Red Eric

I have to admit to being a little puzzled by the consternation this residency vs tax residency etc business causes, although I know not everybody's lives are always as simply organised as some.

In my opinion, what would apply in the majority of cases is that one would be very clearly resident in one member state and limit one's visits to any other states to the allowable 90 days at a time. I don't think anybody would come after you for exceeding the 90 days in one visit, although in Portugal you could theoretically be fined (between 400€ and 1500€) for not registering within a 30 day period after that. But if you weren't intending to stay beyond that extra 30 days, why go through the process of registering, when it implies de-registering etc in the UK or wherever? Is it not possible to limit visits to up to 90 days at a time and to under the 180-whatever days in any given year to avoid tax residence and retain complete peace of mind about where your main place of residence is and where you pay tax etc.

In my opinion, it's not worth breaching the limits to the point where you need to register unless you intend to be "properly" resident ie basing your life here and paying tax if applicable etc etc. On the other hand, I don't reckon that if you did occasionally go a bit beyond the 90 days anybody would take too much notice - certainly not while the UK is still part of the EU as the comings and goings and registrations for EU citizens are a lot more relaxed than for non-EU. As long as you didn't take the piss and live here year round, not register here for tax, claim to the UK tax authorities that you weren't living there but continue to pop back to your UK GP or hospital to use the NHS whenever you felt like it. Not that anybody would do that sort of thing of course - it's just a completely made up scenario but you get the gist.

GeniB

Getting harder for those not registered anywhere types now Eric. The Dutch having moved in with the TROIKA and demanding receipts for everything. Plus the fiscal no.. etc.Then the checks at the airport on cars with UK registration no's.. The net is closing.

Red Eric

The fiscal number in Portugal? You can have one of those without being resident - in fact you positively need one in a lot of circumstances - but there is a status indicator on your file which needs to be updated if you change from non-resident to resident or vice versa.

Good thing you mentioned that actually - I think it's been said on here fairly recently that you can no longer obtain an initial residency certificate from your Câmara without a fiscal number.

macliam

A couple of things I gleaned from a recent tax seminar here, which might be both of interest and/or concern to you....

a) Here in Portugal, tax is levied on a "family unit" and any 2 people of whatever sex or marital status who share the same fiscal address for 2 years or more can be considered a "family unit". Whether the same thing applies to applications for residence is something you might need to check....

b) It was suggested that the "90-day rule" is not a time greater than 90 consecutive days in any one visit, but a cumulative 90 days within the year. This was not my previous understanding - and seems strange, given the requirements that come with residency - as it suggests that someone might need to apply for residence here if they spend over 3 months here in a year, even though they spend more time elsewhere......

Red Eric

That sounds mighty iffy to me. This is from the SEF website : http://www.sef.pt/portal/V10/EN/aspx...&id_Linha=4351

which leaves me in absolutely no doubt that the 90 days rule applies to a single visit, of which more than one can be made in a year without a requirement to register.

I do know that when it comes to tax residence, that is calculated on cumulative days which obviously needn't be consecutive.

robodelfy

Wow, thanks for all the info everyone. It's hard to get my head around it all not knowing anything about portugal, and the future of the UK, or even my own plans!!

I have my main income off my house, which as was said before, is always taxed in the UK. So if I came to portugal and lived off that and for instance did not make any money in Portugal, then it would be fairly simple until we leave the EU. I could just register after 90 days.

But then does that mean I have to de-register in the UK, and even though I am paying rental income tax in the UK, I cannot use the NHS? Because I will not have access to health care in portugal either.

And to your earlier point Red Eric, no I would not be coming back and forth all the time. If I moved to portugal I we be there apart from a few weeks, possibly a month here and there. So I would be living in Portugal full time as far as the rules are concerned.

Red Eric

Not sure exactly how the rental income comes into it with regard to PT tax beyond the fact that the UK has first claim on it, as was stated. I'll try to remember to have a bit of a delve to find out how it might affect things if you have a mixture of incomes. And whether the NHR status would be of benefit (though it would probably be well worth applying for anyway, whether of obvious immediate benefit or not).

