France, Anti-Americanism?
Oct 22nd 2002, 12:01 am
#91
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
that was cute
"Alan Thomas Harrison" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
k...
> Desmond Coughlan wrote:
> >
> > I personally believe that we French should have allowed you to fight off
the
> > King's men on your own. But then all you Yanks would be serving the UK,
> > speaking with English accents, and their all round good natured
collaborator
> > servants.
> Now, now, Desmond... If it hadn't been for the Yanks, you would be run
> by Germans. Instead off de Gaullle, you might have had somebody with a
> German name, say, Herr Eisenhauer. Your army might have been led by
> Generalfeldmarschall Schwarzkopf. Your foreign office might have been
> run by Reichsminister Kissinger. Your present government might include
> Herr Fleischer and Herr Rumsfeld. Your not very vigorous opposition
> might be led by Herr Daschle....
> How terrible it must be to live in a country governed by Germans!
> Alan Harrison
"Alan Thomas Harrison" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
k...
> Desmond Coughlan wrote:
> >
> > I personally believe that we French should have allowed you to fight off
the
> > King's men on your own. But then all you Yanks would be serving the UK,
> > speaking with English accents, and their all round good natured
collaborator
> > servants.
> Now, now, Desmond... If it hadn't been for the Yanks, you would be run
> by Germans. Instead off de Gaullle, you might have had somebody with a
> German name, say, Herr Eisenhauer. Your army might have been led by
> Generalfeldmarschall Schwarzkopf. Your foreign office might have been
> run by Reichsminister Kissinger. Your present government might include
> Herr Fleischer and Herr Rumsfeld. Your not very vigorous opposition
> might be led by Herr Daschle....
> How terrible it must be to live in a country governed by Germans!
> Alan Harrison
Oct 22nd 2002, 1:07 am
#92
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
John wrote:
> WOW thats one spiffy observation.... I hit 911 and they came a running to
> get that rougue weapon from my sweating temple. Obviously (or maybe not so
> obvious) i came to this NG to research a future trip to Europe but it seems
> that there is quite a bit of anti-Americanism. I can get my daily dose of
> anti-Americanism when I read the New York Times or the Washington Post.
If you call the fawning boosterism in those papers Anti-Americanism, you're
off the edge of the political scale I think.
As for its prevalence in this forum, I think to some degree there are people
who just can't get enough of USA-bashing. But also it's a simple fact that
this is a global forum and the views here reflect the views of people out
there. If there's a lot of anti-Americanism in these international forums,
to some degree it's because the actions and words coming from Washington are
failing to win over the hearts and minds of the global public.
You may or may not care what other people think, but if you don't, it's easy
to ignore. If you do care, then what you see here should be poignant for
you.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world:
http://travel.u.nu
New mini photo-feature: Life in DC:
http://travel.u.nu/dc/
> WOW thats one spiffy observation.... I hit 911 and they came a running to
> get that rougue weapon from my sweating temple. Obviously (or maybe not so
> obvious) i came to this NG to research a future trip to Europe but it seems
> that there is quite a bit of anti-Americanism. I can get my daily dose of
> anti-Americanism when I read the New York Times or the Washington Post.
If you call the fawning boosterism in those papers Anti-Americanism, you're
off the edge of the political scale I think.
As for its prevalence in this forum, I think to some degree there are people
who just can't get enough of USA-bashing. But also it's a simple fact that
this is a global forum and the views here reflect the views of people out
there. If there's a lot of anti-Americanism in these international forums,
to some degree it's because the actions and words coming from Washington are
failing to win over the hearts and minds of the global public.
You may or may not care what other people think, but if you don't, it's easy
to ignore. If you do care, then what you see here should be poignant for
you.
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world:
http://travel.u.nu
New mini photo-feature: Life in DC:
http://travel.u.nu/dc/
Oct 22nd 2002, 1:34 am
#93
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
"Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" a écrit dans le
message de news: [email protected]...
> A good share of the world's population today was
> born long after WW2 ended - why should they be
> "grateful" for something that happened years and
> years before the were born?
