Dutch rush to get ID cards
Jan 12th 2005 | 10:39 pm
#61
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
In article <[email protected]. com>, "Jordi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Mike O'Sullivan wrote:
>> Breathtaking question. Why should you, presumably a respectable
>> law-abiding Netherlands citizen, be expected to have to prove the
>fact,
>> unless you are visibly breaking the law?
>I'm not Dutch, so I speak from the point of view of someone who has an
>ID card since being 12 year old or something.
>Beyond the obvious situations where I had to provide ID (travel, banks,
>vote, etc.) I have never been asked mine.... which is a good thing
>because I don't usually carry one (although it is always near, be it at
>home, car, etc.)
>As I said elsewhere in this topic, the requirement is just a way to
>make the policemen job easier and in less time. If a policeman asks you
>for an ID it will never be because he feels like to, should it be the
>case, he should face the consequences. If asked to identify oneself the
>odds are that giving a false name would be tempting, should there not
>be such a requirement.
In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police would like
a police state to make their life easier, and the government want to regulate
every aspect of our lives. Measures which help them do this are not
necessarily a good thing.
Paranoid, me? But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone checked up on
with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used to help suppress
political dissent?
>Mike O'Sullivan wrote:
>> Breathtaking question. Why should you, presumably a respectable
>> law-abiding Netherlands citizen, be expected to have to prove the
>fact,
>> unless you are visibly breaking the law?
>I'm not Dutch, so I speak from the point of view of someone who has an
>ID card since being 12 year old or something.
>Beyond the obvious situations where I had to provide ID (travel, banks,
>vote, etc.) I have never been asked mine.... which is a good thing
>because I don't usually carry one (although it is always near, be it at
>home, car, etc.)
>As I said elsewhere in this topic, the requirement is just a way to
>make the policemen job easier and in less time. If a policeman asks you
>for an ID it will never be because he feels like to, should it be the
>case, he should face the consequences. If asked to identify oneself the
>odds are that giving a false name would be tempting, should there not
>be such a requirement.
In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police would like
a police state to make their life easier, and the government want to regulate
every aspect of our lives. Measures which help them do this are not
necessarily a good thing.
Paranoid, me? But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone checked up on
with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used to help suppress
political dissent?
Jan 12th 2005 | 10:48 pm
#62
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
[email protected] (rob) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> In article <[email protected]. com>,
> "Jordi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Mike O'Sullivan wrote:
>>> Breathtaking question. Why should you, presumably a respectable
>>> law-abiding Netherlands citizen, be expected to have to prove the
>>fact,
>>> unless you are visibly breaking the law?
>>I'm not Dutch, so I speak from the point of view of someone who has an
>>ID card since being 12 year old or something.
>>Beyond the obvious situations where I had to provide ID (travel,
>>banks, vote, etc.) I have never been asked mine.... which is a good
>>thing because I don't usually carry one (although it is always near,
>>be it at home, car, etc.)
>>As I said elsewhere in this topic, the requirement is just a way to
>>make the policemen job easier and in less time. If a policeman asks
>>you for an ID it will never be because he feels like to, should it be
>>the case, he should face the consequences. If asked to identify
>>oneself the odds are that giving a false name would be tempting,
>>should there not be such a requirement.
>
> In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police
> would like a police state to make their life easier, and the
> government want to regulate every aspect of our lives. Measures which
> help them do this are not necessarily a good thing.
>
> Paranoid, me? But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone
> checked up on with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used
> to help suppress political dissent?
I really don't understand why people from the UK complain about ID cards
when they are already being watched at all times. IMO, I would rather
carry ID then be filmed.
news:[email protected]:
> In article <[email protected]. com>,
> "Jordi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Mike O'Sullivan wrote:
>>> Breathtaking question. Why should you, presumably a respectable
>>> law-abiding Netherlands citizen, be expected to have to prove the
>>fact,
>>> unless you are visibly breaking the law?
>>I'm not Dutch, so I speak from the point of view of someone who has an
>>ID card since being 12 year old or something.
>>Beyond the obvious situations where I had to provide ID (travel,
>>banks, vote, etc.) I have never been asked mine.... which is a good
>>thing because I don't usually carry one (although it is always near,
>>be it at home, car, etc.)
