France, Anti-Americanism?
Oct 23rd 2002, 9:04 pm
#106
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
Le Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:04:03 GMT, Mike a écrit :
> he did travel abroad, south of Texas, knew how to order Tequila in Spanish.
What a pity that he didn't know the Spanish for 'No thanks, I've had
enough ...'
--
Desmond Coughlan |****#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org
> he did travel abroad, south of Texas, knew how to order Tequila in Spanish.
What a pity that he didn't know the Spanish for 'No thanks, I've had
enough ...'
--
Desmond Coughlan |****#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org
Oct 24th 2002, 12:38 am
#107
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:46:28 +0100, Alan Thomas Harrison
wrote:
>One is that those making them are almost certainly not the octogenarians
>who might expect gratitude. I have no reason to believe that the average
>GI in World War II was radically different from his British or Soviet
>counterpart. British men of my father's generation, in my experience, do
>not demand gratitude for their war service. they perceive themselves as
>doing their duty. So do American, Soviet - and indeed German - men of
>teh same age whom I have seen interviewed on television.
There is a difference, though. The Brits and Russians were defending
their homelands (although not at first for the Brits), while the
Americans were not; there was, in fact, considerable sentiment in
American for staying out of the second one. The American homeland was
nowhere near needing defending.
>Another is that the demands show no understanding of the relative
>contribution made by the various allied nations in the Second World War.
Sometimes the most important contribution is not the one that is the
largest but the one that tips the balance, e.g., the American entry
into WW1, nor is it necessarily the contribution of the most cannon
fodder. Arguably, Hitler would have retained control of Europe and
taken over the British Isles had the Americans not stepped in in
several different ways, e.g., protection of convoys bound for England,
provision of materiel, including machine tools, to England and the
USSR, and, of course, finally, the provision of troops.
>Yet another is that demands for gratitude, however well founded, rarely
>win friends and influence people in any relationship, however close or
>distant.
One should never demand gratitude, but it is easy to slip when people
start saying, "yes, but what have you done for us lately" when you
know there might not have been a "lately" without you.
On the other hand, the day must come when it must all become history;
young Germans still bear the stigma of the Nazi era and white
Americans of the era of Slavery and the Indian Wars.
How long did it take the French and English to bury the hatchet of the
Hundred Years War and then the Napoleonic Wars? And when will the
effects of the Ottoman Conquest finally leave the Balkans to come to
peace?
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
wrote:
>One is that those making them are almost certainly not the octogenarians
>who might expect gratitude. I have no reason to believe that the average
>GI in World War II was radically different from his British or Soviet
>counterpart. British men of my father's generation, in my experience, do
>not demand gratitude for their war service. they perceive themselves as
>doing their duty. So do American, Soviet - and indeed German - men of
>teh same age whom I have seen interviewed on television.
There is a difference, though. The Brits and Russians were defending
their homelands (although not at first for the Brits), while the
Americans were not; there was, in fact, considerable sentiment in
American for staying out of the second one. The American homeland was
nowhere near needing defending.
>Another is that the demands show no understanding of the relative
>contribution made by the various allied nations in the Second World War.
Sometimes the most important contribution is not the one that is the
largest but the one that tips the balance, e.g., the American entry
into WW1, nor is it necessarily the contribution of the most cannon
fodder. Arguably, Hitler would have retained control of Europe and
taken over the British Isles had the Americans not stepped in in
several different ways, e.g., protection of convoys bound for England,
provision of materiel, including machine tools, to England and the
USSR, and, of course, finally, the provision of troops.
>Yet another is that demands for gratitude, however well founded, rarely
>win friends and influence people in any relationship, however close or
>distant.
One should never demand gratitude, but it is easy to slip when people
start saying, "yes, but what have you done for us lately" when you
know there might not have been a "lately" without you.
On the other hand, the day must come when it must all become history;
young Germans still bear the stigma of the Nazi era and white
Americans of the era of Slavery and the Indian Wars.
