I take my business elsewhere.
>
> tim

the website calls them taxes. BAA pay taxes to the government.
Indeed I am taking the train.
But LCY and STN are also options for going back to Belgium.

"tim....." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>>"'Surly' Jock Surly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>we pay a shitload in airport taxes and get treated like animals,
>>I think thats the problem.
>
> Which country do you live in where airport fees are a tax?
>
> In my country (the one that the airport in the subject is
> located) the fee is a cost for providing the services connected
> with providing the flight that I have chosen to use. Any
> excess goes into the pocket of some fat cat businessman,
> and nowhere near a government.
>
> So, If I don't like the service that this commercial operation
> is giving me for my money, I take my business elsewhere.

Yes, you can use Stansted or Gatwick, for example. That'll teach BAA a
lesson.

"'Surly' Jock McSurly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ps.com...
> On 22 Jul, 12:19, "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >"'Surly' Jock Surly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >we pay a shitload in airport taxes and get treated like animals,
>> >I think thats the problem.
>>
>> Which country do you live in where airport fees are a tax?
>>
>> In my country (the one that the airport in the subject is
>> located) the fee is a cost for providing the services connected
>> with providing the flight that I have chosen to use. Any
>> excess goes into the pocket of some fat cat businessman,
>> and nowhere near a government.
>>
>> So, If I don't like the service that this commercial operation
>> is giving me for my money, I take my business elsewhere.
>>
>> tim
>
> the website calls them taxes.

What website. The airlines perhaps? Calling them taxes
is a fiction that the airlines like to perpetuate because it
passes the blame for them being so high to someone else.
They try and pretend that if HMG didn't collect e.g. 20
pounds (pp) for landing an aircraft at an airport it would be
free, of course HMG does no such thing.

> BAA pay taxes to the government.

On their profits, just like every other coporate concern.
The price charged by a company for goods/services don't
include an element of 'tax', they include an element of profit
which ends up getting taxed.

> Indeed I am taking the train.
> But LCY and STN are also options for going back to Belgium.

Indeed, you have a choice. If you don't like LHR exercise it.

tim

"DVH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>"'Surly' Jock Surly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>>we pay a shitload in airport taxes and get treated like animals,
>>>I think thats the problem.
>>
>> Which country do you live in where airport fees are a tax?
>>
>> In my country (the one that the airport in the subject is
>> located) the fee is a cost for providing the services connected
>> with providing the flight that I have chosen to use. Any
>> excess goes into the pocket of some fat cat businessman,
>> and nowhere near a government.
>>
>> So, If I don't like the service that this commercial operation
>> is giving me for my money, I take my business elsewhere.
>
> Yes, you can use Stansted or Gatwick, for example. That'll teach BAA a
> lesson.

As this is an international group I expect that many can use
AMS, CDG or FRA to transit in instead of LHR.

tim

"Mel Rowing" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...
> On 22 Jul, 10:01, "DVH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Mel Rowing" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected] ups.com...
>>
>> > You get them on all commercial airports which, like any other business
>> > exist to make money.
>>
>> > If leasees may huge rents its because they enjoy even greater
>> > turnover. If they enjoy such vast turnovers then its obvious they are
>> > supported. If they are supported travellers vote for them with thir
>> > wallets.
>>
>> Ah yes, the market as the arbiter of all things and consumption as an end
>> in
>> itself. How deliciously pointless.
>
> Well Yes but not pointless!
>
> The market is the predominant arbiter of much that goes on.
>
> It is the arbiter, for instance, of whether shops, banks, pubs,
> restaurants line your High Street rather than houses as would have
> been the case centuries ago. No doubt the people who use these
> facilities get in your way as you make your lawful passage down that
> High Street.
>
> Airport concourses are merely High Streets that lead to departure
> gates. If nobody used them they wouldn't be there but the price of
> your air ticket would be higher as a result. Airports are designed
> with the typical passenger in mind. The typical passenger is not one
> who wants to use an airport as a bus stop for aeroplanes. He wants
> services and facilities.
>
> Do not major rail stations/interchanges sport similar facilities all
> be it on a smaller scale?
>

Indeed they do, and sometimes they're very useful.

The problem is that commerce is sitting there claiming to deliver me
something I want, and doing it more efficiently than, say, the government.
But the claim is false.

Sure, sometimes I want a book. Sometimes I also want a car. But what I
really want is to be in the city I bought a ticket for. So although Heathrow
offers me bookshops and car dealerships, I'd prefer to be offered them
another time. Why can't commerce deliver on this?

