NZ Scary story - or what ?
Mar 2nd 2005, 10:22 am
#181
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 33
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
[QUOTE=lily34]I wasn't suggesting that - altho I would assume that maybe you (and your wife) aren't teaching in inner city schools? My partner teaches 9-11 year olds at inner city schools in Nottingham and according to him (and I see no reason to doubt his word), he is frequently encountering children who have poor to non existent literacy and numeracy skills.
I find it continually frustrating that there are always people who are prepared to leap into discussions with ill thought out and sometimes quite offensive remarks. I assume that you didn't mean to be rude, but actually, you were! I know several teachers who are so disillusioned with teaching in the UK, for all the reasons I put in my post. I think it has to be one of the most difficult, stressful jobs anyone can do. What I meant to highlight was that the system of education here favours neither children NOR teachers and I stand by that comment. I also don't think educational achievement can be solely measured in academic successes. I stand by that comment also, unless you can prove otherwise?
My wife and I have over 30 years of experience behind us, 8 of that in NZ (if you want to play the numbers game).
If you are suggesting that numeracy/literacy skills are higher in NZ than the UK then you clearly did not bother to read the articles.
Blunt I may be but to the point I thought.
My comments were simply to redress the balance you sought to bring by denigrating the UK's educational system whilst not actually having much of a viewpoint (or experience) of NZ. Fair comment?
BOTH systems have their good and bad but hand on heart I can say that I prefer the English model for all its pitfalls. I thoroughly enjoyed my teaching experiences in NZ and met some wonderful teachers. But the same goes for here.
Finally, I think you will find that there are teachers in NZ who are also disillusioned, by the paperwork, the behaviour issues, the curriculum overload etc. If your hubby was sick of paperwork in the UK then he won't enjoy NZ either. It's a fact of teaching.
I find it continually frustrating that there are always people who are prepared to leap into discussions with ill thought out and sometimes quite offensive remarks. I assume that you didn't mean to be rude, but actually, you were! I know several teachers who are so disillusioned with teaching in the UK, for all the reasons I put in my post. I think it has to be one of the most difficult, stressful jobs anyone can do. What I meant to highlight was that the system of education here favours neither children NOR teachers and I stand by that comment. I also don't think educational achievement can be solely measured in academic successes. I stand by that comment also, unless you can prove otherwise?
My wife and I have over 30 years of experience behind us, 8 of that in NZ (if you want to play the numbers game).
If you are suggesting that numeracy/literacy skills are higher in NZ than the UK then you clearly did not bother to read the articles.
Blunt I may be but to the point I thought.
My comments were simply to redress the balance you sought to bring by denigrating the UK's educational system whilst not actually having much of a viewpoint (or experience) of NZ. Fair comment?
BOTH systems have their good and bad but hand on heart I can say that I prefer the English model for all its pitfalls. I thoroughly enjoyed my teaching experiences in NZ and met some wonderful teachers. But the same goes for here.
Finally, I think you will find that there are teachers in NZ who are also disillusioned, by the paperwork, the behaviour issues, the curriculum overload etc. If your hubby was sick of paperwork in the UK then he won't enjoy NZ either. It's a fact of teaching.
Mar 2nd 2005, 10:28 am
#182
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 33
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
Originally Posted by kiwijetpilot
NZtoUK
You have to be a little careful when using figures from groups trying to make a point. Let do a quick cut and paste from an earlier post:
KS
And you conveniently forget to mention that in NZ, we don't pay National Insurance. I'd rather pay for the odd visit to the doctor than say goodbye to a proportion of my income. In fact I's prefer a variation on the US insurance system.
If you had bothered to read my post correctly, you would see that I mentioned that they were in both places. However, the point you were making was that you believed NZ's participation level would preclude assistance from the US in the future, which I clearly demonstrated was not the case. Next...
Well, the same serious problems exist in the UK, but there the labs are producing heroin and crack. Little assignment for you: compare and contrast the relative effects of heroin, cocaine, crack and P. How dangerous is P? discuss.
I hope you are not seriously suggesting that NZ has a drug problem even a quarter as bad as the UK... please tell me you are not that naive...