How long did it take the French and English to bury the hatchet of the
Hundred Years War and then the Napoleonic Wars? And when will the
effects of the Ottoman Conquest finally leave the Balkans to come to
peace?
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
Oct 24th 2002, 12:41 am
#108
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:04:29 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
wrote:
>Le Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:04:03 GMT, Mike a écrit :
>> he did travel abroad, south of Texas, knew how to order Tequila in Spanish.
>What a pity that he didn't know the Spanish for 'No thanks, I've had
>enough ...'
To be fair, it is my understanding that Bush does speak Spanish rather
fluently. Slam him for his real faults; surely there are enough to go
around.
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
wrote:
>Le Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:04:03 GMT, Mike a écrit :
>> he did travel abroad, south of Texas, knew how to order Tequila in Spanish.
>What a pity that he didn't know the Spanish for 'No thanks, I've had
>enough ...'
To be fair, it is my understanding that Bush does speak Spanish rather
fluently. Slam him for his real faults; surely there are enough to go
around.
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
Oct 24th 2002, 7:08 am
#109
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
> Yet another is that demands for gratitude, however well founded, rarely
> win friends and influence people in any relationship, however close or
> distant.
Gratitude, like respect, must be earned, not demanded.
Tim.
> win friends and influence people in any relationship, however close or
> distant.
Gratitude, like respect, must be earned, not demanded.
Tim.
Oct 24th 2002, 9:45 am
#110
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
Hatunen wrote:
> There is a difference, though. The Brits and Russians were defending
> their homelands (although not at first for the Brits), while the
> Americans were not; there was, in fact, considerable sentiment in
> American for staying out of the second one. The American homeland was
> nowhere near needing defending.
I would accept that this was true, in the sense that Hitler was in no
position to launcha direct attack on the USA, beyond using submarines to
attack American shipping, which would itself have been a difficult
enterprise. However, I'm not sure that Roosevelt could have indefinitely
ignored the German declaration of war. (I wonder how many Americans are
aware that it was Germany that declared war on the USA.)
> >Another is that the demands show no understanding of the relative
> >contribution made by the various allied nations in the Second World War.
> Sometimes the most important contribution is not the one that is the
> largest but the one that tips the balance, e.g., the American entry
> into WW1, nor is it necessarily the contribution of the most cannon
> fodder.
Well, yes, David, I think that you've correctly interpreted my coded
language! The USSR certainly contributed more in terms of cannon fodder.
A startling comparison which I heard some years ago was that the USSR
sustained more casualties in the siege of Leningrad than the USA
suffered in all wars from the British-American war of 1812 until Vietnam
inclusively. It also tied up more German divisions than the British and
american forces combined.
> Arguably, Hitler would have retained control of Europe and
> taken over the British Isles had the Americans not stepped in in
> several different ways, e.g., protection of convoys bound for England,
> provision of materiel, including machine tools, to England and the
> USSR, and, of course, finally, the provision of troops.
True, but it is equally arguable that if Britain had not declared war,
he would have cut a deal giving him a free rein in central and eastern
Europe....
> One should never demand gratitude, but it is easy to slip when people
> start saying, "yes, but what have you done for us lately" when you
> know there might not have been a "lately" without you.
But I don't think that I've seen postings of the "what have you done for
us lately?" type in the current thread.
> On the other hand, the day must come when it must all become history;
> young Germans still bear the stigma of the Nazi era and white
> Americans of the era of Slavery and the Indian Wars.
Yes, and British, French, Italian, Dutch, etcetera people have similar
skeletons in their cupboards. There was even a time when Swedes through
their weight about. :-) Mind you, I'm not entirely in favour of
forgetting everything. It became apparent the other day that some of my
final year undergraduates had never heard of Goering or Franco. Even the
one Italian student in the seminar had never heard of Ciano!
