Desmond Coughlan

Le Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:24:21 -0700, Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque) a écrit :

    >> > And for France to "throw stones" in light ot its history
    >> > (repressive monarchy to repressive revolutionists to feeble and corrupt
    >> > democracy to cruel colonialists, to collaberationists) is ironic.

    >> Yes, yes, yes ... but the important thing is that we _learn_ from our
    >> mistakes. Take elections, for example ... we in France tend to elect
    >> our presidents via universal direct suffrage. Whilst you in the United
    >> States ... why, do tell us about how your Supreme Court 'handles' elections,
    >> I haven't had a giggle for a while, now ..........

    > Yeah, but that ceased to be funny when 9/11 happened,
    > leaving a cretin in charge of an angry nation wanting
    > "revenge".

Now, now, Evelyn ... he _did_ get an MBA and flew fighter jets ... ;-)

--
Desmond Coughlan |****#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org

dada

Dear Alan, you are fantastic!
as well in Italy we have Berlusconi and I really would be pleased to find someone on a tube ride in London who tells me how it is posible that ina democratic country a prime minister can also be the owner of all the media system of the country. I wouldn't find that person anti-Italy.

Although I would perfectly understand.

Ciao.

I agree.

I must also confess that I have some difficulty in understanding the
concept of "anti-Americanism".

If I were travelling on the tube from Heathrow to central London and an
American engaged me in conversation about what a jerk Tony Blair is, my
immediate instinct would be to think that I had found an interesting
travel companion with whom to while away an hour's tube ride. If it
proved that he was an extreme right-winger who actually thought Blair's
a leftie, I would find urgent business at Hounslow that required me to
alight and wait for the next train.

In neither case, however, would I feel that criticism of the British
government was "anti-British", and I would certainly not feel any kind
of personal affront at such criticism. Consequently, I find it rather
hard to understand why some Americans, at least, don't react with
similar equanimity to criticism of their country's government.

Alan Harrison
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

dada

Dear Alan, you are fantastic!
as well in Italy we have Berlusconi and I really would be pleased to find someone on a tube ride in London who tells me how it is posible that ina democratic country a prime minister can also be the owner of all the media system of the country. I wouldn't find that person anti-Italy.

Although I would perfectly understand.

Ciao.

I agree.

I must also confess that I have some difficulty in understanding the
concept of "anti-Americanism".

If I were travelling on the tube from Heathrow to central London and an
American engaged me in conversation about what a jerk Tony Blair is, my
immediate instinct would be to think that I had found an interesting
travel companion with whom to while away an hour's tube ride. If it
proved that he was an extreme right-winger who actually thought Blair's
a leftie, I would find urgent business at Hounslow that required me to
alight and wait for the next train.

In neither case, however, would I feel that criticism of the British
government was "anti-British", and I would certainly not feel any kind
of personal affront at such criticism. Consequently, I find it rather
hard to understand why some Americans, at least, don't react with
similar equanimity to criticism of their country's government.

Alan Harrison
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Gordon Forbess

On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:16:41 +0100, Alan Thomas Harrison
wrote:

(snip)

    >The thread itself is perfectly legitimate.

Wrong. The OP is a troll. The topic is a repetitive troll. Whether
you are streaking to the bait from the left or the right is
unimportant. You are still a tuna with a hook in your mouth.
Fortunately it's "catch and release" so you are free to be reeled in
again next week.

Gordon

Alan Thomas Harrison

Desmond Coughlan wrote:

    > Yeah, but at least our 'Germans' are 3000 miles away ... you have them
    > right on your doorstep ... :-(

Not mine, mate! I'm one of the "King's men", albeit a republican one,
rather than an american. :-)

Alan Harrison

Desmond Coughlan

Le Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:17:39 GMT, Gordon Forbess a écrit :

    >>The thread itself is perfectly legitimate.

    > Wrong. The OP is a troll. The topic is a repetitive troll. Whether
    > you are streaking to the bait from the left or the right is
    > unimportant. You are still a tuna with a hook in your mouth.
    > Fortunately it's "catch and release" so you are free to be reeled in
    > again next week.

Aren't killfiles wonderful things ..?

--
Desmond Coughlan |****#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org

Danielle

We just returned from France (con) and England (pro, as far as the
governement is concerned anyway), and in neither country did the subject
even come up: we did spend a lot of our time with local folks.