Finally, something we aren't better than the UK at, just the "same as". NZ is the same as the rest of the western world. So what?
Not nearly as few as in the UK. It is also likely that we will see an adjustment down in NZ over the next five years (as has already happened in Auckland).
By the way, do you know what one of the main drivers of house price increases has been? Immigrants and foreign investors pushing prices up post-9/11.
Number of deaths per 10,000 motor vehicles:
United Kingdom: 1.2
New Zealand: 1.5
(http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ats_031683.pdf )
Very high proportion?
Nobody is making out that NZ is paradise and the UK is hell, it is so subjective that the argument is pointless.
However, it is important that misinformation and incorrect assumptions are challenged. People who visit this forum are trying to make a very important life decision. They need facts (which is why everything I assert is backed up with a reference to another document). They certainly don't need the bitter and twisted tales of disappointment, based on nothing more than personal bias. They also don't need a rose-tinted, everything-is-perfect view either.
The problem I have with people such as yourself, KS, and SAexpat, is that in most of your posts on this thread you have leapt to a conclusion without actually checking the facts. I can understand why my correcting you gets annoying, but if you brought a balanced and objective view in the first place, I wouldn't have to.
Can we just stick to the facts?
You have to be a little careful when using figures from groups trying to make a point. Let do a quick cut and paste from an earlier post:
KS
And you conveniently forget to mention that in NZ, we don't pay National Insurance. I'd rather pay for the odd visit to the doctor than say goodbye to a proportion of my income. In fact I's prefer a variation on the US insurance system.
If you had bothered to read my post correctly, you would see that I mentioned that they were in both places. However, the point you were making was that you believed NZ's participation level would preclude assistance from the US in the future, which I clearly demonstrated was not the case. Next...
Well, the same serious problems exist in the UK, but there the labs are producing heroin and crack. Little assignment for you: compare and contrast the relative effects of heroin, cocaine, crack and P. How dangerous is P? discuss.
I hope you are not seriously suggesting that NZ has a drug problem even a quarter as bad as the UK... please tell me you are not that naive...
Finally, something we aren't better than the UK at, just the "same as". NZ is the same as the rest of the western world. So what?
Not nearly as few as in the UK. It is also likely that we will see an adjustment down in NZ over the next five years (as has already happened in Auckland).
By the way, do you know what one of the main drivers of house price increases has been? Immigrants and foreign investors pushing prices up post-9/11.
Number of deaths per 10,000 motor vehicles:
United Kingdom: 1.2
New Zealand: 1.5
(http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...ats_031683.pdf )
Very high proportion?
Nobody is making out that NZ is paradise and the UK is hell, it is so subjective that the argument is pointless.
However, it is important that misinformation and incorrect assumptions are challenged. People who visit this forum are trying to make a very important life decision. They need facts (which is why everything I assert is backed up with a reference to another document). They certainly don't need the bitter and twisted tales of disappointment, based on nothing more than personal bias. They also don't need a rose-tinted, everything-is-perfect view either.
The problem I have with people such as yourself, KS, and SAexpat, is that in most of your posts on this thread you have leapt to a conclusion without actually checking the facts. I can understand why my correcting you gets annoying, but if you brought a balanced and objective view in the first place, I wouldn't have to.
Can we just stick to the facts?
Mar 2nd 2005, 10:51 am
#183
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 906
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
Hi to all, don't usually post on this thread.
Just to say that as a kiwi currently living in Nottingham (otherwise known as gun capital of UK) I feel very sad and quite defensive that so many of you seem to dislike NZ.
My son has just returned from Wellington after a visit to see if he wants to go to uni there and guess what he loved the place.
We may or may not all return at the end of this year, otherwise my son goes back by himself.
I would love to be returning and buying my lovely new house in Eastbourne with views over the harbour. And guess when I do
I will put in CENTRAL HEATING. Funnily enough for such a backward country, It does exisit.
KAZ
Just to say that as a kiwi currently living in Nottingham (otherwise known as gun capital of UK) I feel very sad and quite defensive that so many of you seem to dislike NZ.
My son has just returned from Wellington after a visit to see if he wants to go to uni there and guess what he loved the place.