Alan Harrison
Alan Harrison
> There is a difference, though. The Brits and Russians were defending
> their homelands (although not at first for the Brits), while the
> Americans were not; there was, in fact, considerable sentiment in
> American for staying out of the second one. The American homeland was
> nowhere near needing defending.
I would accept that this was true, in the sense that Hitler was in no
position to launcha direct attack on the USA, beyond using submarines to
attack American shipping, which would itself have been a difficult
enterprise. However, I'm not sure that Roosevelt could have indefinitely
ignored the German declaration of war. (I wonder how many Americans are
aware that it was Germany that declared war on the USA.)
> >Another is that the demands show no understanding of the relative
> >contribution made by the various allied nations in the Second World War.
> Sometimes the most important contribution is not the one that is the
> largest but the one that tips the balance, e.g., the American entry
> into WW1, nor is it necessarily the contribution of the most cannon
> fodder.
Well, yes, David, I think that you've correctly interpreted my coded
language! The USSR certainly contributed more in terms of cannon fodder.
A startling comparison which I heard some years ago was that the USSR
sustained more casualties in the siege of Leningrad than the USA
suffered in all wars from the British-American war of 1812 until Vietnam
inclusively. It also tied up more German divisions than the British and
american forces combined.
> Arguably, Hitler would have retained control of Europe and
> taken over the British Isles had the Americans not stepped in in
> several different ways, e.g., protection of convoys bound for England,
> provision of materiel, including machine tools, to England and the
> USSR, and, of course, finally, the provision of troops.
True, but it is equally arguable that if Britain had not declared war,
he would have cut a deal giving him a free rein in central and eastern
Europe....
> One should never demand gratitude, but it is easy to slip when people
> start saying, "yes, but what have you done for us lately" when you
> know there might not have been a "lately" without you.
But I don't think that I've seen postings of the "what have you done for
us lately?" type in the current thread.
> On the other hand, the day must come when it must all become history;
> young Germans still bear the stigma of the Nazi era and white
> Americans of the era of Slavery and the Indian Wars.
Yes, and British, French, Italian, Dutch, etcetera people have similar
skeletons in their cupboards. There was even a time when Swedes through
their weight about. :-) Mind you, I'm not entirely in favour of
forgetting everything. It became apparent the other day that some of my
final year undergraduates had never heard of Goering or Franco. Even the
one Italian student in the seminar had never heard of Ciano!
Alan Harrison
Alan Harrison
Oct 24th 2002, 5:31 pm
#111
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
Desmond Coughlan wrote:
>Le Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:04:03 GMT, Mike a écrit :
>> he did travel abroad, south of Texas, knew how to order Tequila in Spanish.
>What a pity that he didn't know the Spanish for 'No thanks, I've had
>enough ...'
I thought that was done non-verbally: just fall down.
PB
>Le Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:04:03 GMT, Mike a écrit :
>> he did travel abroad, south of Texas, knew how to order Tequila in Spanish.
>What a pity that he didn't know the Spanish for 'No thanks, I've had
>enough ...'
I thought that was done non-verbally: just fall down.
PB
Oct 24th 2002, 9:09 pm
#112
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:45:55 +0100, Alan Thomas Harrison
wrote:
>Hatunen wrote:
>> There is a difference, though. The Brits and Russians were defending
>> their homelands (although not at first for the Brits), while the
>> Americans were not; there was, in fact, considerable sentiment in
>> American for staying out of the second one. The American homeland was
>> nowhere near needing defending.
>I would accept that this was true, in the sense that Hitler was in no
>position to launcha direct attack on the USA, beyond using submarines to
>attack American shipping, which would itself have been a difficult
>enterprise.
Once American shipping was used to supply Britain of the USSR the
Germans would have been within their rights to attack that shipping as
a violation of a declared embargo.
>However, I'm not sure that Roosevelt could have indefinitely
>ignored the German declaration of war. (I wonder how many Americans are
>aware that it was Germany that declared war on the USA.)