Danielle
"Jim Cate" wrote in message
news:0-
B6DECE5A37C8F31.C2E1B10EC7C90B98.81D2F2A3BEC2518D@ lp.airnews.net...
    > We are considering a trip to France this November or in the March-April
    > 2003 period. In view of their strong opposition to the US position on
    > Iraq, does anyone have any news or current information as to whether US
    > tourists are experiencing a less than warm welcome there these days? In
    > view of the fact that military action may begin next year, I'm thinking
    > it might be better to go earlier, perhaps in November or early December,
    > to avoid being there in the midst of a war.
    > We (my wife and I) are fairly experienced travelers and have visited the
    > same Left Bank neighborhood a number of times, and we have always found
    > the French to be courteous and friendly. However, I'm wondering whether
    > anyone on the ng has had recent experiences in this regard or can offer
    > advice or suggestions as to what the situation may be in the coming
    > months.
    > Thanks,
    > Jim Cate

Desmond Coughlan

Le Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:52:59 GMT, Danielle a écrit :

    > We just returned from France (con) and England (pro, as far as the
    > governement is concerned anyway), and in neither country did the subject
    > even come up: we did spend a lot of our time with local folks.

Indeed, I had unsubscribed from this group for a while, and only came back
on a few days ago, so didn't really see the original post, nor the initial
follows-up that were made.

There is, it is true, a fair amount of 'generic' anti-Americanism in Europe,
and in France in particular. However, most people direct these feelings
at Bush, or at the United States' foreign policy in general. Americans
who come to France will in general be considered on their own merits, just
as any other nationality of tourist would be. You find 'assholes' (sic)
everywhere, and France is no exception. However, come here, respect the
laws, and the human dignity of the people you meet, and I guarantee you
that _no tourist_ need fear for his personal safety, irrespective of where
he comes from.

--
Desmond Coughlan |****#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org

Padraig Breathnach

Desmond Coughlan wrote:

    >There is, it is true, a fair amount of 'generic' anti-Americanism in Europe,
    >and in France in particular. However, most people direct these feelings
    >at Bush, or at the United States' foreign policy in general.
It would be convenient if we had separate terms for being against all
Americans and for being against American foreign policy. But we don't,
so we will have to keep on explaining the difference.

The we have those Americans who think socialism is an offence against
God's plan. They are incapable of accepting that opposition to
American foreign policy is a legitimate position for anybody to take.
It's a waste of time explaining anything to them. Most of them don't
even understand how to use the "shift" key.

    >Americans
    >who come to France will in general be considered on their own merits, just
    >as any other nationality of tourist would be. You find 'assholes' (sic)
    >everywhere, and France is no exception. However, come here, respect the
    >laws, and the human dignity of the people you meet, and I guarantee you
    >that _no tourist_ need fear for his personal safety, irrespective of where
    >he comes from.

Even Gypsies?

You missed some stuff here a few weeks ago.

PB

Desmond Coughlan

Le Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:23:46 GMT, Padraig Breathnach a écrit :

{ snip }

    >>Americans
    >>who come to France will in general be considered on their own merits, just
    >>as any other nationality of tourist would be. You find 'assholes' (sic)
    >>everywhere, and France is no exception. However, come here, respect the
    >>laws, and the human dignity of the people you meet, and I guarantee you
    >>that _no tourist_ need fear for his personal safety, irrespective of where
    >>he comes from.

    > Even Gypsies?

No, they're just skum.

;-) You missed some stuff here a few weeks ago.

Ah ? What were the threads, and I shall check out google ..?

--
Desmond Coughlan |****#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org

Desmond Coughlan

Le Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:30:42 -0700, Bob Vandiver a écrit :
{ snip }

    >> > Le plus excellent d' touché, monsieur!
    >> >
    >> > (who wonders just how mangled his Français was).

    >> You could try, 'ma foi, tu l'as enculé, celui-là ...' ;-)

    > D'accord!

Erm ... I was speaking figuratively ...



--
Desmond Coughlan |****#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org

Alan Harrison

"Gordon Forbess" wrote in message
news:0m58ruossrfukda3dq3u4vb1-
[email protected]...
    > On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:16:41 +0100, Alan Thomas Harrison
    > wrote:
    > (snip)
    > >The thread itself is perfectly legitimate.
    > Wrong. The OP is a troll. The topic is a repetitive troll. Whether
    > you are streaking to the bait from the left or the right is
    > unimportant. You are still a tuna with a hook in your mouth.
    > Fortunately it's "catch and release" so you are free to be reeled in
    > again next week.

You may be right, Gordon, in which case you've spotted something which I
hadn't. But do you need to be so aggressive about it? Elsewhere in today's
postings, you may see that I've spotted another thread which I believe to be
a troll. I've managed to alert other members without ruderies. Can't you do
the same?

Alan Harrison

Evelyn Vogt Gamble

Tim Challenger wrote:
    > > It is the extreme left, anti-American contingent
    > I don't think you have to be extreme left to be anti-American.
    > Just non-American.