For the same reason that every non-Jew in the world must feel eternally
guilty and responsible for the Holocaust: there's gold in that there
history.
message de news: [email protected]...
> A good share of the world's population today was
> born long after WW2 ended - why should they be
> "grateful" for something that happened years and
> years before the were born?
For the same reason that every non-Jew in the world must feel eternally
guilty and responsible for the Holocaust: there's gold in that there
history.
Oct 22nd 2002, 1:45 am
#94
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
"John" skrev i meddelandet
news:[email protected]
m...
> WOW thats one spiffy observation.... I hit 911 and they came a running to
> get that rougue weapon from my sweating temple. Obviously (or maybe not so
> obvious) i came to this NG to research a future trip to Europe but it
seems
> that there is quite a bit of anti-Americanism.
A:Well threads are sometimes running their own ways and no-one forced you
inside here.
B: Are you aware of that many or most of the participants in this thread are
your fellow Americans and Bush-Hitler seem to origin from them (reread the
thread)
C: I can assure you there aren't much of anti-American opinions in Europe
today and sorry to disappoint you but America isn't so much in the main
focus for the average European people. The Iraq conflict is in the news but
not the big headlines and most people in the streets have a vague if any
opinion.
D: Please come on with your questions about travelling, more on-topic and
less off is the best answer if you don't like the running away political
threads.
E.P
news:[email protected]
m...
> WOW thats one spiffy observation.... I hit 911 and they came a running to
> get that rougue weapon from my sweating temple. Obviously (or maybe not so
> obvious) i came to this NG to research a future trip to Europe but it
seems
> that there is quite a bit of anti-Americanism.
A:Well threads are sometimes running their own ways and no-one forced you
inside here.
B: Are you aware of that many or most of the participants in this thread are
your fellow Americans and Bush-Hitler seem to origin from them (reread the
thread)
C: I can assure you there aren't much of anti-American opinions in Europe
today and sorry to disappoint you but America isn't so much in the main
focus for the average European people. The Iraq conflict is in the news but
not the big headlines and most people in the streets have a vague if any
opinion.
D: Please come on with your questions about travelling, more on-topic and
less off is the best answer if you don't like the running away political
threads.
E.P
Oct 22nd 2002, 2:41 am
#95
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:19:48 +0000 (UTC), "Alan Harrison"
wrote:
>> Wrong. The OP is a troll. The topic is a repetitive troll. Whether
>> you are streaking to the bait from the left or the right is
>> unimportant. You are still a tuna with a hook in your mouth.
>> Fortunately it's "catch and release" so you are free to be reeled in
>> again next week.
>You may be right, Gordon, in which case you've spotted something which I
>hadn't. But do you need to be so aggressive about it? Elsewhere in today's
>postings, you may see that I've spotted another thread which I believe to be
>a troll. I've managed to alert other members without ruderies. Can't you do
>the same?
Alan - don't take the fish analogy personally.. *all* of us who
respond to trolls beyond saying "troll alert" are in the same school.
A couple of r.t.e regulars pegged this guy on day one, despite his
carefully worded "question" and a supporting follow-up. I chose to
look a bit further with an author search on Google, which was quite
telling.
Gordon
wrote:
>> Wrong. The OP is a troll. The topic is a repetitive troll. Whether
>> you are streaking to the bait from the left or the right is
>> unimportant. You are still a tuna with a hook in your mouth.
>> Fortunately it's "catch and release" so you are free to be reeled in
>> again next week.
>You may be right, Gordon, in which case you've spotted something which I
>hadn't. But do you need to be so aggressive about it? Elsewhere in today's
>postings, you may see that I've spotted another thread which I believe to be
>a troll. I've managed to alert other members without ruderies. Can't you do
>the same?
Alan - don't take the fish analogy personally.. *all* of us who
respond to trolls beyond saying "troll alert" are in the same school.
A couple of r.t.e regulars pegged this guy on day one, despite his
carefully worded "question" and a supporting follow-up. I chose to
look a bit further with an author search on Google, which was quite
telling.