It's claimed that Hitler did Roosevelt a favor by declaring war, and
Roosevelt may have thought so; he was having a difficult time getting
the American public behind him on the need to fight Hitler. Certainly,
Roosevelt in no way would have considered ignoring the declaration by
Hitler.
[...]
>> Arguably, Hitler would have retained control of Europe and
>> taken over the British Isles had the Americans not stepped in in
>> several different ways, e.g., protection of convoys bound for England,
>> provision of materiel, including machine tools, to England and the
>> USSR, and, of course, finally, the provision of troops.
>True, but it is equally arguable that if Britain had not declared war,
>he would have cut a deal giving him a free rein in central and eastern
>Europe....
Hitler continued to try to cut a deal with Britain even after it
declared war. In the light of history, whether he would have kept that
deal is arguable.
[...]
>> On the other hand, the day must come when it must all become history;
>> young Germans still bear the stigma of the Nazi era and white
>> Americans of the era of Slavery and the Indian Wars.
>Yes, and British, French, Italian, Dutch, etcetera people have similar
>skeletons in their cupboards. There was even a time when Swedes through
>their weight about. :-) Mind you, I'm not entirely in favour of
>forgetting everything. It became apparent the other day that some of my
>final year undergraduates had never heard of Goering or Franco. Even the
>one Italian student in the seminar had never heard of Ciano!
Poor Ciano. Talk about a guy caught between a rock and a hard place.
In 1955 my girlfriend's 12 year old brother asked me who Hitler was.
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
wrote:
>Hatunen wrote:
>> There is a difference, though. The Brits and Russians were defending
>> their homelands (although not at first for the Brits), while the
>> Americans were not; there was, in fact, considerable sentiment in
>> American for staying out of the second one. The American homeland was
>> nowhere near needing defending.
>I would accept that this was true, in the sense that Hitler was in no
>position to launcha direct attack on the USA, beyond using submarines to
>attack American shipping, which would itself have been a difficult
>enterprise.
Once American shipping was used to supply Britain of the USSR the
Germans would have been within their rights to attack that shipping as
a violation of a declared embargo.
>However, I'm not sure that Roosevelt could have indefinitely
>ignored the German declaration of war. (I wonder how many Americans are
>aware that it was Germany that declared war on the USA.)
It's claimed that Hitler did Roosevelt a favor by declaring war, and
Roosevelt may have thought so; he was having a difficult time getting
the American public behind him on the need to fight Hitler. Certainly,
Roosevelt in no way would have considered ignoring the declaration by
Hitler.
[...]
>> Arguably, Hitler would have retained control of Europe and
>> taken over the British Isles had the Americans not stepped in in
>> several different ways, e.g., protection of convoys bound for England,
>> provision of materiel, including machine tools, to England and the
>> USSR, and, of course, finally, the provision of troops.
>True, but it is equally arguable that if Britain had not declared war,
>he would have cut a deal giving him a free rein in central and eastern
>Europe....
Hitler continued to try to cut a deal with Britain even after it
declared war. In the light of history, whether he would have kept that
deal is arguable.
[...]
>> On the other hand, the day must come when it must all become history;
>> young Germans still bear the stigma of the Nazi era and white
>> Americans of the era of Slavery and the Indian Wars.
>Yes, and British, French, Italian, Dutch, etcetera people have similar
>skeletons in their cupboards. There was even a time when Swedes through
>their weight about. :-) Mind you, I'm not entirely in favour of
>forgetting everything. It became apparent the other day that some of my
>final year undergraduates had never heard of Goering or Franco. Even the
>one Italian student in the seminar had never heard of Ciano!
Poor Ciano. Talk about a guy caught between a rock and a hard place.
In 1955 my girlfriend's 12 year old brother asked me who Hitler was.
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
Oct 27th 2002, 4:35 am
#113
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:20:20 -0500, Jim Cate wrote:
>We are considering a trip to France this November or in the March-April
>2003 period. In view of their strong opposition to the US position on
>Iraq, does anyone have any news or current information as to whether US
>tourists are experiencing a less than warm welcome there these days?