Not even that! (I was born in America, have lived here all
my life, and my politics used to be considered
"conservative" - if refusing to recognize my country's
faults is being "anti-American", then so am I!)

John

    > > I am amazed at the extreme socialist agenda being promoted here. I came
to
    > > this NG to research travel to europe in the spring but instead have to
read
    > > mindless unsubstantiated political propaganda. Go figure.
    > > Maybe if i go the the soc.politics.europe NG i can get some info on
travel
    > > in europe.
    > First, if someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to
    > read certain threads in this newsgroup, I'd recommend a call to law
    > enforcement for assistance.

WOW thats one spiffy observation.... I hit 911 and they came a running to
get that rougue weapon from my sweating temple. Obviously (or maybe not so
obvious) i came to this NG to research a future trip to Europe but it seems
that there is quite a bit of anti-Americanism. I can get my daily dose of
anti-Americanism when I read the New York Times or the Washington Post. I
sorta thought that a NG with France in its thread would discuss Paris or
cafes or the countryside or wine. Who would of thought.........

    > Second, though perhaps you haven't noticed it, this newsgroup (and
    > Usenet in general, for the most part) is essentially 'socialist';
    > people give what they can, and take away what they need. People
    > who post here aren't selling their information, or even trading it,
    > providing from each according to his abilities, and to each
    > according to his needs, so to speak.

I guess i acquiesce to your point that Usenet is mildly socialist in a very
general sense but what does any of this dodo about America have anything to
do with travel in Europe. I must be off base to expect rec.travel.europe to
discuss travel in Europe...... Go Figure lol

Remove *nospam* to reply

John

    > > I am amazed at the extreme socialist agenda being promoted here.
    > Nonsense! I am an "extreme socialist", and have no hesitation in telling
    > you that the overwhelming majority of people on this NG are not.
    > Scepticism about President Bush's agenda is widespread across the
    > political spectrum in Europe. Indeed this thread has wandered off-topic
    > largely because of the lack of enthusiasm for his policies on the part
    > of a right-wing French government.

it is one thing to wander off topic it is another to rant and rave totally
off topic....

    > > I came to
    > > this NG to research travel to europe in the spring but instead have to
read
    > > mindless unsubstantiated political propaganda.
    > Again, my impression is that the wandering off-topic in this thread is
    > largely the consequence of American members (and some people who rarely
    > post on-topic) bringing in discussion of President Bush's competence,
    > legitimacy, and so.

I read the entire thread over the last couple of days and what I found was a
serious and conscience inquiry about how Americans would be treated by
everyday French into a asinine comparision between Bush and Hitler.... all
in 6 posts and from there the discussion sorta forgot the original premise
and became an all out vindictive attack on the US in general and Bush in
particular.

    > The thread itself is perfectly legitimate. The original poster wanted to
    > know if he would experience "anti-American" sentiment in France because
    > of opposition to US government policy. The answer is that he will not,
    > because people in Europe generally do not blame ordinary Americans for
    > the policies of Mr Bush and his colleagues. Indeed, "extreme socialists"
    > like me are the most likely to distinguish between the American working
    > class and the American ruling class.

It seems that nobody catches the concept here that the original poster
wanted to know if he would experience "anti-American" sentiment in France
because of opposition to US government policy. I don't think he wanted to
here what every European American hater thinks of the US, President Bush,
elections, congress, coke, McDonalds, Nike or anything else specifically
American. I think Jim Cate just wanted to know he could travel about freely
without undue or unwelcomed hassle....... sorta the opposite of what he got
in this NG.

    > One thing, John, which is particularly likely to stir "anti-American"
    > feeling is a strident demand for gratitude for American action in the
    > European theatre in the Second World War. (Incidentally, similar British
    > demands might well cause anti-British feeling in France and elsewhere.)
    > Unwelcome as it may be to Americans, the undoubted contribution made by
    > American troops in the latter part of the war is overshadowed in
    > European minds by their country's tardy entrance - and then only when
    > Japan attacked and Germany declared war on the United States. "We saved
    > your asses and you should be grateful" is likely to lead to a suggestion
    > that greater asinine salvation would have been achieved if the USA had
    > declared war on Germany with Britain and France in 1939.

Personally I dont give a flying one what europe and europeans think of the
US. The simple fact that in the last century we saved your asses not once,
not twice, but three times from yourselves (twice from Germany, once from
the USSR) and your gratitude is "hey your late". You obviously could not
fight your own wars (at least to fight and win) so as what is becoming a
habit we come, defeat your enemy, give you a bunch of money to rebuild your
countrys and then get spit on in the face. Isn't that the European way....
nothing is ever good enough.... no sacrifice great enough.....