Gordon
Oct 22nd 2002, 4:19 am
#96
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
Mark Moore wrote:
>>Yep, they will be just as rude to American tourists as usual.
>I just have to say something here. My wife and I were in Paris last
>December for about 10 days. It was our first trip there.
>Every single day, we were the recipients of at least one unsolicited
>kindness from a Parisian. We were never treated rudely. It was a joy
>to be there and to experience such a great city.
I was there about this time, last year. No problems. (I almost got
overcharged in a restaurant in Paris, but
what the hell, I've been overcharged in restaurants right here at home
in LA....)
There was a few "US Go Home" and "Vive Bin Laden" scrawlings hither and
thither, but again,
nothing to worry about, really.
>>Yep, they will be just as rude to American tourists as usual.
>I just have to say something here. My wife and I were in Paris last
>December for about 10 days. It was our first trip there.
>Every single day, we were the recipients of at least one unsolicited
>kindness from a Parisian. We were never treated rudely. It was a joy
>to be there and to experience such a great city.
I was there about this time, last year. No problems. (I almost got
overcharged in a restaurant in Paris, but
what the hell, I've been overcharged in restaurants right here at home
in LA....)
There was a few "US Go Home" and "Vive Bin Laden" scrawlings hither and
thither, but again,
nothing to worry about, really.
Oct 22nd 2002, 11:34 am
#97
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
John wrote:
[ [email protected] wrote: ]
[ John wrote: ]
> > > I am amazed at the extreme socialist agenda being promoted here. I came to
> > > this NG to research travel to europe in the spring but instead have to read
> > > mindless unsubstantiated political propaganda. Go figure.
> > > Maybe if i go the the soc.politics.europe NG i can get some info on travel
> > > in europe.
> > First, if someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to
> > read certain threads in this newsgroup, I'd recommend a call to law
> > enforcement for assistance.
> WOW thats one spiffy observation.... I hit 911 and they came a running to
> get that rougue weapon from my sweating temple. Obviously (or maybe not so
> obvious) i came to this NG to research a future trip to Europe but it seems
> that there is quite a bit of anti-Americanism. I can get my daily dose of
> anti-Americanism when I read the New York Times or the Washington Post. I
> sorta thought that a NG with France in its thread would discuss Paris or
> cafes or the countryside or wine. Who would of thought.........
So indeed no one is forcing you to read this thread...? Which means that
you don't "have to read" anything.
But that's the way Usenet works. People talk about the things that they
want to talk about. Ask nicely, and they might be willing to talk about
the things that you want to talk about. If there are threads that don't
interest you, there is a simple solution: don't read them.
But perhaps you aren't real clear on this whole Usenet thing; saying
something like "a NG with France in its thread" just doesn't make much
sense. Further, it strikes me that most people with even minimal
reading comprehension skills could grasp that a thread under the
"Subject: France, Anti-Americanism?" might well have something to do
with 'anti-americanism' rather than "cafes or the countryside".
But perhaps I presume too much...
> > Second, though perhaps you haven't noticed it, this newsgroup (and
> > Usenet in general, for the most part) is essentially 'socialist';
> > people give what they can, and take away what they need. People
> > who post here aren't selling their information, or even trading it,
> > providing from each according to his abilities, and to each
> > according to his needs, so to speak.
> I guess i acquiesce to your point that Usenet is mildly socialist in a very
> general sense but what does any of this dodo about America have anything to
> do with travel in Europe. I must be off base to expect rec.travel.europe to
> discuss travel in Europe...... Go Figure lol
And astonishingly enough, there are lots of different threads discussing
various general and specific aspects of travel in Europe. Have at it.
On the other hand, if you aren't interested in the question of anti-
americanism, then you'd be well advised to steer clear of those threads
that have that in their Subject: line.
Then again, if you despise socialism, then perhaps you should steer
clear of the whole newsgroup, now that you recognize that it is a
socialist environment.
--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?
[ [email protected] wrote: ]
[ John wrote: ]
> > > I am amazed at the extreme socialist agenda being promoted here. I came to
> > > this NG to research travel to europe in the spring but instead have to read
> > > mindless unsubstantiated political propaganda. Go figure.