We may or may not all return at the end of this year, otherwise my son goes back by himself.
I would love to be returning and buying my lovely new house in Eastbourne with views over the harbour. And guess when I do
I will put in CENTRAL HEATING. Funnily enough for such a backward country, It does exisit.KAZ
Mar 2nd 2005, 11:51 am
#184
Banned
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Waikanae, New Zealand
Posts: 267
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
Kayser old bean
Look, if you want to play this game, you have to play by the rules. 
Your assertion was that New Zealanders were leaving in droves for Australia.
The documents you quote indicate how many New Zealanders left NZ on a permanent or long term basis (PLT) to go SOMEWHERE ELSE (not specifically Australia).. They also indicate how many people (citizenship not defined) left for Australia.
They DO NOT say how many NZ citizens left for Australia. Well, I could be wrong, so please just cut and paste the bit that says "xxx New Zealanders left permanently for Australia".
Facts, you see. Very important.
I'm counting on it...
NZtoUK
I don't really understand that, there seems to be a bit of a grammar problem... all I said is that you have to be careful when using figures from groups trying to make a point. I am not confused in the slightest.
In this case, you were using figures from a publication put out by the Maxim Institute, and quoted in the NZ Herald.
The Maxim Institute is a right wing, politically motivated think-tank. They are actively seeking to help rid the country of the scourge that is the Labour government (for which I applaud them).
Now one way they can do that is to paint various NZ core institutions as being ineffective, which makes the government look bad. As has been noted, the figures quoted are old, and aren't backed up by the PIRLS figures quoted elsewhere.
So all I am saying is, beware of quoting what a pressure group says as gospel, it ain't necessarily so.
Having said all that, I have a lot of time for the Maxim Institute.
I think the figures showed a net INCREASE again in Kiwis going or didn't you read that bit. So the number of Kiwis born here and living here is going DOWN.
Your assertion was that New Zealanders were leaving in droves for Australia.
The documents you quote indicate how many New Zealanders left NZ on a permanent or long term basis (PLT) to go SOMEWHERE ELSE (not specifically Australia).. They also indicate how many people (citizenship not defined) left for Australia.
They DO NOT say how many NZ citizens left for Australia. Well, I could be wrong, so please just cut and paste the bit that says "xxx New Zealanders left permanently for Australia".
Facts, you see. Very important.
Will much have changed in NZ by then ? What do you think...
NZtoUK
Why have you lumped in my views on NZ education with the views of others entirely unrelated? I'm sorry you have a problem with my posts as I have leapt to conclusions without checking the facts. I assume you are confused.
In this case, you were using figures from a publication put out by the Maxim Institute, and quoted in the NZ Herald.
The Maxim Institute is a right wing, politically motivated think-tank. They are actively seeking to help rid the country of the scourge that is the Labour government (for which I applaud them).
Now one way they can do that is to paint various NZ core institutions as being ineffective, which makes the government look bad. As has been noted, the figures quoted are old, and aren't backed up by the PIRLS figures quoted elsewhere.
So all I am saying is, beware of quoting what a pressure group says as gospel, it ain't necessarily so.
Having said all that, I have a lot of time for the Maxim Institute.
Mar 2nd 2005, 5:08 pm
#185
Just Joined
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 21
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
Originally Posted by Grayling
Good luck then
G
G
Mar 2nd 2005, 5:16 pm
#186
Just Joined
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 21
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
[QUOTE=NZtoUK]
still bored with all the bickering.
I do think you're right - the UK education system is still one of the best in the world. And that is largely due to people such as yourselves, who work to make it so I take my hat off to teachers, it isn't a job that particularly appeals to me - its way too stressful, and if you read another of my posts on this thread, you'll see what I do for a living! I just wanted to make that point really. We're both extremely disillusioned with the UK (can ya guess? 
) and I suppose it comes out a lot in how I see things here.
peace to everyone (and a large G 'n T)
Originally Posted by lily34
I wasn't suggesting that - altho I would assume that maybe you (and your wife) aren't teaching in inner city schools? My partner teaches 9-11 year olds at inner city schools in Nottingham and according to him (and I see no reason to doubt his word), he is frequently encountering children who have poor to non existent literacy and numeracy skills.