>>As I said elsewhere in this topic, the requirement is just a way to
>>make the policemen job easier and in less time. If a policeman asks
>>you for an ID it will never be because he feels like to, should it be
>>the case, he should face the consequences. If asked to identify
>>oneself the odds are that giving a false name would be tempting,
>>should there not be such a requirement.
>
> In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police
> would like a police state to make their life easier, and the
> government want to regulate every aspect of our lives. Measures which
> help them do this are not necessarily a good thing.
>
> Paranoid, me? But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone
> checked up on with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used
> to help suppress political dissent?
I really don't understand why people from the UK complain about ID cards
when they are already being watched at all times. IMO, I would rather
carry ID then be filmed.
Jan 12th 2005 | 11:17 pm
#63
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
rob wrote:
> In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police
would like
> a police state to make their life easier, and the government want to
regulate
> every aspect of our lives. Measures which help them do this are not
> necessarily a good thing.
Why appoint a government or police, then? If I trust someone to openly
carry a firearm it is in the grounds that they will use it (or refrain
from using it) properly. Same with the power of asking someone to
identify oneself. (and yes, I know most policemen in the UK don't carry
firearms).
> Paranoid, me? But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone
checked up on
> with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used to help
suppress
> political dissent?
They were used that way, for sure, but the lack of them would not have
prevented any single abuse. Moreso it would have created further 'false
positives' and misidentification ('hey, we thought you just looked like
that commie we were searching for, I hope torture was not too
unpleasant').
Then again, the problem was not the existence of ID cards, but the use
by a repressive government (which could have used national security
numbers, municipal listings, etc. instead). In a democratic state, use
of an ID card should not be feared just like we don't fear policemen
starting to randomly shoot people.
J.
> In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police
would like
> a police state to make their life easier, and the government want to
regulate
> every aspect of our lives. Measures which help them do this are not
> necessarily a good thing.
Why appoint a government or police, then? If I trust someone to openly
carry a firearm it is in the grounds that they will use it (or refrain
from using it) properly. Same with the power of asking someone to
identify oneself. (and yes, I know most policemen in the UK don't carry
firearms).
> Paranoid, me? But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone
checked up on
> with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used to help
suppress
> political dissent?
They were used that way, for sure, but the lack of them would not have
prevented any single abuse. Moreso it would have created further 'false
positives' and misidentification ('hey, we thought you just looked like
that commie we were searching for, I hope torture was not too
unpleasant').
Then again, the problem was not the existence of ID cards, but the use
by a repressive government (which could have used national security
numbers, municipal listings, etc. instead). In a democratic state, use
of an ID card should not be feared just like we don't fear policemen
starting to randomly shoot people.
J.
Jan 12th 2005 | 11:59 pm
#64
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
In article <[email protected]>, Emilia <emilia@(spam-so-)easy.com> wrote:
>[email protected] (rob) wrote in
>>
>> In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police
>> would like a police state to make their life easier, and the
>> government want to regulate every aspect of our lives. Measures which
>> help them do this are not necessarily a good thing.
>>
>> Paranoid, me? But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone
>> checked up on with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used
>> to help suppress political dissent?
>I really don't understand why people from the UK complain about ID cards
>when they are already being watched at all times. IMO, I would rather
>carry ID then be filmed.
It's not so easy to construct a large cross referenced database from CCTV
footage. But CCTV did appear without much public debate, and now people accept
a fait accompli. Just shows what the government can get away with, when they
are not being closely scrutinised.
>[email protected] (rob) wrote in
>>
>> In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police
>> would like a police state to make their life easier, and the
>> government want to regulate every aspect of our lives. Measures which
>> help them do this are not necessarily a good thing.
>>
>> Paranoid, me? But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone
>> checked up on with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used
>> to help suppress political dissent?
>I really don't understand why people from the UK complain about ID cards
>when they are already being watched at all times. IMO, I would rather
>carry ID then be filmed.
It's not so easy to construct a large cross referenced database from CCTV
footage. But CCTV did appear without much public debate, and now people accept
a fait accompli. Just shows what the government can get away with, when they
are not being closely scrutinised.
