GeniB

I know what you mean.. I and OH drink very moderately and amongst most Brit ex-pats it's seen as being a tad unsociable. The ethic being to get smashed as quickly as possible in some cases. We don't go to bars either. So where do you meet people of any nationality ?
we have had very poor luck in the 5 yrs we have been here in that those we have clicked with the most have either died. Been forced to return home through tragic circumstances, Been forced to return home through recent well known bank failures i.e. stealing their life savings.Moved to another country with more 'life'.
It's not like we haven't tried. Joined a couple of clubs,volunteer for charity.etc

Don't get me wrong we have made a few friends here.. but the emphasis is on the 'few' and it does get a bit predictable and a tad claustrophobic at times.ie can't say your doing something else lol.

Maybe it's because of the nature of the Algarve' It does attract many 'Snow Bird' characters. People who simple dip in and out of life here. Cherry pick when they will participate. Is this a very British trait? I have noticed on other solely British forums that people seem to 'treat' themselves a lot. i.e. They own more than one holiday home, They take many more holidays than we ever did whilst living in NL. They often go away at weekends. My cousin is one of them,taking three cruises a year. Spending three months in Lanzarote in the spring and coming here to Portugal in the autumn to a time share. All on a teachers pension.
I have noted before that we are surrounded most of the year by empty villa's Investment properties I guess.?. It is a terrible shame and does nothing for the community.
The Portuguese people deserve better than to be used as a part time play area and speculation pot by it's foreign visitors.It adds nothing to their society. I do know it has made me begin to think twice as to wether this is the place for us.I feel more and more uncomfortable sitting on my hill,quite apart from the life of the village below .

bejaboz

ouriquejan, your comments reflect ours for the same area. Although we are not residents and only visit a few times a year, we feel the same in the main, about the majority of ex-pats we've met.


I'm sure there are many who we would share similar likes/dislikes with, but in the short periods we're around Ourique we just haven't met many.

liveaboard

All the houses around me are empty most of the year too; but half are Portuguese owned.
I know the owners and have a chat with them all when they're around, but that's about it.
Although I'm friendly with several local neighbors, the language barrier prevents all but the most rudimentary communication.
That doesn't stop us from asking for and giving each other a hand when needed. Mainly with our tractors.
I think this is just the rural reality. There's no work other than low wage service jobs. The young leave for the cities and come back when they're old.
Brits, Germans, Dutch, Portuguese. They all have the same situation, they'd like to live here but few can afford it.

Alcohol; again, it seems pretty much the same everywhere to me.
People drink as much as they feel they can. It cuts right across religion, culture, nationality, political persuasion, and economic status.
right wingers, left wingers, working stiffs and hippies, just chug it down.

BillBullock

I'm beginning to feel a bit sorry for you GeniB. I don't recognize a lot of what you describe. Where do you live in the Algarve?

macliam

Ouriquejan and I have maybe struck lucky - I know her area has many foreigners (not just Brits), but it still "feels" Portuguese. My own house is out in the sticks, so my nearest neighbours are Portuguese (and the nearest is half a click away!) although there are a few estrangeiros around me. Ourique again is a Portuguese town, with a few nods to the foreign community, but definitely Portuguese in character as is Castro Verde and the other towns in the area.

When we bought, I was surprised how many foreigners I heard in Pingo Doce, there being no beaches, no Golf, etc., but maybe they too found reasons to escape or avoid the Algarve. As ouriquejan says, they do tend to get together and to frequent certain places, mainly due to the language, but I don't see the need to do the same. Mybe we should set up an AltExpat club!

ouriquejan

SaffyRosie

Hello, i thought I would give my observations,for what they are worth and they may be of little interest. My husband and I are what you call "Snowbirds". A lovely term although I think a few may use it in a derisery way.

My husband and I are fortunate to be early retirees mainly due to never having had children and the expense associated with them. We have worked for our money and now intend to enjoy it.