I find it continually frustrating that there are always people who are prepared to leap into discussions with ill thought out and sometimes quite offensive remarks. I assume that you didn't mean to be rude, but actually, you were! I know several teachers who are so disillusioned with teaching in the UK, for all the reasons I put in my post. I think it has to be one of the most difficult, stressful jobs anyone can do. What I meant to highlight was that the system of education here favours neither children NOR teachers and I stand by that comment. I also don't think educational achievement can be solely measured in academic successes. I stand by that comment also, unless you can prove otherwise?
My wife and I have over 30 years of experience behind us, 8 of that in NZ (if you want to play the numbers game).
If you are suggesting that numeracy/literacy skills are higher in NZ than the UK then you clearly did not bother to read the articles.
Blunt I may be but to the point I thought.
My comments were simply to redress the balance you sought to bring by denigrating the UK's educational system whilst not actually having much of a viewpoint (or experience) of NZ. Fair comment?
BOTH systems have their good and bad but hand on heart I can say that I prefer the English model for all its pitfalls. I thoroughly enjoyed my teaching experiences in NZ and met some wonderful teachers. But the same goes for here.
Finally, I think you will find that there are teachers in NZ who are also disillusioned, by the paperwork, the behaviour issues, the curriculum overload etc. If your hubby was sick of paperwork in the UK then he won't enjoy NZ either. It's a fact of teaching.
I find it continually frustrating that there are always people who are prepared to leap into discussions with ill thought out and sometimes quite offensive remarks. I assume that you didn't mean to be rude, but actually, you were! I know several teachers who are so disillusioned with teaching in the UK, for all the reasons I put in my post. I think it has to be one of the most difficult, stressful jobs anyone can do. What I meant to highlight was that the system of education here favours neither children NOR teachers and I stand by that comment. I also don't think educational achievement can be solely measured in academic successes. I stand by that comment also, unless you can prove otherwise?
My wife and I have over 30 years of experience behind us, 8 of that in NZ (if you want to play the numbers game).
If you are suggesting that numeracy/literacy skills are higher in NZ than the UK then you clearly did not bother to read the articles.
Blunt I may be but to the point I thought.
My comments were simply to redress the balance you sought to bring by denigrating the UK's educational system whilst not actually having much of a viewpoint (or experience) of NZ. Fair comment?
BOTH systems have their good and bad but hand on heart I can say that I prefer the English model for all its pitfalls. I thoroughly enjoyed my teaching experiences in NZ and met some wonderful teachers. But the same goes for here.
Finally, I think you will find that there are teachers in NZ who are also disillusioned, by the paperwork, the behaviour issues, the curriculum overload etc. If your hubby was sick of paperwork in the UK then he won't enjoy NZ either. It's a fact of teaching.
still bored with all the bickering. I do think you're right - the UK education system is still one of the best in the world. And that is largely due to people such as yourselves, who work to make it so
I take my hat off to teachers, it isn't a job that particularly appeals to me - its way too stressful, and if you read another of my posts on this thread, you'll see what I do for a living! I just wanted to make that point really. We're both extremely disillusioned with the UK (can ya guess? ) and I suppose it comes out a lot in how I see things here.peace to everyone (and a large G 'n T)
Mar 2nd 2005, 5:28 pm
#187
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Kapiti Coast, New Zealand
Posts: 63
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
Originally Posted by kiwijetpilot
Kayser old bean
Look, if you want to play this game, you have to play by the rules.
Your assertion was that New Zealanders were leaving in droves for Australia.
The documents you quote indicate how many New Zealanders left NZ on a permanent or long term basis (PLT) to go SOMEWHERE ELSE (not specifically Australia).. They also indicate how many people (citizenship not defined) left for Australia.
They DO NOT say how many NZ citizens left for Australia. Well, I could be wrong, so please just cut and paste the bit that says "xxx New Zealanders left permanently for Australia".
Facts, you see. Very important.
Look, if you want to play this game, you have to play by the rules.
Your assertion was that New Zealanders were leaving in droves for Australia.