Jan 13th 2005 | 12:08 am
#65
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
In article <[email protected]. com>, "Jordi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>rob wrote:
>> In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police
>would like
>> a police state to make their life easier, and the government want to
>regulate
>> every aspect of our lives. Measures which help them do this are not
>> necessarily a good thing.
>Why appoint a government or police, then?
They are a necessary evil, and certainly shouldn't be allowed to do whatever
they want.
>> Paranoid, me? But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone
>checked up on
>> with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used to help
>suppress
>> political dissent?
>They were used that way, for sure, but the lack of them would not have
>prevented any single abuse. Moreso it would have created further 'false
>positives' and misidentification ('hey, we thought you just looked like
>that commie we were searching for, I hope torture was not too
>unpleasant').
>Then again, the problem was not the existence of ID cards, but the use
>by a repressive government (which could have used national security
>numbers, municipal listings, etc. instead). In a democratic state, use
>of an ID card should not be feared just like we don't fear policemen
>starting to randomly shoot people.
To be sure, major oppression seems to be possible without id cards. My
personal worry is it will make petty restrictions easier to enforce. Ignoring
the stupid restrictions will no longer be an option. My hope is that
government incompetence will make the id cards useless, but in which case, why
have them at all?
>rob wrote:
>> In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police
>would like
>> a police state to make their life easier, and the government want to
>regulate
>> every aspect of our lives. Measures which help them do this are not
>> necessarily a good thing.
>Why appoint a government or police, then?
They are a necessary evil, and certainly shouldn't be allowed to do whatever
they want.
>> Paranoid, me? But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone
>checked up on
>> with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used to help
>suppress
>> political dissent?
>They were used that way, for sure, but the lack of them would not have
>prevented any single abuse. Moreso it would have created further 'false
>positives' and misidentification ('hey, we thought you just looked like
>that commie we were searching for, I hope torture was not too
>unpleasant').
>Then again, the problem was not the existence of ID cards, but the use
>by a repressive government (which could have used national security
>numbers, municipal listings, etc. instead). In a democratic state, use
>of an ID card should not be feared just like we don't fear policemen
>starting to randomly shoot people.
To be sure, major oppression seems to be possible without id cards. My
personal worry is it will make petty restrictions easier to enforce. Ignoring
the stupid restrictions will no longer be an option. My hope is that
government incompetence will make the id cards useless, but in which case, why
have them at all?
Jan 13th 2005 | 12:30 am
#66
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:56:46 +0000, Mike O'Sullivan
<[email protected]> wrote:
>nitram wrote:
>>>But it's a very great step beyond. All other forms of ID normally
>>>carried are completely voluntary,
>>
>> A passport when in a foreign country?
>> An ID card in many places of work in UK.
>>
>>>including a driving license. I only
>>>need one if I intend to drive, in the public interest.
>>
>>
>> You need to carry one if you drive, in your own interest.
>You are completely missing the point. Travelling abroad is voluntary,
>not compulsory. Driving a motor vehicle is voluntary, not compulsory.
>You CHOOSE whether or not to engage in these activities. If you choose
>to do so, you agree to pass any necessary tests, in the public interest.
>If you don't want to, you don't drive and you stay at home, and it's
>nobody else's business.
What about all the hundreds of thousands of CCTV cameras that record
every move you make in UK?
Do you stay at home to avoid them?
Would you refuse a job if you had to a carry an ID card?
I've carried and worn an assortment of ID cards in several countries
and continents over many decades, how come I'm not in Guantanamo by
now?
--
Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:
>nitram wrote:
>>>But it's a very great step beyond. All other forms of ID normally
>>>carried are completely voluntary,
>>
>> A passport when in a foreign country?
>> An ID card in many places of work in UK.
>>
>>>including a driving license. I only
>>>need one if I intend to drive, in the public interest.
>>
>>
>> You need to carry one if you drive, in your own interest.
>You are completely missing the point. Travelling abroad is voluntary,
>not compulsory. Driving a motor vehicle is voluntary, not compulsory.
>You CHOOSE whether or not to engage in these activities. If you choose
>to do so, you agree to pass any necessary tests, in the public interest.
>If you don't want to, you don't drive and you stay at home, and it's
>nobody else's business.
What about all the hundreds of thousands of CCTV cameras that record
every move you make in UK?
Do you stay at home to avoid them?
Would you refuse a job if you had to a carry an ID card?