I've previously posted about my extremely warm reception this past
June. We were in Paris, Burgundy, and the Loire Valley. Parisians are
busy people and are often more businesslike than effusive, but
certainly generally helpful and polite. But, particularly in rural
regions and smaller cities, the people in Burgundy and the Loire
Valley were very much like Italians I've dealt with in my 3 trips to
Italy: Effusive, sweet, warm, and willing to go out of their way at
times to be helpful. Everyone would have known that we were Americans
from our accents. It wasn't an issue at all.
> In
> view of the fact that military action may begin next year, I'm thinking
> it might be better to go earlier, perhaps in November or early December,
> to avoid being there in the midst of a war.
I don't see any reason why it's safe to assume that it will be more
dangerous to be in France, rather than the U.S. Even without an attack
on Iraq, the U.S. is under continued threat from terrorism, as is
France and most any other country you are likely to visit.
>We (my wife and I) are fairly experienced travelers and have visited the
>same Left Bank neighborhood a number of times, and we have always found
>the French to be courteous and friendly. However, I'm wondering whether
>anyone on the ng has had recent experiences in this regard or can offer
>advice or suggestions as to what the situation may be in the coming
>months.
I imagine you speak some French. I don't think you have anything to
worry about, as far as the French people are concerned. Whether you'd
rather not fly during a war is another question.
Best,
Michael
>We are considering a trip to France this November or in the March-April
>2003 period. In view of their strong opposition to the US position on
>Iraq, does anyone have any news or current information as to whether US
>tourists are experiencing a less than warm welcome there these days?
I've previously posted about my extremely warm reception this past
June. We were in Paris, Burgundy, and the Loire Valley. Parisians are
busy people and are often more businesslike than effusive, but
certainly generally helpful and polite. But, particularly in rural
regions and smaller cities, the people in Burgundy and the Loire
Valley were very much like Italians I've dealt with in my 3 trips to
Italy: Effusive, sweet, warm, and willing to go out of their way at
times to be helpful. Everyone would have known that we were Americans
from our accents. It wasn't an issue at all.
> In
> view of the fact that military action may begin next year, I'm thinking
> it might be better to go earlier, perhaps in November or early December,
> to avoid being there in the midst of a war.
I don't see any reason why it's safe to assume that it will be more
dangerous to be in France, rather than the U.S. Even without an attack
on Iraq, the U.S. is under continued threat from terrorism, as is
France and most any other country you are likely to visit.
>We (my wife and I) are fairly experienced travelers and have visited the
>same Left Bank neighborhood a number of times, and we have always found
>the French to be courteous and friendly. However, I'm wondering whether
>anyone on the ng has had recent experiences in this regard or can offer
>advice or suggestions as to what the situation may be in the coming
>months.
I imagine you speak some French. I don't think you have anything to
worry about, as far as the French people are concerned. Whether you'd
rather not fly during a war is another question.
Best,
Michael
Oct 27th 2002, 4:39 am
#114
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:09:25 +0100, Alan Thomas Harrison
wrote:
>I agree.
>I must also confess that I have some difficulty in understanding the
>concept of "anti-Americanism".
>If I were travelling on the tube from Heathrow to central London and an
>American engaged me in conversation about what a jerk Tony Blair is, my
>immediate instinct would be to think that I had found an interesting
>travel companion with whom to while away an hour's tube ride. If it
>proved that he was an extreme right-winger who actually thought Blair's
>a leftie, I would find urgent business at Hounslow that required me to
>alight and wait for the next train.
>In neither case, however, would I feel that criticism of the British
>government was "anti-British", and I would certainly not feel any kind
>of personal affront at such criticism. Consequently, I find it rather
>hard to understand why some Americans, at least, don't react with
>similar equanimity to criticism of their country's government.