On 22 Jul, 14:11, "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote:
> "'Surly' Jock McSurly" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected] glegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On 22 Jul, 12:19, "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >"'Surly' Jock Surly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >we pay a shitload in airport taxes and get treated like animals,
> >> >I think thats the problem.
>
> >> Which country do you live in where airport fees are a tax?
>
> >> In my country (the one that the airport in the subject is
> >> located) the fee is a cost for providing the services connected
> >> with providing the flight that I have chosen to use. Any
> >> excess goes into the pocket of some fat cat businessman,
> >> and nowhere near a government.
>
> >> So, If I don't like the service that this commercial operation
> >> is giving me for my money, I take my business elsewhere.
>
> >> tim
>
> > the website calls them taxes.
>
> What website. The airlines perhaps? Calling them taxes
> is a fiction that the airlines like to perpetuate because it
> passes the blame for them being so high to someone else.
> They try and pretend that if HMG didn't collect e.g. 20
> pounds (pp) for landing an aircraft at an airport it would be
> free, of course HMG does no such thing.
>

just semantics, its a cost to the passenger for using the airport.
Its a shit airport and you still pay for the privilege.

> > BAA pay taxes to the government.
>
> On their profits, just like every other coporate concern.
> The price charged by a company for goods/services don't
> include an element of 'tax', they include an element of profit
> which ends up getting taxed.
>
> > Indeed I am taking the train.
> > But LCY and STN are also options for going back to Belgium.
>
> Indeed, you have a choice. If you don't like LHR exercise it.
>
> tim

...and whilst exercising, I will complain about it
Who knows, with T5 they might regain some credibility............nah.
Even the top man just did a bunk to join the construction industry.

"'Surly' Jock McSurly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ps.com...
> On 22 Jul, 14:11, "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "'Surly' Jock McSurly" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> messagenews:[email protected] glegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> >> So, If I don't like the service that this commercial operation
>> >> is giving me for my money, I take my business elsewhere.
>>
>> >> tim
>>
>> > the website calls them taxes.
>>
>> What website. The airlines perhaps? Calling them taxes
>> is a fiction that the airlines like to perpetuate because it
>> passes the blame for them being so high to someone else.
>> They try and pretend that if HMG didn't collect e.g. 20
>> pounds (pp) for landing an aircraft at an airport it would be
>> free, of course HMG does no such thing.
>>
>
> just semantics,

Of course its not semantics

> its a cost to the passenger for using the airport.
> Its a shit airport and you still pay for the privilege.

My point is that it is a commercial price not a fee
mandated by Goverment. As such, it is subject to
commercial pressue. If the service is shit, people
will go elsewhere and the price will come down

tim

On 22 Jul, 15:37, "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote:
> "'Surly' Jock McSurly" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected] glegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On 22 Jul, 14:11, "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "'Surly' Jock McSurly" <[email protected]> wrote in
> >> messagenews:[email protected] glegroups.com...
>
> >> >> So, If I don't like the service that this commercial operation
> >> >> is giving me for my money, I take my business elsewhere.
>
> >> >> tim
>
> >> > the website calls them taxes.
>
> >> What website. The airlines perhaps? Calling them taxes
> >> is a fiction that the airlines like to perpetuate because it
> >> passes the blame for them being so high to someone else.
> >> They try and pretend that if HMG didn't collect e.g. 20
> >> pounds (pp) for landing an aircraft at an airport it would be
> >> free, of course HMG does no such thing.
>
> > just semantics,
>
> Of course its not semantics
>
> > its a cost to the passenger for using the airport.
> > Its a shit airport and you still pay for the privilege.
>
> My point is that it is a commercial price not a fee
> mandated by Goverment. As such, it is subject to
> commercial pressue. If the service is shit, people
> will go elsewhere and the price will come down
>
> tim

I agree. Supply and demand. But its still a shit airport

On a tangent, prices from UK to Belgium are in GBP what I normally pay
in Euros.
Except the SN web-shite is currently doing some strange things, like
adding GBP 90 for no apparent reason. Hence the train. VLM is looking
interesting though. And last resort was Ryanair, but Liverpool St. to
Stansted is GBP 15, plus you end up in Charleroi, not Antwerp, so add
GBP 10 for that ticket.