I've carried and worn an assortment of ID cards in several countries
and continents over many decades, how come I'm not in Guantanamo by
now?
--
Martin
Jan 13th 2005 | 12:34 am
#67
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:39:35 GMT, [email protected] (rob) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]. com>, "Jordi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Mike O'Sullivan wrote:
>>> Breathtaking question. Why should you, presumably a respectable
>>> law-abiding Netherlands citizen, be expected to have to prove the
>>fact,
>>> unless you are visibly breaking the law?
>>I'm not Dutch, so I speak from the point of view of someone who has an
>>ID card since being 12 year old or something.
>>Beyond the obvious situations where I had to provide ID (travel, banks,
>>vote, etc.) I have never been asked mine.... which is a good thing
>>because I don't usually carry one (although it is always near, be it at
>>home, car, etc.)
>>As I said elsewhere in this topic, the requirement is just a way to
>>make the policemen job easier and in less time. If a policeman asks you
>>for an ID it will never be because he feels like to, should it be the
>>case, he should face the consequences. If asked to identify oneself the
>>odds are that giving a false name would be tempting, should there not
>>be such a requirement.
>In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police would like
>a police state to make their life easier,
On what basis do you make that statement?
British police activities are not even properly coordinated at a
national level, UK has a long way to go before the infrastructure is
in place to turn it into a police state.
>and the government want to regulate
>every aspect of our lives. Measures which help them do this are not
>necessarily a good thing.
>Paranoid, me?
Possibly :-)
> But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone checked up on
>with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used to help suppress
>political dissent?
Are UK passport holders regularly rounded up by British police and
taken away to be shot?
--
Martin
>In article <[email protected]. com>, "Jordi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Mike O'Sullivan wrote:
>>> Breathtaking question. Why should you, presumably a respectable
>>> law-abiding Netherlands citizen, be expected to have to prove the
>>fact,
>>> unless you are visibly breaking the law?
>>I'm not Dutch, so I speak from the point of view of someone who has an
>>ID card since being 12 year old or something.
>>Beyond the obvious situations where I had to provide ID (travel, banks,
>>vote, etc.) I have never been asked mine.... which is a good thing
>>because I don't usually carry one (although it is always near, be it at
>>home, car, etc.)
>>As I said elsewhere in this topic, the requirement is just a way to
>>make the policemen job easier and in less time. If a policeman asks you
>>for an ID it will never be because he feels like to, should it be the
>>case, he should face the consequences. If asked to identify oneself the
>>odds are that giving a false name would be tempting, should there not
>>be such a requirement.
>In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police would like
>a police state to make their life easier,
On what basis do you make that statement?
British police activities are not even properly coordinated at a
national level, UK has a long way to go before the infrastructure is
in place to turn it into a police state.
>and the government want to regulate
>every aspect of our lives. Measures which help them do this are not
>necessarily a good thing.
>Paranoid, me?
Possibly :-)
> But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone checked up on
>with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used to help suppress
>political dissent?
Are UK passport holders regularly rounded up by British police and
taken away to be shot?
--
Martin
Jan 13th 2005 | 12:36 am
#68
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:59:29 GMT, [email protected] (rob) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Emilia <emilia@(spam-so-)easy.com> wrote:
>>[email protected] (rob) wrote in
>>>
>>> In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police
>>> would like a police state to make their life easier, and the
>>> government want to regulate every aspect of our lives. Measures which
>>> help them do this are not necessarily a good thing.
>>>
>>> Paranoid, me? But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone
>>> checked up on with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used
>>> to help suppress political dissent?
>>I really don't understand why people from the UK complain about ID cards
>>when they are already being watched at all times. IMO, I would rather
>>carry ID then be filmed.
>It's not so easy to construct a large cross referenced database from CCTV
>footage. But CCTV did appear without much public debate, and now people accept
>a fait accompli. Just shows what the government can get away with, when they
>are not being closely scrutinised.
Which government do you have in mind CCTV is not a recent thing in UK.
Most CCTVs in UK are not police controlled.
--
Martin
>In article <[email protected]>, Emilia <emilia@(spam-so-)easy.com> wrote:
>>[email protected] (rob) wrote in
>>>
>>> In the UK, we do not trust our government or our police. The police
>>> would like a police state to make their life easier, and the
>>> government want to regulate every aspect of our lives. Measures which
>>> help them do this are not necessarily a good thing.