> > > Maybe if i go the the soc.politics.europe NG i can get some info on travel
> > > in europe.
> > First, if someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to
> > read certain threads in this newsgroup, I'd recommend a call to law
> > enforcement for assistance.
> WOW thats one spiffy observation.... I hit 911 and they came a running to
> get that rougue weapon from my sweating temple. Obviously (or maybe not so
> obvious) i came to this NG to research a future trip to Europe but it seems
> that there is quite a bit of anti-Americanism. I can get my daily dose of
> anti-Americanism when I read the New York Times or the Washington Post. I
> sorta thought that a NG with France in its thread would discuss Paris or
> cafes or the countryside or wine. Who would of thought.........
So indeed no one is forcing you to read this thread...? Which means that
you don't "have to read" anything.
But that's the way Usenet works. People talk about the things that they
want to talk about. Ask nicely, and they might be willing to talk about
the things that you want to talk about. If there are threads that don't
interest you, there is a simple solution: don't read them.
But perhaps you aren't real clear on this whole Usenet thing; saying
something like "a NG with France in its thread" just doesn't make much
sense. Further, it strikes me that most people with even minimal
reading comprehension skills could grasp that a thread under the
"Subject: France, Anti-Americanism?" might well have something to do
with 'anti-americanism' rather than "cafes or the countryside".
But perhaps I presume too much...
> > Second, though perhaps you haven't noticed it, this newsgroup (and
> > Usenet in general, for the most part) is essentially 'socialist';
> > people give what they can, and take away what they need. People
> > who post here aren't selling their information, or even trading it,
> > providing from each according to his abilities, and to each
> > according to his needs, so to speak.
> I guess i acquiesce to your point that Usenet is mildly socialist in a very
> general sense but what does any of this dodo about America have anything to
> do with travel in Europe. I must be off base to expect rec.travel.europe to
> discuss travel in Europe...... Go Figure lol
And astonishingly enough, there are lots of different threads discussing
various general and specific aspects of travel in Europe. Have at it.
On the other hand, if you aren't interested in the question of anti-
americanism, then you'd be well advised to steer clear of those threads
that have that in their Subject: line.
Then again, if you despise socialism, then perhaps you should steer
clear of the whole newsgroup, now that you recognize that it is a
socialist environment.
--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?
Oct 22nd 2002, 4:22 pm
#98
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 01:09:57 -0500, Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque) wrote:
> Alethea wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:10:13 GMT, " Bruce Bowe"
>> wrote:
>> >We were there a couple of month's ago. Everything was fine. Deep
>> >down, most French people probably haven't forgotten who saved their
>> >hides in WW2.
>> Those who are 80+ now, maybe. The others don't give a damn.
> Ah, but the 80+ American ex-servicemen who make these comments expect
> gratitude "unto the third and fourth generation", hadn't you noticed? We
> don't live in the same world we did in 1945 (which may be good or bad,
> depending upon your point of view). A good share of the world's
> population today was born long after WW2 ended - why should they be
> "grateful" for something that happened years and years before the were
> born?
This points to one of the sharpest differences between the French and
American mindsets. Americans generally feel that one should stand by
one's allies (though the American govt doesn't always do that in
practice). The French see such a notion as naive; one shifts one's
position and allegiances based on the needs of the moment. So Americans
see the French as duplicitous and unreliable while the French think
Americans are simpleminded cowboys.
> Alethea wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:10:13 GMT, " Bruce Bowe"
>> wrote:
>> >We were there a couple of month's ago. Everything was fine. Deep
>> >down, most French people probably haven't forgotten who saved their
>> >hides in WW2.
>> Those who are 80+ now, maybe. The others don't give a damn.
> Ah, but the 80+ American ex-servicemen who make these comments expect
> gratitude "unto the third and fourth generation", hadn't you noticed? We
> don't live in the same world we did in 1945 (which may be good or bad,
> depending upon your point of view). A good share of the world's
> population today was born long after WW2 ended - why should they be
> "grateful" for something that happened years and years before the were
> born?
