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The clearing of land before the end of May?

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The clearing of land before the end of May?

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Old Apr 15th 2018 | 8:50 am
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Default Re: The clearing of land before the end of May?

Originally Posted by EMR
The azul Magpie is thought to have come on boats from Asia,
It is not an endemic European bird but a sub species of that which is commonly found in parts of Asia.
Endangered it is not.
They have since found that they are not related ... but a distinct species...
 
Old Apr 15th 2018 | 9:33 am
  #17  
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Default Re: The clearing of land before the end of May?

Originally Posted by GeniB
They have since found that they are not related ... but a distinct species...
It's a sub species, its origin is questioned, endangered it is not.
There was a recent article about it in the English language Algarve press.
In our time in Portugal have seen it spread it is certainly now the dominant species in many areas.
Like the UK magpie we are all familiar with as it's numbers grow that of smaller birds declines.
I would much rather see the return of siskins, blackcaps, waxbills, warblers, robins, tits in our Algarve garden etc and magpie numbers decline.
 
Old Apr 15th 2018 | 10:31 am
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Default Re: The clearing of land before the end of May?

Originally Posted by EMR
That people did not die in the Algarve is just good fortune.
Had you seen the fires on Monchique had they been in areas of higher population it could have been a very different picture.
Oh please! - Fires are fires, if I had petrol or gas canisters stored on my land the scrub fire coulld have had a very different outcome. But I didn't and it wasn't.

I am not saying some things should not be done - I am saying that the way this current action is being enforced is incorrect and open to interpretation by people unqualified to do so. A GNR sergeant from Lisbon and based in the local town is hardly qualified to "advise" someone in the country - and, as usual, the fine first, discuss later approach is causing people to destroy the environment for limited, if any, improvement in safety.

Charnecos (see https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charneco and select the English option) are native and distinct from the azure magpie in the Far East. It was claimed that they could become endangered due to a loss of habitat amongst the cork montados, but they are adept scavengers and their reliance on cork acorns has been substituted by other things.

Last edited by macliam; Apr 15th 2018 at 10:42 am.
 
Old Apr 15th 2018 | 11:02 am
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Default Re: The clearing of land before the end of May?

Originally Posted by macliam
Oh please! - Fires are fires, if I had petrol or gas canisters stored on my land the scrub fire coulld have had a very different outcome. But I didn't and it wasn't.

I am not saying some things should not be done - I am saying that the way this current action is being enforced is incorrect and open to interpretation by people unqualified to do so. A GNR sergeant from Lisbon and based in the local town is hardly qualified to "advise" someone in the country - and, as usual, the fine first, discuss later approach is causing people to destroy the environment for limited, if any, improvement in safety.

Charnecos (see https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charneco and select the English option) are native and distinct from the azure magpie in the Far East. It was claimed that they could become endangered due to a loss of habitat amongst the cork montados, but they are adept scavengers and their reliance on cork acorns has been substituted by other things.
If the new regulations result in fewer fires and fewer deaths then what could anyone possibly complain about.
The landowner who for years ignored us and our neighbours may not be too happy but we are all delighted and relieved that a potential danger to us and our properties has been removed,
The greater good prevailing over the rights of the individual.

Some years ago on BBC R4 there was a feature on the Algarve and reference to the then small population of azul magpie that lived around Faro.
The claim was that this population , "the Algarve one " that was limited to that area
was descended from the Asian species having arrived by boat.
One thing is sure we have seen its spread in our time in the Algarve.
We did not see them in significant numbers 10 years ago, very different to now.
 
Old Apr 15th 2018 | 12:37 pm
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Default Re: The clearing of land before the end of May?

Originally Posted by EMR
If the new regulations result in fewer fires and fewer deaths then what could anyone possibly complain about.
The landowner who for years ignored us and our neighbours may not be too happy but we are all delighted and relieved that a potential danger to us and our properties has been removed,
The greater good prevailing over the rights of the individual.

Some years ago on BBC R4 there was a feature on the Algarve and reference to the then small population of azul magpie that lived around Faro.
The claim was that this population , "the Algarve one " that was limited to that area
was descended from the Asian species having arrived by boat.
One thing is sure we have seen its spread in our time in the Algarve.
We did not see them in significant numbers 10 years ago, very different to now.
You had a result because an errant landowner was forced to do something - try to think beyond your own backyard. Stripping out all the gardens and vegetable patches in the Algarve and the Alentejo is not going to prevent fires in the midlands/north that are often deliberately set and fuelled by untended eucalyptus plantations. Forcing my aged neighbours to cut down the fruit trees in the vegetable patch they have tended for fifty years is not helping the cause. This is not "The greater good prevailing over the rights of the individual." it is the knee-jerk reaction of errant politicians to "do something" after years of ignoring the problems caused by the demands of the paper industry. Rather than educating or advising, they are using the GNR to enforce a deliberately obscure set of rules with no real right of appeal. That is no way to tackle the issue - and I predict it will have no impact on the situation around Coimbra, should the climatic conditions be the same - there may be fewer fires than last year, and fewer deaths, but not less than the average over the past n years.