>>>
>>> Paranoid, me? But, say, in Franco's time in Spain, was everyone
>>> checked up on with Id cards guilty of criminality, or were they used
>>> to help suppress political dissent?
>>I really don't understand why people from the UK complain about ID cards
>>when they are already being watched at all times. IMO, I would rather
>>carry ID then be filmed.
>It's not so easy to construct a large cross referenced database from CCTV
>footage. But CCTV did appear without much public debate, and now people accept
>a fait accompli. Just shows what the government can get away with, when they
>are not being closely scrutinised.
Which government do you have in mind CCTV is not a recent thing in UK.
Most CCTVs in UK are not police controlled.
--
Martin
Jan 13th 2005 | 12:45 am
#69
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:08:23 GMT, [email protected] (rob) wrote:
>My hope is that
>government incompetence will make the id cards useless, but in which case, why
>have them at all?
because there are situations where having an ID card makes life much
easier for the carrier of it.
--
Martin
>My hope is that
>government incompetence will make the id cards useless, but in which case, why
>have them at all?
because there are situations where having an ID card makes life much
easier for the carrier of it.
--
Martin
Jan 13th 2005 | 1:03 am
#70
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
In article <[email protected]>, nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:08:23 GMT, [email protected] (rob) wrote:
>>My hope is that
>>government incompetence will make the id cards useless, but in which case, why
>
>>have them at all?
>because there are situations where having an ID card makes life much
>easier for the carrier of it.
Such as?
>On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:08:23 GMT, [email protected] (rob) wrote:
>>My hope is that
>>government incompetence will make the id cards useless, but in which case, why
>
>>have them at all?
>because there are situations where having an ID card makes life much
>easier for the carrier of it.
Such as?
Jan 13th 2005 | 1:17 am
#71
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:03:30 GMT, [email protected] (rob) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:08:23 GMT, [email protected] (rob) wrote:
>>>My hope is that
>>>government incompetence will make the id cards useless, but in which case, why
>>
>>>have them at all?
>>because there are situations where having an ID card makes life much
>>easier for the carrier of it.
>Such as?
Go back to the beginning of the thread for lists people have given.
--
Martin
>In article <[email protected]>, nitram <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:08:23 GMT, [email protected] (rob) wrote:
>>>My hope is that
>>>government incompetence will make the id cards useless, but in which case, why
>>
>>>have them at all?
>>because there are situations where having an ID card makes life much
>>easier for the carrier of it.
>Such as?
Go back to the beginning of the thread for lists people have given.
--
Martin
Jan 13th 2005 | 1:28 am
#72
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
rob wrote:
> >Why appoint a government or police, then?
> They are a necessary evil, and certainly shouldn't be allowed to do
whatever
> they want.
Of course, but they should also be given the tools to work properly.
> To be sure, major oppression seems to be possible without id cards.
My
> personal worry is it will make petty restrictions easier to enforce.
Ignoring
> the stupid restrictions will no longer be an option.
It will still be. You are just more likely to pay the consequences of
not following them.
> government incompetence will make the id cards useless, but in which
case, why
> have them at all?
So that you can open a bank account without producing your phone bill,
for example :)
Anyway, ID cards in countries where they are already used are the
backbone of any system and they avoid confusing people (specially in
countries like yours, where people have a single surname). Having an
homogenous single number relating to a single person is, IMHO, a net
gain.
J.
> >Why appoint a government or police, then?
> They are a necessary evil, and certainly shouldn't be allowed to do
whatever
> they want.
Of course, but they should also be given the tools to work properly.
> To be sure, major oppression seems to be possible without id cards.
My
> personal worry is it will make petty restrictions easier to enforce.
Ignoring
> the stupid restrictions will no longer be an option.
It will still be. You are just more likely to pay the consequences of
not following them.
> government incompetence will make the id cards useless, but in which
case, why
> have them at all?
So that you can open a bank account without producing your phone bill,
for example :)
Anyway, ID cards in countries where they are already used are the
backbone of any system and they avoid confusing people (specially in
countries like yours, where people have a single surname). Having an
homogenous single number relating to a single person is, IMHO, a net
gain.