This points to one of the sharpest differences between the French and
American mindsets. Americans generally feel that one should stand by
one's allies (though the American govt doesn't always do that in
practice). The French see such a notion as naive; one shifts one's
position and allegiances based on the needs of the moment. So Americans
see the French as duplicitous and unreliable while the French think
Americans are simpleminded cowboys.
Oct 22nd 2002, 5:11 pm
#99
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 05:27:02 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
wrote:
>Le Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:07:36 -0400, John a écrit :
>> I personally believe we should have allowed you to fight off the Nazi's on
>> your own. But then all you frenchies would be serving the Germans, speaking
>> their language and being their all round good natured collaborator servants.
>> Well either the Germans or the Russians, just take your pick who the
>> Americans saved france's from cause we all know the french would not have
>> defended themselves.... they would have collaorated and moved on.
>I personally believe that we French should have allowed you to fight off the
>King's men on your own.
But then we might not have been so anxious to arrive in France in
1916-18
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
wrote:
>Le Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:07:36 -0400, John a écrit :
>> I personally believe we should have allowed you to fight off the Nazi's on
>> your own. But then all you frenchies would be serving the Germans, speaking
>> their language and being their all round good natured collaborator servants.
>> Well either the Germans or the Russians, just take your pick who the
>> Americans saved france's from cause we all know the french would not have
>> defended themselves.... they would have collaorated and moved on.
>I personally believe that we French should have allowed you to fight off the
>King's men on your own.
But then we might not have been so anxious to arrive in France in
1916-18
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
Oct 22nd 2002, 5:20 pm
#100
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:09:57 -0700, "Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)"
wrote:
>Alethea wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:10:13 GMT, " Bruce Bowe" wrote:
>> >We were there a couple of month's ago. Everything was fine. Deep down,
>> >most French people probably haven't forgotten who saved their hides in WW2.
>> Those who are 80+ now, maybe. The others don't give a damn.
>Ah, but the 80+ American ex-servicemen who make these
>comments expect gratitude "unto the third and fourth
>generation", hadn't you noticed?
Hell, up to 1914 the French and English were still harboring centuries
old grudges and letting them interfere with making efficient common
cause when they needed it. In fact, they were still on display in the
runup to actually proceeding on the Channel tunnel.
Cut the octagenerian veterans some slack; they won't be around much
longer.
>We don't live in the same
>world we did in 1945 (which may be good or bad, depending
>upon your point of view). A good share of the world's
>population today was born long after WW2 ended - why should
>they be "grateful" for something that happened years and
>years before the were born?
Long term grudges are OK, but fairly short term gratitude isn't?
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
wrote:
>Alethea wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:10:13 GMT, " Bruce Bowe" wrote:
>> >We were there a couple of month's ago. Everything was fine. Deep down,
>> >most French people probably haven't forgotten who saved their hides in WW2.
>> Those who are 80+ now, maybe. The others don't give a damn.
>Ah, but the 80+ American ex-servicemen who make these
>comments expect gratitude "unto the third and fourth
>generation", hadn't you noticed?
Hell, up to 1914 the French and English were still harboring centuries
old grudges and letting them interfere with making efficient common
cause when they needed it. In fact, they were still on display in the
runup to actually proceeding on the Channel tunnel.
Cut the octagenerian veterans some slack; they won't be around much
longer.
>We don't live in the same
>world we did in 1945 (which may be good or bad, depending
>upon your point of view). A good share of the world's
>population today was born long after WW2 ended - why should
>they be "grateful" for something that happened years and
>years before the were born?
Long term grudges are OK, but fairly short term gratitude isn't?
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
Oct 22nd 2002, 5:23 pm
#101
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 05:54:08 -0400, "John"
wrote:
>I am amazed at the extreme socialist agenda being promoted here. I came to
>this NG to research travel to europe in the spring but instead have to read
>mindless unsubstantiated political propaganda. Go figure.
*have* to read? My goodness, is someone there twisting your arm? Hint:
this thread is titled, "Re: France, Anti-Americanism?". I suggest you
avoid any article with that subject line.