The identification of the charnecos was incorrect - they have lived in the Alentejo and central Spain forever and are distinct from those in Asia. The growth in population in the Algarve and the availability of food has shifted their range ..... like the storks which no longer fly south to Africa because rubbish dumps provide them with year-round food.
 
Old Apr 15th 2018 | 7:17 pm
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Default Re: The clearing of land before the end of May?

Fruit trees are exempt, and no so are vegetable patches [or plantations]. Even hedges are ok if they're under 4 meters high.
I agree that sensible enforcement would be good, and I'm waiting to see what happens in that regard.

The willow trees that line the track behind my house are an interesting test. If the track is a road and 10 meters to each side must be clear, then the lovely strip of nature will be wiped out. If the GNR manages to figure out who owns the land; I'm not going to tell them it's me.
There are a lot of creatures living in there. This is supposedly a nature reserve.

I have some trees along the main road too. According to the rule, I should take down several big Atlantic pines; when I see a lot of compliance by other landowners, I'll get to it.

Again, some guidance by an appointed person [a fire marshal sort] would be really helpful. If they start handing out fines, we'll all just have to start dropping any tree that could possibly be considered an infraction.

The firewood pile thing is just ridiculous.
 
Old Apr 15th 2018 | 8:18 pm
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Default Re: The clearing of land before the end of May?

It's largely a (perhaps understandably) misunderstanding of the new laws by everyone from the general public to the GNR that's causing so much disruption.

For example, it's not the place of the GNR to advise anyone on anything. Their only real role is to receive the complaint from the complainant, inspect the offending land & then try to trace the landowner to tell him to cut & if they fail to do so to issue him/her with a fine & then to refer the matter back to the Camara who should have also received a copy of the complaint & if they can't trace the owner will cut to the legal limits.

As an example, we have or rather had something like 5k-7k 'offending trees' behind our house & we submitted our written complaints a few weeks ago. Firstly the GNR didn't want to accept our complaint until I explained the process & then within a week we had a visit from what might be called a pair of 'shiny new coppers' who were all in brand new uniforms & fresh out of cop school by the looks of them.

The first words out of their mouths was to tell me I was only entitled to a 50m fire band area so I then had to explain the criteria of why I was entitled to 100m + a bit more because of the upward incline of the terrain towards my house.

Within a few days, machinery magically appeared & started to clear in some areas to 120m - That could have been co-incidence but equally it could be the result of our complaint.

Clearing has now stopped & my guess is the reason for that is they've traced some owners who have cleared but were unable to trace other owners & that the Camara now has to wait for the deadline to expire before they move in & cut the rest. - But time will tell.

As for who owns the willows issue......... The Camara/GNR will almost certainly be able to trace that particular owner because it'll (presumably?) be recorded in the land registry records.

However, the good news is that willows, especially properly maintained willows almost certainly shouldn't be a problem
 
Old Apr 15th 2018 | 9:10 pm
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Default Re: The clearing of land before the end of May?

Originally Posted by liveaboard
Fruit trees are exempt, and no so are vegetable patches [or plantations]. Even hedges are ok if they're under 4 meters high.
Thanks, I'll let SWMBO know (I'm in the UK until later in the month) - as you'll see below, that goes against "advice" given.
Originally Posted by mfesharne
It's largely a (perhaps understandably) misunderstanding of the new laws by everyone from the general public to the GNR that's causing so much disruption.

For example, it's not the place of the GNR to advise anyone on anything.
That's exactly the problem, my neighbours received "friendly" advice from a passing GNR patrol (I don't think they were SEPNA, just regular bods). They said about the eucalyptus stand in front of the house (a few trees, there for over 50 years) .... I had already suggested they might need to go, but understandably my aged neighbours don't want to cut them down. Then they mentioned the fines and looked around the house, pointed out the quince and apple trees and said they were "too big"/and or "too close" to the house and would need to go. My neighbours are poor farmers - they aren't going to contact a lawyer or anyone else, they'll either do as advised (wrongly) or ignore it and run the risk of a fine. They'll probably do the latter, as to them that's all the law does - fines you for things you don't know are wrong......