J.
Jan 13th 2005 | 1:32 am
#73
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
On 13 Jan 2005 06:28:59 -0800, "Jordi" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>rob wrote:
>> >Why appoint a government or police, then?
>> They are a necessary evil, and certainly shouldn't be allowed to do
>whatever
>> they want.
>Of course, but they should also be given the tools to work properly.
>> To be sure, major oppression seems to be possible without id cards.
>My
>> personal worry is it will make petty restrictions easier to enforce.
>Ignoring
>> the stupid restrictions will no longer be an option.
>It will still be. You are just more likely to pay the consequences of
>not following them.
>> government incompetence will make the id cards useless, but in which
>case, why
>> have them at all?
>So that you can open a bank account without producing your phone bill,
>for example :)
>Anyway, ID cards in countries where they are already used are the
>backbone of any system and they avoid confusing people (specially in
>countries like yours, where people have a single surname). Having an
>homogenous single number relating to a single person is, IMHO, a net
>gain.
The UK adult population is all in the IR database and gawd knows where
else already.
--
Martin
wrote:
>rob wrote:
>> >Why appoint a government or police, then?
>> They are a necessary evil, and certainly shouldn't be allowed to do
>whatever
>> they want.
>Of course, but they should also be given the tools to work properly.
>> To be sure, major oppression seems to be possible without id cards.
>My
>> personal worry is it will make petty restrictions easier to enforce.
>Ignoring
>> the stupid restrictions will no longer be an option.
>It will still be. You are just more likely to pay the consequences of
>not following them.
>> government incompetence will make the id cards useless, but in which
>case, why
>> have them at all?
>So that you can open a bank account without producing your phone bill,
>for example :)
>Anyway, ID cards in countries where they are already used are the
>backbone of any system and they avoid confusing people (specially in
>countries like yours, where people have a single surname). Having an
>homogenous single number relating to a single person is, IMHO, a net
>gain.
The UK adult population is all in the IR database and gawd knows where
else already.
--
Martin
Jan 13th 2005 | 2:20 am
#74
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
>> there are situations where having an ID card makes life much
>> easier for the carrier of it.
> Such as?
Getting the institutions that control the card system not to make
life difficult for you.
Getting those institutions themselves under control is a better
solution.
The history of systems like the South African pass laws says that
ID cards will just be used as an excuse for harassment of minorities.
The British police have a bad enough track record for that already.
In particular, blacks in London and Manchester can expect a vastly
higher rate of police interference in simply going from A to B than
they suffer at present. The typical white supremacist London cop
must be wetting himself at the prospect of being able to slam 1000-
pound fines on randomly selected blacks for simple absentmindedness.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
>> easier for the carrier of it.
> Such as?
Getting the institutions that control the card system not to make
life difficult for you.
Getting those institutions themselves under control is a better
solution.
The history of systems like the South African pass laws says that
ID cards will just be used as an excuse for harassment of minorities.
The British police have a bad enough track record for that already.
In particular, blacks in London and Manchester can expect a vastly
higher rate of police interference in simply going from A to B than
they suffer at present. The typical white supremacist London cop
must be wetting himself at the prospect of being able to slam 1000-
pound fines on randomly selected blacks for simple absentmindedness.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
Jan 13th 2005 | 2:23 am
#75
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dutch rush to get ID cards
> Anyway, ID cards in countries where they are already used are the
> backbone of any system and they avoid confusing people (specially in
> countries like yours, where people have a single surname). Having an
> homogenous single number relating to a single person is, IMHO, a net
> gain.
ID cards and unique numbers are distinct mechanisms and neither
implies the other.
The US has a homogeneous-number system and a much worse problem
with identity theft than the UK does. If you can only steal
*bits* of somebody's identity you can't do anywhere near as
much damage.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
> backbone of any system and they avoid confusing people (specially in
> countries like yours, where people have a single surname). Having an
> homogenous single number relating to a single person is, IMHO, a net
> gain.
ID cards and unique numbers are distinct mechanisms and neither
implies the other.
The US has a homogeneous-number system and a much worse problem
with identity theft than the UK does. If you can only steal
*bits* of somebody's identity you can't do anywhere near as
much damage.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