The documents you quote indicate how many New Zealanders left NZ on a permanent or long term basis (PLT) to go SOMEWHERE ELSE (not specifically Australia).. They also indicate how many people (citizenship not defined) left for Australia.
They DO NOT say how many NZ citizens left for Australia. Well, I could be wrong, so please just cut and paste the bit that says "xxx New Zealanders left permanently for Australia".
Facts, you see. Very important.
http://www.immi.gov.au/statistics/st...newzealand.pdf
Includes
The latest census in 2001 recorded 355,680 New Zealand-born persons in Australia and increase of 22 per cent from the 1996 census.
Just facts……
K.S.
Let me know if you are having problems with Google. Yours seems to have some Kiwi, rose coloured filter on it
Last edited by Kayser Soze; Mar 2nd 2005 at 5:31 pm.
Mar 2nd 2005, 6:34 pm
#188
Banned
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Waikanae, New Zealand
Posts: 267
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
Ah, introducing new information. So we can safely assume that the original documents you quoted did not, in fact, make your case.
So... let's see, that's 64,180 people, divide by 5 (years between censuses), that gives us 12,836 per year... express this as a percentage of the NZ population (4,090,413)... that's about one person in 319, or less than 0.3%.
Wow.
So less than 0.3% of the population, on average, leave for Australia every year. Amazing.
Yes, it really is a drove. 0.3% of the population. I am deeply concerned...
Shall we have the discussion about how to interpret figures correctly? No. Better not.
0.3%. Scary.
Quick, get some more Brits over here before we run out of people...
So... let's see, that's 64,180 people, divide by 5 (years between censuses), that gives us 12,836 per year... express this as a percentage of the NZ population (4,090,413)... that's about one person in 319, or less than 0.3%.
Wow.
So less than 0.3% of the population, on average, leave for Australia every year. Amazing.
Yes, it really is a drove. 0.3% of the population. I am deeply concerned...
Shall we have the discussion about how to interpret figures correctly? No. Better not.
0.3%. Scary.
Quick, get some more Brits over here before we run out of people...
Mar 2nd 2005, 7:00 pm
#189
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2001
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 470
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
And as for population growth as a whole, I investigated that a year ago. Over the previous decade or so, NZ's population grew at a much faster rate than the UK's (I think it was about twice the rate).
I looked at a lot of figures before deciding to make the move (about a year and a half ago) and NZ came out tops in all of the factors that mattered to us.
I looked at a lot of figures before deciding to make the move (about a year and a half ago) and NZ came out tops in all of the factors that mattered to us.
Mar 2nd 2005, 8:04 pm
#190
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Kapiti Coast, New Zealand
Posts: 63
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
Originally Posted by kiwijetpilot
Ah, introducing new information. So we can safely assume that the original documents you quoted did not, in fact, make your case.
So... let's see, that's 64,180 people, divide by 5 (years between censuses), that gives us 12,836 per year... express this as a percentage of the NZ population (4,090,413)... that's about one person in 319, or less than 0.3%.
Wow.
So less than 0.3% of the population, on average, leave for Australia every year. Amazing.
Yes, it really is a drove. 0.3% of the population. I am deeply concerned...
Shall we have the discussion about how to interpret figures correctly? No. Better not.
0.3%. Scary.
Quick, get some more Brits over here before we run out of people...
So... let's see, that's 64,180 people, divide by 5 (years between censuses), that gives us 12,836 per year... express this as a percentage of the NZ population (4,090,413)... that's about one person in 319, or less than 0.3%.
Wow.
So less than 0.3% of the population, on average, leave for Australia every year. Amazing.
Yes, it really is a drove. 0.3% of the population. I am deeply concerned...
Shall we have the discussion about how to interpret figures correctly? No. Better not.
0.3%. Scary.
Quick, get some more Brits over here before we run out of people...
You can interpret figures any way you want. For example...
355680 (not an insignificant number I'm sure you'll agree) kiwis in Oz.
Around 10% of New Zealands own population.
More than the entire population of New Zealand's own capital city.
An increase of 22% in 5 years.