Some of us do, Alan.
I define genuine anti-Americanism as directed against _ordinary_
Americans. By that standard, I doubt I experienced any of it during my
3-week trip to France. In fact, I doubt I've ever experienced any in
France, or any other European country I've visited (e.g. Italy,
Hungary). On occasions when I got lousy treatment in Nice,
anti-outsider feelings could have been a culprit, but French friends
of mine from outside the area also complained of similar treatment.
Best,
Michael
wrote:
>I agree.
>I must also confess that I have some difficulty in understanding the
>concept of "anti-Americanism".
>If I were travelling on the tube from Heathrow to central London and an
>American engaged me in conversation about what a jerk Tony Blair is, my
>immediate instinct would be to think that I had found an interesting
>travel companion with whom to while away an hour's tube ride. If it
>proved that he was an extreme right-winger who actually thought Blair's
>a leftie, I would find urgent business at Hounslow that required me to
>alight and wait for the next train.
>In neither case, however, would I feel that criticism of the British
>government was "anti-British", and I would certainly not feel any kind
>of personal affront at such criticism. Consequently, I find it rather
>hard to understand why some Americans, at least, don't react with
>similar equanimity to criticism of their country's government.
Some of us do, Alan.
I define genuine anti-Americanism as directed against _ordinary_
Americans. By that standard, I doubt I experienced any of it during my
3-week trip to France. In fact, I doubt I've ever experienced any in
France, or any other European country I've visited (e.g. Italy,
Hungary). On occasions when I got lousy treatment in Nice,
anti-outsider feelings could have been a culprit, but French friends
of mine from outside the area also complained of similar treatment.
Best,
Michael
Nov 2nd 2002, 2:13 am
#115
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 03:34:51 +0200, "Mxsmanic"
wrote:
>"Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" a écrit dans le
>message de news: [email protected]...
>> A good share of the world's population today was
>> born long after WW2 ended - why should they be
>> "grateful" for something that happened years and
>> years before the were born?
>For the same reason that every non-Jew in the world must feel eternally
>guilty and responsible for the Holocaust: there's gold in that there
>history.
I naively thought that you'd say something reasonable, like that they
could be thankful that they were able to live under a pretty
benevolent system, rather than a Fascist dictatorship.
You are really ridiculously defensive toward Jews. Unless there were
Axis war criminals in your family's past or you yourself are
prejudiced against Jews, what reason could you possibly have to get
your back up and make such a total bullshit complaint that Jews are
victimizing _you_ because of something that was done by others to
_them_?
Michael
P.S. This is a long and off-topic thread. Don't be shocked if I don't
check your response and don't respond further. If I don't, don't take
it personally. And please don't email me about this nonsense.
wrote:
>"Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" a écrit dans le
>message de news: [email protected]...
>> A good share of the world's population today was
>> born long after WW2 ended - why should they be
>> "grateful" for something that happened years and
>> years before the were born?
>For the same reason that every non-Jew in the world must feel eternally
>guilty and responsible for the Holocaust: there's gold in that there
>history.
I naively thought that you'd say something reasonable, like that they
could be thankful that they were able to live under a pretty
benevolent system, rather than a Fascist dictatorship.
You are really ridiculously defensive toward Jews. Unless there were
Axis war criminals in your family's past or you yourself are
prejudiced against Jews, what reason could you possibly have to get
your back up and make such a total bullshit complaint that Jews are
victimizing _you_ because of something that was done by others to
_them_?
Michael
P.S. This is a long and off-topic thread. Don't be shocked if I don't
check your response and don't respond further. If I don't, don't take
it personally. And please don't email me about this nonsense.
Dec 13th 2002, 8:42 pm
#116
Just Joined
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: Surrey UK and Marin County California
Posts: 2
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
Originally posted by Jim Cate
We are considering a trip to France this November or in the March-April
2003 period. In view of their strong opposition to the US position on
Iraq, does anyone have any news or current information as to whether US
tourists are experiencing a less than warm welcome there these days? In
view of the fact that military action may begin next year, I'm thinking
it might be better to go earlier, perhaps in November or early December,
to avoid being there in the midst of a war.