With regard to health care, why do you think you wouldn't have access to it in Portugal? You should do, as an EU citizen, even if you're neither working nor in receipt of a UK state pension. Some people have had problems getting registered when in that situation but it oughtn't to be the case any more and should be surmountable if it does arise.

With regard to the UK NHS, as far as I know it's still the case that it's for UK residents only and that once you're no longer resident you lose access, regardless of where you pay, or are liable for, tax.

Red Eric

OK - I've had a quick skim through on the matter of rental income if you live in PT and let property in the UK.

It looks as though any tax paid in the UK would be offset against your tax liability on that income in Portugal. The threshold at which you start paying tax in Portugal is lower (much lower!) than in the UK, so you could, by the looks of it, end up paying tax on that income here but it would depend on a number of other factors. There are various allowances that you can claim, there is the fact that you can declare your income singly or jointly with a partner or spouse etc

However, the NHR regime could come to your rescue on this at least for a period of 10 years, provided you're resident here for that long (and assuming that regime still apples when you arrive here). NHR would also free you from tax on other foreign income during that 10 years - so, for example if you have savings or investments or a pension which becomes payable during that time, it would be exempt for that period, providing the conditions were met.

Hope this helps but do bear in mind I'm no sort of professional advisor.

robodelfy

Thanks Red Eric for all the advice

I have been reading through endless forum posts and websites, and it's all a bit confusing.

My only income from the UK if I was to move to Portugal would be my house rental income. This totals about £1200, but also with the various tax deductible things, it usually ends up that I do not have to pay tax on it as it comes under the £11,000 allowance. I have been living at this community in Thailand, volunteering, so have not had another income.

So I am not sure what this means for being a resident in Portugal. Obviously I dont want to get taxed twice, or taxed more!

I was reading about the NHR regime. You say 'if I am a resident for that long'. Do you mean that if I decide to leave before the 10 years I am liable to pay tax? Or does it not work like that?

Can anyone recommend a company who I could maybe speak to about my situation, and who would have current advice about these issues? I came across Blevins Franks, not sure what they are like?

Thanks again for the help

liveaboard

Blevins Franks was bad for my financial health.
Eurofinesco works for me.
You won't be taxed twice unless you have a useless tax accountant.

macliam

doubled

Red Eric

This "taxed twice" liveaboard - does that mean (as I imagine) that you shouldn't end up paying the full amount to each country as according to their tax code for rental income but that you still might (at least theoretically) be liable to pay some tax in both countries? What I'm thinking of particularly is if the OP had enough rental income to be required to pay tax on it in the UK, could he be liable for whatever PT would charge less the amount paid in the UK? That's my vague understanding of how it works.

liveaboard

It's my understanding that the dual tax treaties are bilateral; as my rental properties are not in the UK, my experiance likely has no bearing.
Having said that, I was told that if my income were taxed where it is, I would not pay tax on that income in Portugal; regardless of the amount. Even if I paid zero!
As it is, since I am not taxed there, I pay tax as if it were Portuguese residential property.

The new tax rate is punishing; the rate isn't all that high but it's flat, punishing small landlords. And there's no deduction of tax credits, so if it's your only income [as in our case], no tax credits.

Short term holiday lets pay less tax than residential lets; a really bazar situation IMHO.

Anyway, the OP stated his property in in the UK, so someone with that experience would be better suited to advise; but always consult a professional on these matters.
The consultation cost is small and the decisions being made are large.

scot47

An interesting point - "Is it possible to be resident in two countries ?"

Red Eric

Glad to be of assistance - sharing of information is what we're generally here for

Sorry! Wasn't very clear on that, was I? No, what I mean is that it applies for a maximum period of 10 years, as long as you continue to be resident during each of those years (ie each year treated separately). As far as I know (and I admit to not being certain on this), it's granted for a continuous period - so for example if you benefitted from it for 3 years, then moved to another country for 3 years, then returned to PT it would have "lapsed" because of your absence. But no, you wouldn't owe anyone anything for the time it had applied.