"'Surly' Jock McSurly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ps.com...
> On 22 Jul, 15:37, "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "'Surly' Jock McSurly" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> messagenews:[email protected] glegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 22 Jul, 14:11, "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> "'Surly' Jock McSurly" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> >> messagenews:[email protected] glegroups.com...
>>
>> >> >> So, If I don't like the service that this commercial operation
>> >> >> is giving me for my money, I take my business elsewhere.
>>
>> >> >> tim
>>
>> >> > the website calls them taxes.
>>
>> >> What website. The airlines perhaps? Calling them taxes
>> >> is a fiction that the airlines like to perpetuate because it
>> >> passes the blame for them being so high to someone else.
>> >> They try and pretend that if HMG didn't collect e.g. 20
>> >> pounds (pp) for landing an aircraft at an airport it would be
>> >> free, of course HMG does no such thing.
>>
>> > just semantics,
>>
>> Of course its not semantics
>>
>> > its a cost to the passenger for using the airport.
>> > Its a shit airport and you still pay for the privilege.
>>
>> My point is that it is a commercial price not a fee
>> mandated by Goverment. As such, it is subject to
>> commercial pressue. If the service is shit, people
>> will go elsewhere and the price will come down
>>
>> tim
>
> I agree. Supply and demand. But its still a shit airport
>
> On a tangent, prices from UK to Belgium are in GBP what I normally pay
> in Euros.

That's becauyse it's the kids summer holidays.

You don't think the cheapier airlines are going to sell tickets
for 1 pound in a season when they know that they can full the
plane at 100 pounds a ticket, do you?

tim

On 22 Jul, 15:53, "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote:
> "'Surly' Jock McSurly" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected] glegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On 22 Jul, 15:37, "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "'Surly' Jock McSurly" <[email protected]> wrote in
> >> messagenews:[email protected] glegroups.com...
>
> >> > On 22 Jul, 14:11, "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >> "'Surly' Jock McSurly" <[email protected]> wrote in
> >> >> messagenews:[email protected] glegroups.com...
>
> >> >> >> So, If I don't like the service that this commercial operation
> >> >> >> is giving me for my money, I take my business elsewhere.
>
> >> >> >> tim
>
> >> >> > the website calls them taxes.
>
> >> >> What website. The airlines perhaps? Calling them taxes
> >> >> is a fiction that the airlines like to perpetuate because it
> >> >> passes the blame for them being so high to someone else.
> >> >> They try and pretend that if HMG didn't collect e.g. 20
> >> >> pounds (pp) for landing an aircraft at an airport it would be
> >> >> free, of course HMG does no such thing.
>
> >> > just semantics,
>
> >> Of course its not semantics
>
> >> > its a cost to the passenger for using the airport.
> >> > Its a shit airport and you still pay for the privilege.
>
> >> My point is that it is a commercial price not a fee
> >> mandated by Goverment. As such, it is subject to
> >> commercial pressue. If the service is shit, people
> >> will go elsewhere and the price will come down
>
> >> tim
>
> > I agree. Supply and demand. But its still a shit airport
>
> > On a tangent, prices from UK to Belgium are in GBP what I normally pay
> > in Euros.
>
> That's becauyse it's the kids summer holidays.
>
> You don't think the cheapier airlines are going to sell tickets
> for 1 pound in a season when they know that they can full the
> plane at 100 pounds a ticket, do you?
>
> tim

er....its also summer holidays in Belgium.....

In article <[email protected]>,
"DVH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> The problem is that commerce is sitting there claiming to deliver me
> something I want, and doing it more efficiently than, say, the government.
> But the claim is false.
>
> Sure, sometimes I want a book. Sometimes I also want a car. But what I
> really want is to be in the city I bought a ticket for. So although Heathrow
> offers me bookshops and car dealerships, I'd prefer to be offered them
> another time. Why can't commerce deliver on this?

Probably why you have to be at the airport 3 hours before takeoff...
Gives you a bit of time to shop.

:-)

--
Molesworth

On 22 Jul, 14:31, "DVH" <[email protected]> wrote:

> The problem is that commerce is sitting there claiming to deliver me
> something I want, and doing it more efficiently than, say, the government.
> But the claim is false.
>
> Sure, sometimes I want a book. Sometimes I also want a car. But what I
> really want is to be in the city I bought a ticket for. So although Heathrow
> offers me bookshops and car dealerships, I'd prefer to be offered them
> another time. Why can't commerce deliver on this

But it does!

Whenever and wherever there's a market or even a niche in a larger
market there's a trader there trying to fill it. Just look how
umbrellas appear on the streets when it starts raining.