We (my wife and I) are fairly experienced travelers and have visited the
same Left Bank neighborhood a number of times, and we have always found
the French to be courteous and friendly. However, I'm wondering whether
anyone on the ng has had recent experiences in this regard or can offer
advice or suggestions as to what the situation may be in the coming
months.
Thanks,
Jim Cate
We are considering a trip to France this November or in the March-April
2003 period. In view of their strong opposition to the US position on
Iraq, does anyone have any news or current information as to whether US
tourists are experiencing a less than warm welcome there these days? In
view of the fact that military action may begin next year, I'm thinking
it might be better to go earlier, perhaps in November or early December,
to avoid being there in the midst of a war.
We (my wife and I) are fairly experienced travelers and have visited the
same Left Bank neighborhood a number of times, and we have always found
the French to be courteous and friendly. However, I'm wondering whether
anyone on the ng has had recent experiences in this regard or can offer
advice or suggestions as to what the situation may be in the coming
months.
Thanks,
Jim Cate
Dec 13th 2002, 8:46 pm
#117
Just Joined
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: Surrey UK and Marin County California
Posts: 2
FRANCE -ANTI-AMERICANISM Jim Cate
Hello,
I am English (living in California) but am seriously considering
moving to France maybe Normandy area.
I too am concerned about the world situation; however, it seems
there is not much to choose from - except to say USA is probably
the most "unliked" along with UK.
I am also very concerned about environmental issues; nuclear
energy, water, etc. There again, everywhere has these problems.
My e mail is [email protected]. Would love to hear
from you and can discuss more.
all the best,
.... Gillian ......
I am English (living in California) but am seriously considering
moving to France maybe Normandy area.
I too am concerned about the world situation; however, it seems
there is not much to choose from - except to say USA is probably
the most "unliked" along with UK.
I am also very concerned about environmental issues; nuclear
energy, water, etc. There again, everywhere has these problems.
My e mail is [email protected]. Would love to hear
from you and can discuss more.
all the best,
.... Gillian ......
Dec 14th 2002, 11:20 pm
#118
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
My family and I were in Paris April 2002 and encountered nothing but very
hospitible people. Now, I don't know if they knew we were American, but
they knew my French was poor.
9/11 or not, I was impressed with how helpful Parisians were to us when we
needed guidance.
hospitible people. Now, I don't know if they knew we were American, but
they knew my French was poor.
9/11 or not, I was impressed with how helpful Parisians were to us when we
needed guidance.
Dec 21st 2002, 10:01 pm
#119
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
>My family and I were in Paris April 2002 and encountered nothing but very
>hospitible people. Now, I don't know if they knew we were American, but
>they knew my French was poor.
>9/11 or not, I was impressed with how helpful Parisians were to us when we
>needed guidance.
My brother was just in Paris last November, and he said the Parisian people he
met were incredibly friendly and helpful. He *loved* Paris so much on his first
trip, that he is seriously considering a second trip there in a few months and
would like for me to join him this time.
I had a similar experience in London last spring. The Brits I met were
exceedingly helpful and gracious. Naturally everyone, including myself, was
concerned about the state of the world at the moment, but I did not encounter a
single hostile person.
I think that the golden rule applies to foreign travel -- be respectful of
those you meet and they will happily point you in the right direction or give
you tips. I found that showing genuine appreciation for the history and culture
went a long way. It may be common sense, but apparently there enough rude
American tourists out there to give us all a bad reputation.
If you are thinking about a trip but are worried about anti-American sentiment,
I would definitely say to put your fears aside and just go!
JAGutmaker
>hospitible people. Now, I don't know if they knew we were American, but
>they knew my French was poor.