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
wrote:
>I am amazed at the extreme socialist agenda being promoted here. I came to
>this NG to research travel to europe in the spring but instead have to read
>mindless unsubstantiated political propaganda. Go figure.
*have* to read? My goodness, is someone there twisting your arm? Hint:
this thread is titled, "Re: France, Anti-Americanism?". I suggest you
avoid any article with that subject line.
************ DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ***********
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
Oct 22nd 2002, 8:39 pm
#102
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:23:46 -0500, Padraig Breathnach wrote:
> Desmond Coughlan wrote:
>>There is, it is true, a fair amount of 'generic' anti-Americanism in
>>Europe, and in France in particular. However, most people direct these
>>feelings at Bush, or at the United States' foreign policy in general.
> It would be convenient if we had separate terms for being against all
> Americans and for being against American foreign policy. But we don't,
> so we will have to keep on explaining the difference.
Too often being "against American foreign policy" means exactly what it
says - being against American foreign policy, regardless of what that
policy may be:
If the U.S. doesn't get involved, we're isolationist.
If the U.S. does get involved, we're butting in where we don't belong
(or "interfering in the internal affairs of a sovereign state", or "acting
like the world's policeman").
If the U.S. acts on its own initiative, we're unilateralist.
If the U.S. waits for consensus, we're indecisive.
If the U.S. fails to take pre-emptive action, we're asleep at the switch.
If the U.S. does take pre-emptive action, we're trigger-happy.
If the U.S. lets aid recipients spend funds as they see fit, we're
letting corruption run amok.
If the U.S. tries to see that aid is well-spent, we're imposing
our values on another culture.
And on and on. No wonder so many Americans just say to hell with it all.
> Desmond Coughlan wrote:
>>There is, it is true, a fair amount of 'generic' anti-Americanism in
>>Europe, and in France in particular. However, most people direct these
>>feelings at Bush, or at the United States' foreign policy in general.
> It would be convenient if we had separate terms for being against all
> Americans and for being against American foreign policy. But we don't,
> so we will have to keep on explaining the difference.
Too often being "against American foreign policy" means exactly what it
says - being against American foreign policy, regardless of what that
policy may be:
If the U.S. doesn't get involved, we're isolationist.
If the U.S. does get involved, we're butting in where we don't belong
(or "interfering in the internal affairs of a sovereign state", or "acting
like the world's policeman").
If the U.S. acts on its own initiative, we're unilateralist.
If the U.S. waits for consensus, we're indecisive.
If the U.S. fails to take pre-emptive action, we're asleep at the switch.
If the U.S. does take pre-emptive action, we're trigger-happy.
If the U.S. lets aid recipients spend funds as they see fit, we're
letting corruption run amok.
If the U.S. tries to see that aid is well-spent, we're imposing
our values on another culture.
And on and on. No wonder so many Americans just say to hell with it all.
Oct 23rd 2002, 4:46 pm
#103
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
Hatunen wrote:
> Cut the octagenerian veterans some slack; they won't be around much
> longer.
Agreed, David.
> Long term grudges are OK, but fairly short term gratitude isn't?
Agreed again! (i.e. with the implicit answer to your rhetorical
question)
However, there are a few problems with the demands for gratitude which
have been in evidence on this thread in the last few days.
One is that those making them are almost certainly not the octogenarians
who might expect gratitude. I have no reason to believe that the average
GI in World War II was radically different from his British or Soviet
counterpart. British men of my father's generation, in my experience, do
not demand gratitude for their war service. they perceive themselves as
doing their duty. So do American, Soviet - and indeed German - men of
teh same age whom I have seen interviewed on television.
Another is that the demands show no understanding of the relative
contribution made by the various allied nations in the Second World War.
Yet another is that demands for gratitude, however well founded, rarely
win friends and influence people in any relationship, however close or
distant.
Alan Harrison
> Cut the octagenerian veterans some slack; they won't be around much
> longer.
Agreed, David.
> Long term grudges are OK, but fairly short term gratitude isn't?