Every 3 years nearly 40,000 leave for Australia alone (equal to the entire population of the Kapiti Coast upping and leaving for Australia)
You thought they weren't going - seems the Australian government disagrees and the FACTS prove otherwise.
Don't think you need to worry about getting more Brits in though. They've seen the pics of Bay of Islands and Queenstown. They'll keep coming along with the Chinese.
355680 Kiwis (as of 2001!) know better and have sought out a better life.
K.S.
Mar 2nd 2005, 10:04 pm
#191
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2001
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 470
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
Originally Posted by Kayser Soze
355680 Kiwis (as of 2001!) know better and have sought out a better life.
Mar 2nd 2005, 10:38 pm
#192
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Kapiti Coast, New Zealand
Posts: 63
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
Originally Posted by sofistek
And yet the population has increased with every census since 1858. In the 10 years between 1991 and 2001, the population increased by over 11%. In the same time, the UK's population increased by only 2.5%. So I was wrong, NZ's population hasn't increased at double the rate of the UK's but at more than 4 times the rate. I've known a few New Zealanders in the last few years, who came to the UK for experience, and all have now returned there, except one, who is planning to return.
Says more about the nature of migration than about either country.
What can I say...give it a go and make your own mind up.
I have heard that UK is so bad now some folk go over from NZ and stay for as little as 16 (sixteen) years.
K.S.
Mar 2nd 2005, 10:42 pm
#193
Here in Dunedin
Joined: May 2003
Location: Dunedin
Posts: 1,975
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
Originally Posted by Kayser Soze
355680 Kiwis (as of 2001!) know better and have sought out a better life.
K.S.
K.S.
Is it such a surprise that about 9% of kiwis live there at any time?
I think not. Its not like moving from the Uk to France, or UK to NZ for that matter.
That the number of Aussies moving the other way to NZ is very small - well thats absolutely perfect, and long may it continue.
Now to stop the rest of the hordes trying to get in...have I told anyone how cold the NZ houses are, and the price of electricity is monstrous, and earthquakes, volcanoes, sharks, wetas, maori gangs, swollen rivers, floodprone, cities, third world roading, 'p' houses, spiders, labour govt, child poverty, no pensions, surgery waiting lists, dangerous rips, ummm....crap baked beans.........(its getting hard now)......spiders............variable weather....................................Aucklan d drivers....................labour govt
...........Coro St on just when I want to watch some decent TV!
Mar 2nd 2005, 11:46 pm
#194
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
I have to apologise for a mistake in my list of numbers which I posted last night. I listed 46735689 when it should have been 46735687. I am sorry if my mistake led anyone to accidentally tear up their application for permanent residence. When I first saw the number I had to immediately isolate it in a numerical isolation tank and alert the digital police. Fortunately the digital police are very efficient in the UK (not like their sloppy analogue cousins in NZ) and managed to avert an 'Integer Crisis' from developing.
This morning, after our arithmetic emergency was fading into a conceptual divergence, the ever efficient digital police informed me of the catastrophic error of 4.279385e-6%. Well!! imagine my relief (all in my pants too).
Yes! We can still go to NZ and enjoy a thoroughly analogue life.
Scan that in yer bar code reader.
If I get stuck for statistics I can always use negative roots. (The mathematicians will know what I mean & There does seem to be a high proportion of bitter mathematicians around here!)
Ali
This morning, after our arithmetic emergency was fading into a conceptual divergence, the ever efficient digital police informed me of the catastrophic error of 4.279385e-6%. Well!! imagine my relief (all in my pants too).
Yes! We can still go to NZ and enjoy a thoroughly analogue life.
Scan that in yer bar code reader.
If I get stuck for statistics I can always use negative roots. (The mathematicians will know what I mean & There does seem to be a high proportion of bitter mathematicians around here!)
Ali
Mar 3rd 2005, 7:39 pm
#195
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2001
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 470
Re: NZ Scary story - or what ?
Originally Posted by Kayser Soze
Yes and I came out to NZ first in the 1980's and all the UK expats who I got to meet at that time, enjoyed the experience and have now gone back to UK.
Says more about the nature of migration than about either country.
Says more about the nature of migration than about either country.