>9/11 or not, I was impressed with how helpful Parisians were to us when we
>needed guidance.
My brother was just in Paris last November, and he said the Parisian people he
met were incredibly friendly and helpful. He *loved* Paris so much on his first
trip, that he is seriously considering a second trip there in a few months and
would like for me to join him this time.
I had a similar experience in London last spring. The Brits I met were
exceedingly helpful and gracious. Naturally everyone, including myself, was
concerned about the state of the world at the moment, but I did not encounter a
single hostile person.
I think that the golden rule applies to foreign travel -- be respectful of
those you meet and they will happily point you in the right direction or give
you tips. I found that showing genuine appreciation for the history and culture
went a long way. It may be common sense, but apparently there enough rude
American tourists out there to give us all a bad reputation.
If you are thinking about a trip but are worried about anti-American sentiment,
I would definitely say to put your fears aside and just go!
JAGutmaker
Dec 21st 2002, 11:43 pm
#120
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
Respect...it is all about Respect...maybe we will be more respected in
France the day that we show our Respect for them as visitors in their
Country.
This is coming from someone that traveled France and found some of the
locals not very friendly towards americans. Think about it ...Think about
the way most americans have traveled overseas and their attitudes..and you
might find the reasoning behind all this.. I feel that in not a distant
future things Will be different.
Roberto.
"JAGUTMAKER" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >My family and I were in Paris April 2002 and encountered nothing but
very
> >hospitible people. Now, I don't know if they knew we were American, but
> >they knew my French was poor.
> >
> >9/11 or not, I was impressed with how helpful Parisians were to us when
we
> >needed guidance.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> My brother was just in Paris last November, and he said the Parisian
people he
> met were incredibly friendly and helpful. He *loved* Paris so much on his
first
> trip, that he is seriously considering a second trip there in a few months
and
> would like for me to join him this time.
> I had a similar experience in London last spring. The Brits I met were
> exceedingly helpful and gracious. Naturally everyone, including myself,
was
> concerned about the state of the world at the moment, but I did not
encounter a
> single hostile person.
> I think that the golden rule applies to foreign travel -- be respectful of
> those you meet and they will happily point you in the right direction or
give
> you tips. I found that showing genuine appreciation for the history and
culture
> went a long way. It may be common sense, but apparently there enough rude
> American tourists out there to give us all a bad reputation.
> If you are thinking about a trip but are worried about anti-American
sentiment,
> I would definitely say to put your fears aside and just go!
> JAGutmaker
France the day that we show our Respect for them as visitors in their
Country.
This is coming from someone that traveled France and found some of the
locals not very friendly towards americans. Think about it ...Think about
the way most americans have traveled overseas and their attitudes..and you
might find the reasoning behind all this.. I feel that in not a distant
future things Will be different.
Roberto.
"JAGUTMAKER" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >My family and I were in Paris April 2002 and encountered nothing but
very
> >hospitible people. Now, I don't know if they knew we were American, but
> >they knew my French was poor.
> >
> >9/11 or not, I was impressed with how helpful Parisians were to us when
we
> >needed guidance.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> My brother was just in Paris last November, and he said the Parisian
people he
> met were incredibly friendly and helpful. He *loved* Paris so much on his
first
> trip, that he is seriously considering a second trip there in a few months
and
> would like for me to join him this time.
> I had a similar experience in London last spring. The Brits I met were
> exceedingly helpful and gracious. Naturally everyone, including myself,
was
> concerned about the state of the world at the moment, but I did not
encounter a
> single hostile person.
> I think that the golden rule applies to foreign travel -- be respectful of
> those you meet and they will happily point you in the right direction or
give
> you tips. I found that showing genuine appreciation for the history and
culture
> went a long way. It may be common sense, but apparently there enough rude
> American tourists out there to give us all a bad reputation.
> If you are thinking about a trip but are worried about anti-American
sentiment,
> I would definitely say to put your fears aside and just go!
> JAGutmaker