We still love the UK but find the winters a little miserable, hence our decision to spend 6/7 months a year in the Algarve. We don't want to stay the summer as it is too hot for us. Yes, we are belong to that group that will be dipping in and out. Although we are taking Portuguese lessons realistically we won't become fluent in the language and realise that this will limit our involvement in the local culture and in making Portuguese friends. We are making friends but at the moment this is via the English expat community out here in Lagos. We would love to make Portuguese friends but I think that unless you live here permanently it will be difficult. Amongst the nationalities we socialise with are are American, Canadian, Twainese, Chilean, French and British. And what an interesting group they are. We've only been here 6 weeks and I hope we will meet many other nationalities. I never meet with such a diverse group outside of living in London for 20 years. We are loving our time here, the climate, cuisine, friendly Portuguese, great expat community, great social scene, sea and lovely landscape. We are trying out activities/pursuits that we didn't in the UK, for example we now play mahhjong and bridge on a regular basis. We have not bought a house here, partly due to poor exchange rate but also we don't want to live here full time and we may want to experience winter living elsewhere such as Madeira or other areas of Portugal. Instead we rent a holiday apartment. We spend our money in the local market, shops and restaurants. So we hope we help the economy here, if only just a little.

I think what I'm trying to say is that although we are not experiencing the full Portuguese culture does it make our experience any less worthwhile. There seems to be an undercurrent on these forums that unless you fully immerse yourself in all things Portuguese then your experience is not "real" or worthwhile. But if you are only here a few months of the year then you can't be expected to become immersed. It's a case of cutting your cloth etc. Yes, we are experiencing an expat version of Portugal, but you know what, it's damned enjoyable. Nobody is going to make me feel guilty.

Each to their own.

macliam

SaffyRosie, you are on an extended holiday - the situation is different.

If you buy in Portugal and are resident full-time in Portugal, then I do think you would be missing out on things if you keep yourself within the expat community - but, as you say, each to their own.

Another popular misconception (or excuse) is the "language problem". Does it help to have a good working knowledge of the language - hell yes - but many others I know get by (and get by well) on a smattering of Portuguese, English and any other languages or gestures that might help!

Obviously walking into a bar and speaking fluent French or Spanish is unlikely to get you inderstood in Portugal any more than only speaking English - but knowledge of them is likely to help (OK, Dutch, German or any scandinavian languge less so...) Also, many Portuguese understand some English from music, films, etc. but may be uncomfortable speaking at first - but in all circumstances actions speak louder than words.

As we've hinted before, up here in the Alentejo, the language - and particularly the accent - is different. My neighbour is 84 years old and a farmer. He rabbits on at 10 to the dozen and I catch 2 words in ten at best .... just about enough to get the gist. I thought it was me, until a friend from Lisbon came down and after we spent a happy afternoon drinking my neighbour's medronho, he told me that he too found it hard to follow his conversation! But I eat with my neighbours, they come to our house, we've met their family, we "chat" about local issues ..... and in all this my knowledge of Portuguese helps only a little!

I wouldn't want anyone to feel guilty - we're all here for our own reasons, but there is so much more to Portugal than the climate.

BillBullock

I agree with you Macliam, an extended holiday is a different situation but you have generalized again about the Algarve. It also contains areas which are still very Portuguese. Where we live, for example, out in the countryside, surrounded by Portuguese who speak with a very difficult dialect, not a bit like the Lisbon version of Portuguese that we were taught. There are the holiday areas of the Algarve, the areas where the over-paid footballers have their mansions, the areas like Lagos where SaffyRosie lives part-time which is a lovely town with a nice mix, rather like Tavira in the Eastern Algarve, and the unspoilt Portuguese areas with a sprinkling of expats from many nations.

When we retired here, the first priority was to have Portuguese lessons on a near one-to-one basis (my wife and I and our first, lovely Portuguese friend, Karina, who teaches English in the local schools). My wife is now very proficient and I am a little way behind in verbal Portuguese, mainly because I had the usual difficulty getting a word in edgeways when the two women were talking! It is indeed essential to tackle the "language problem"; if you start off in Portuguese, you get a better reception from the locals and they sometimes slow down to help you out. Annoyingly, some break into perfect English which doesn't help my progression in Portuguese.

What we will not do is speak German or French to our other expat friends. They get English or Portuguese from us and that's that! At our age, we can only cope with two languages.

GeniB

Ha ha Bill No need to feel sorry for me. I am super privilidged i know.