Agreed again! (i.e. with the implicit answer to your rhetorical
question)
However, there are a few problems with the demands for gratitude which
have been in evidence on this thread in the last few days.
One is that those making them are almost certainly not the octogenarians
who might expect gratitude. I have no reason to believe that the average
GI in World War II was radically different from his British or Soviet
counterpart. British men of my father's generation, in my experience, do
not demand gratitude for their war service. they perceive themselves as
doing their duty. So do American, Soviet - and indeed German - men of
teh same age whom I have seen interviewed on television.
Another is that the demands show no understanding of the relative
contribution made by the various allied nations in the Second World War.
Yet another is that demands for gratitude, however well founded, rarely
win friends and influence people in any relationship, however close or
distant.
Alan Harrison
Oct 23rd 2002, 6:26 pm
#104
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 114
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
Yet another is that demands for gratitude, however well founded, rarely
win friends and influence people in any relationship, however close or
distant.
Alan Harrison
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
You are correct, Alan!
If the French appreciate the other Allies' aid during WWII in the liberation of their country, then so must we Americans appreciate the French aid during our own War of Independence. Without Rochambeau's and De Grasse's contributions at Yorktown, we probably would not have prevailed that day.
We must be realistic, though, and acknowledge the fact that countries rarely, if ever, ally themselves during times of war for purely altruistic reasons. The Americans joined WWII only after being attacked themselves (isolationism) and the French only helped the Colonials because it hurt their arch-enemies (British) greatly to lose one of their main sources of raw materials and tax income.
win friends and influence people in any relationship, however close or
distant.
Alan Harrison
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
You are correct, Alan!
If the French appreciate the other Allies' aid during WWII in the liberation of their country, then so must we Americans appreciate the French aid during our own War of Independence. Without Rochambeau's and De Grasse's contributions at Yorktown, we probably would not have prevailed that day.
We must be realistic, though, and acknowledge the fact that countries rarely, if ever, ally themselves during times of war for purely altruistic reasons. The Americans joined WWII only after being attacked themselves (isolationism) and the French only helped the Colonials because it hurt their arch-enemies (British) greatly to lose one of their main sources of raw materials and tax income.
Oct 23rd 2002, 9:04 pm
#105
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: France, Anti-Americanism?
he did travel abroad, south of Texas, knew how to order Tequila in Spanish.
Desmond Coughlan wrote:
> Le Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:24:21 -0700, Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque) a écrit :
>>>> And for France to "throw stones" in light ot its history
>>>> (repressive monarchy to repressive revolutionists to feeble and corrupt
>>>> democracy to cruel colonialists, to collaberationists) is ironic.
>>>Yes, yes, yes ... but the important thing is that we _learn_ from our
>>>mistakes. Take elections, for example ... we in France tend to elect
>>>our presidents via universal direct suffrage. Whilst you in the United
>>>States ... why, do tell us about how your Supreme Court 'handles' elections,
>>>I haven't had a giggle for a while, now ..........
>>Yeah, but that ceased to be funny when 9/11 happened,
>>leaving a cretin in charge of an angry nation wanting
>>"revenge".
> Now, now, Evelyn ... he _did_ get an MBA and flew fighter jets ... ;-)
Desmond Coughlan wrote:
> Le Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:24:21 -0700, Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque) a écrit :
>>>> And for France to "throw stones" in light ot its history
>>>> (repressive monarchy to repressive revolutionists to feeble and corrupt
>>>> democracy to cruel colonialists, to collaberationists) is ironic.
>>>Yes, yes, yes ... but the important thing is that we _learn_ from our
>>>mistakes. Take elections, for example ... we in France tend to elect
>>>our presidents via universal direct suffrage. Whilst you in the United
>>>States ... why, do tell us about how your Supreme Court 'handles' elections,
>>>I haven't had a giggle for a while, now ..........
>>Yeah, but that ceased to be funny when 9/11 happened,
>>leaving a cretin in charge of an angry nation wanting
>>"revenge".
> Now, now, Evelyn ... he _did_ get an MBA and flew fighter jets ... ;-)