There is nothing I would prefer more than to turn up at an airport in
my own time, go through the formalities with the minimum of fuss and
climb aboard my own private or charted aircraft. However, I am not in
that income bracket.

Because of this constraint I have to use scheduled aircraft. You dare
not allow time for transport delays. Then there is check in.
Electronic ticketing has not speeded up this process a great deal. I
sometimes wonder what passengers find to put in luggage (we travel
very light well below our allowances) perhaps airlines could
experiment with cutting ticket prices and heavily charging for luggage
by weight. All in all, for one reason or another, you can bank on a
minimum of two hours on an airport. That being the case, there you
have your market.

Beyond that, some of your fellow passengers are in transit. They might
have to wait even longer before their connecting flight is called. One
thing that does annoy me are "sleepers" I am fully aware that on
airports there are people who have travelled in from other time zones.
Why can't they catch up on their sleep whilst they are on the
aircraft? Why must they lie all over the place? I have seen situations
where airports have been busy there is an obvious shortage of seating
yet you will see a body stretched across 4 or 5 seats asleep. It
eludes me as to why airport security doesn't keep these characters
moving.

That's one reason why I get to the boarding gate as quickly as
possible. It's not that I am afraid of missing the aircraft. It's
because there you can sit down in peace relax, read, talk, do whatever
you want to in relative peace up until boarding time approaches.

Another source of annoyance is the "sophisticated" passenger who has
to be called individually after the rest have boarded. In the meantime
everybody else is strapped in their seats unable to move waiting for
the damned aircraft to take off. Why can't the gate be locked after
the last passenger present has passed through it and the luggage of
any absentees off loaded. They being left behind even if they were
close enough to spit onto the aircraft. You'd only have to do it a few
times before word got round!

Travelling by air can be stressful but all to often the source of the
stress is not the airport or its facilities but other users.

"Mel Rowing" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ups.com...
> On 22 Jul, 02:13, "RAK" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "NotABushSupporter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> Like an earlier poster I also get pissed off with the retail outlets
>> cluttering up the airport. In at least one terminal (T3 I think, which is
>> my
>> usual one) it seems impossible to get from immigration to the gates
>> without
>> passing through the zig-zag aisles of a duty-free alcohol and cigarettes
>> outlet, often crowded with shoppers - extra annoying if I am a bit late
>> after the tedious security check..
>
> You get them on all commercial airports which, like any other business
> exist to make money.
>
> If leasees may huge rents its because they enjoy even greater
> turnover. If they enjoy such vast turnovers then its obvious they are
> supported. If they are supported travellers vote for them with thir
> wallets.
>
> The alternative is that travellers pay a commercial price for the use
> of an airport and very expensive facility to provide, operate and
> maintain.
>

Yes, I understand that.
My complaint on that LHR terminal is that I have to walk through that shop
to get to the gate, often with shoppers blocking the aisles.

At every other airport (and that is a lot) I can think of there are open
corridors from Immigration to the gates, with shops off to the side.

"Mel Rowing" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...

>. I
> sometimes wonder what passengers find to put in luggage (we travel
> very light well below our allowances)

Try living somewhere else for three month of the year and you'll find
yourself lugging your full luggage allowance and waiting for extra 50Kg you
sent by courier to arrive...

> One
> thing that does annoy me are "sleepers" I am fully aware that on
> airports there are people who have travelled in from other time zones.
> Why can't they catch up on their sleep whilst they are on the
> aircraft?

Some people can't sleep on aircraft, some people get stuck at airports for
16 or 18 hours, sometimes flights get canceled, sometimes you can't get a
room...

Why must they lie all over the place? I have seen situations
> where airports have been busy there is an obvious shortage of seating
> yet you will see a body stretched across 4 or 5 seats asleep. It
> eludes me as to why airport security doesn't keep these characters
> moving.

I have to say that in all my many transits of Heathrow, over many years,
I've never had to look terribly hard for somewhere to sit down.

Even in the ghastly Terminal 3 shopping area...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 15:37:08 +0100, "tim....."
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"'Surly' Jock McSurly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> its a cost to the passenger for using the airport.
>> Its a shit airport and you still pay for the privilege.
>
>My point is that it is a commercial price not a fee
>mandated by Goverment. As such, it is subject to
>commercial pressue. If the service is shit, people
>will go elsewhere and the price will come down

erm, landing prices at heathrow are controlled by the regulator, not a
commercial fee...

Jim.