I think it might be the 5 yr itch. Age.Or that 'third country' feel where your not sure where you want to be or belong. The language has proved more of a stumbling block than I anticipated. I learned Dutch (enough for a reasonable conversation) within three yrs. Five yrs down the line here and i can barely say a sentence. (OH on the other hand is virtually fluent darn him)

I realise that communication is pretty important to me . Heh ho back to the lessons in the New Year then.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all...

GeniB

Hi SaffyRosie I think from your post you have found the ideal solution for you . why would you fell judged? It suits your circumstances for now. As you say maybe not forever.,You could move on. We on the other hand jumped in and became permanent residents.Maybe in haste because we moved from another country that required us to register our new address within six months(long complicated story) We do not have another property in the UK . We therefore had no idea that it was pretty common here to flit between the UK and Portugal. Or be 'Snow Birds' and come only in the winter. (agree it's a lovely term and in no way should be seen as derogatory) It was quite a big surprise and pretty disconcerting to find your neighbours and new friends disappearing for weeks or even months on end.You must admit you get the better end of the bargain there

macliam

Sorry Bill, he who generalises generally lies

However, most people tend to think of the coastal strip as being "The Algarve", although I know that there are areas that have escaped such commercialization - and I like Tavira and Olhao amongst other areas.

But, when you say "dialect", I think you mean people's accents and ways of speaking - like my neighour. Portuguese is a pretty homogenous language and there's little real difference north to south (with the exception of those who still speak Mirandes) ... and even Lisbon has it's own way of speaking, with "pa" (short for rapaz, boy) tacked onto questions, etc. It's like English and Irish English - back home, if you ask for bacon, it's boiled, if it's fried it's rashers!

Anyway, keep plugging away and enjoying your time - you'd not want to be in England today!

GeniB

There is quite an odd dialect difference in the Algarve in that they swallow the ends of their words. It's very hard to understand what they are saying if you are listening to locals converse.
Like the Dutch, in those places where we are likely to be attempting to speak Portuguese ,shops,cafes,restaurants etc.The staff speak fluent or very good english and will immediately steer you into speaking it.
It's a bizarre thing but I was one of the few in my circle to like the sound of Dutch (as opposed to the harder German) I wonder if it made it easier for me to learn the language? Portuguese ,as spoken here in the Algarve is all 'babble' to me. It is different in Lisbon and easier to understand imo.

macliam

"Swallowing" parts of words is very common all over Portugal, but more educated people or those used to speaking to foreigners might do it less. Portuguese is very like English in this respect - words are pronounced according to context - for example "Estou" should be pronounced "eh-STOO" but is normally pronounced "'Shtoh" apart from when answering the phone when it becomes "'Toh" almost universally.

Here in the Alentejo they use some words far closer to Spanish than the "normal" Portuguese - but then, they have a massive shared border. Equally, they appear to have multiple names for the same thing, but actually they describe a tree at different stages of growth, etc. - that's hard to decode! - and a horse is almost always an "Egua" rather than "Cavalo" -straight from Latin! Plus, you must remember that you are in the Algarve, not Portugal - no slight intended, but the Kings were always titled "King of Portugal and the Algarve" and my wife (from Lisbon) looks on the algarvios as being "different".

In Lisbon, I find people use a lot of popular constructs taken from TV adverts etc. - i.e. "Es sempre a mesma machina, pa" "You're always the same machine, mate" which means "you never change", but comes from some old TV advert...... But conversational language is never like lessons - once your ear attunes, Portuguese is far more homogenous than English in the UK - no real equivalent of Geordies, or Makems or Glaswegians - or Irish, here.

By the way, when my father first ventured to the UK in 1941, he stayed in Bath. There he always recalled being called "my cocker" or "my lover" by everyone, male or female - and one expression he never forgot was "Thee casn't kist likes thee coulds't cas't?" - you don't kiss like you used to! Some contructs were still straight from German (or Anglo-Saxon?). As a poor Limerick boy, he found life "interesting"! Now tell me about Portuguese!!!

morpeth

I read that Dutch is the easiest of the Germanic languages for English-speakers to learn.

Geordie via Northumbrian is the real English, closer to Middle English than Modern English, or so they at least by some near the Tyne by intellectual Geordies.