The same patrol then saw my wife, told her the 5 small pine trees 20m from our house were "too close" and the hedge was "too close" and they'd need to go. All this with the regular "Don't let us come again, because next time it will be subject to a multa". We've already removed a Eucalyptus stand near to the house at a cost of over €300, but now they're complaining about the felled trunks that are "maturing"!! Arse and elbow methinks - I'm starting to think the same fatalistic way as my neighbours.

On the other hand, I'm glad that something has happened close to you. My FiL lived near Talhadas, so I'm well aware of the issues with Eucalyptus there. Apart from fruit trees, I'm not sure I ever saw anything else! Nor did I ever see anyone doing maintenance apart from felling, clearing and replanting. Near to me in Santana da Serra, a company specialising in Eucalyptus has bought up land surrounding a friend's house. Maybe they're diversifying, but I'm still expecting to see new trees planted, legal or not.
 
Old Apr 15th 2018 | 9:58 pm
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Default Re: The clearing of land before the end of May?

The willows are a tangled mess for the most part; they grow wild in the small band between the track and a small pond. a 10 meter cut would be a clear cut.
There are residences that are accessed by this track, although they're only used as holiday homes they're still human habitations. My trees are a tiny percentage of the trees bordering the track.

I'm curious if the GNR will trace the owner [in this case, me].
That would require actual work. I think they'd have to send a man to the conservatoria, access the record, get a name, and then try to find the address of that person. Just accessing the record would mean they'd have to find each plot on the cardaneta map, a process that will lead to many errors.
Since the road we live on has no name, we have no address. They can find us, but they'll have to actually try. It will take a lot more than a minute at a computer.

Multiply this times millions of rural plots in Portugal. The manpower required is quite something.

As for the GNR only reacting to complaints, I know for sure that no one complained about my neighbor, since only he or I could do so.

So given the current state of confusion, I'm just holding off a while before I fuel up the chainsaw and start chaining innocent trees to my tractor.
 
Old Apr 15th 2018 | 10:45 pm
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Default Re: The clearing of land before the end of May?

I've mentioned it before but FWIW, we are working on a website that will explain things properly & supply printable documents to enable people to make complaints to force people to cut to the legal limits etc but it's a slow job because it's a complicated subject made worse by the fact that not even the local officials seem to know what is/isn't correct & what should/shouldn't be done.
 
Old Apr 15th 2018 | 11:21 pm
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Default Re: The clearing of land before the end of May?

Originally Posted by mfesharne
I've mentioned it before but FWIW, we are working on a website that will explain things properly & supply printable documents to enable people to make complaints to force people to cut to the legal limits etc but it's a slow job because it's a complicated subject made worse by the fact that not even the local officials seem to know what is/isn't correct & what should/shouldn't be done.
Good luck! I hear what you're saying - unfortunately, Portuguese officialdom seldom says "I don't know", unless it is to their direct advantage. At all other times, rules are interpreted with or without any backing from published material - and often incorrect information is upheld even when there is evidence of error. It's just something you get used to ...... and the reason for my neighbours' fatalism. Deixe lá.......
 
Old Apr 15th 2018 | 11:48 pm
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Default Re: The clearing of land before the end of May?

To me the whole thing is a super mega bugly stuff up & in typical bureaucratic style, they've overcomplicated it to the nth degree for no good reason AND retained some parts of the old act which (if the report is to be believed) were largely to blame for these last fires being as bad as they were.

Ah well.............. I guess we have to make the most of what the new requirements are rather than what they're not.
 
Old Apr 19th 2018 | 12:16 am
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Default Re: The clearing of land before the end of May?

Originally Posted by EMR
It's a sub species, its origin is questioned, endangered it is not.
There was a recent article about it in the English language Algarve press.
In our time in Portugal have seen it spread it is certainly now the dominant species in many areas.
Like the UK magpie we are all familiar with as it's numbers grow that of smaller birds declines.
I would much rather see the return of siskins, blackcaps, waxbills, warblers, robins, tits in our Algarve garden etc and magpie numbers decline.
EMR I Don't propose to argue with what would appear to be your superior knowledge on this local species My source was the renowned journalist,writer,and acquaintance of mine Len Port...a long time resident of the Algarve. but if you know better !!!
As i have only lived here full time for a little over six yrs,I can claim no such knowledge
However my concern was not so much for the magpies,as the conservation of my tree's. Which I think I made clear
 

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