deedee

[QUOTE=lily34]it seems to me that things in NZ are often as difficult as they are here in the Uk - something that shouldn't really be a surprise. Just like any other modern, industrialised country, it has its problems with employment, wages, cost of living, fuel, culture, ethnocentrism...

ok, it isn't paradise. But to those of you hotfooting it back here to the 'good life', let me give you guys a wake up call. The UK is one of the most expensive, overcrowded and polluted country's in the world to live in. We pay one of the highest income taxes, we pay about 20% more for ALL consumer goods than ANYWHERE else in Europe, house prices have rocketed beyond all belief, falsly buoyed up by the greedy 'buy to let' owners, all seeking to be their own little Donald Trump and extend their property 'portfolio' at the expense of 1st time buyers. The average price of a house now in the UK is £167,000.

Our roads are the most congested in Europe - when was the last time ANYONE on this forum who's still in the UK had a hassle free long distance journey? Salaries are higher than in NZ but if everything costs 20 times more then its a bit of a moot point really, isn't it? Crime is getting out of control in the cities - particularly violent crimes like gun crime, alcohol fueled assaults etc. The centre of virtually every large town and definitely every city are no go areas at weekends now, because they are full, I repeat FULL of incredibly pissed people. Drive through any city centre at midnight on a Friday or Saturday and you are guaranteed to see not one or a few but MANY incidents of drunken mayhem - from throwing up in the road to vicious street fighting between men, and women. The green areas between the towns and cities are gradually being eaten up by developers building houses - the government has recently ok'd a massive scale building plan in the south east. Over 250,000 new houses are planned for rural Hertfordshire and Essex. And people have to live somewhere obviously but how many 1st time buyers do you think will be seeing any of the properties on these new developments? At an average of £140,000 a pop, not many!

Don't even get me started on the UK's ethnocentric culture! and as for council tax...We're all so busy pursuing the consumer dream here that people aren't noticing their huge credit card bills, their massive home improvement loans, their enormous mortgages. Many are enjoying the fantastic shopping opportunities, but their borrowing huge sums to do it with. The national debt is huge now, bigger than its ever been and if we don't pay for it now, our children will.




Ah real feelings, just like the ones we had before selling up and coming to NZ!
I don't really need reminding why we came here, but i'm so very glad we did.Many people have tried to cast doom and gloom onto NZ and the people coming here, especially recently.Well i'm not going back to blighty for any money or any reason,not when this place is just so good.

KiwiDollie

[QUOTE=deedee] I agree with pretty much everything you say above.

I'm hoping to be able to agree with the last paragraph in about 6 months time!!!!!

Cheers

Kayser Soze

[QUOTE=deedee]
More Daily Mail readers!!!

I wonder just how many people actually experience half of the things mentioned?

How many people have a real experience in UK of inner cities after dark with drunken street fights or problems with other ethnic groups or gypsies?

Gun crime? All over Britain? But how many ever experience it?

The crap NHS? - How many people have successful treatment everyday? Shall we mention them? No lets focus on one old lady left for a few hours in a corridor.

I was back there just over a year ago (selling a BuyToLet which I knew would shortly be surplus due to the impending 'house price correction' ). No one threw up on me, shot me or forced me to learn the Koran. My car wasn't scratched or stolen and I completed many good, long distance journies in Essex, Suffolk, Wilts, Somerset etc

Pure hyperbole of the mass media, particularly the right wing press and the UK public have bought it 100%.

Will be back again in just over 4 weeks perhaps I'd better pack sandwiches if prices have got so high

K.S.

scottish

PMSL... totally agree with you there.

I have never once, touch wood lol, been a victim of crime, witnessed crime or had any probs at all. I have worked in some of the worst housing estates in Scotland and again had no problems whatsoever. Maybe I am lucky, who knows!!! all I do know is I am lucky to be home.

lily34

I think thats one of the worst insults I've ever received!! I am not, nor have ever been, a daily mail reader (probably not the worst, but pretty damn bad). What I am, in fact, is a 34 year old woman who was born and raised in London and currently living in Nottingham for the past 10 years. I have worked for 10 years as a residential social worker, in a probation hostel, a night shelter and a childrens home. I'm currently working as a criminal justice drugs worker, in police stations and courts in Nottingham, and in the community.

I think that covers my eligibility to talk about rising crime in the UK, (particularly violent gun crime, which is, in fact, a problem of increasing seriousness in ALL our cities in the UK over the past 2-5 years.) and my NON membership of right wing, tory votin', middle englanders.

I never even mentioned the NHS. Actually, I think the NHS is in better shape than its ever been, due to the 1% increase from our NI - which I was glad to pay, by the way, as I feel money into public services is money well spent.

There are dozens of gun related in incidents in Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Nottingham and London every month. This is not information that I gleaned from the Daily Mail, or the Express or any other newspaper, but from my own professional experiences, those of my colleagues in the criminal justice and other non statutory fields. Many, thankfully, do not end in death, but some, sadly, do. Generally, I have found that there are many 'liberals' who think that such issues are only media hysteria, and are able to do so because, while occasionally driving through a city, they don't really see any of what goes on. All that I can say to you, KS, is be very thankful that you aren't driving home every night to an area like some of the areas my clients live in. And its unlikely you will ever encounter them, as few of them are able to keep a roof over their head at all, let alone have a mortagage, 'by to let' or otherwise.

My point is, that I can distinctly remember, when I first started working in this field 10 years, you didn't GET drive by shootings, except very occasionally, in a very few extremely rough areas of the country. Now it happens nearly every week in certain areas here in Nottingham, and, I understand, London, Birmingham and Liverpool as well. I agree that there is a lot of media hyperbole regarding crime; I equally think, however, that there are many who, living quite sheltered from some of the increasing problems, are able to dismiss them as 'hysteria'. Forgive me for saying so, but it seems from your comments that this may apply to yourself?

I think your remarks were neither particularly well thought out or presented, and were a little flippant. What I suggest you do when you're back in a few weeks is book a stay in either the Meadows or St Ann's area, here in Nottingham. Or come to work with me one night at the Bridewell police station in the city centre. Perhaps you'd go home with a slightly revised opinion, who knows?

sofistek

KS, you can believe what you will. I've had 3 cars stolen and 2 broken into. I've experienced some on the inefficiencies of the NHS, though it's getting better (if you survive MRSA). Violent crime is on the increase.

It's not all made up, but if you want to believe that, that's fine. Just don't expect everyone else to ignore the down sides.

Deb+Chris

That must be a very stressful job, I can hardly blame you for feeling 'down' on the UK. What will you be doing in NZ just out of curiosity?

kiwijetpilot

Our friend KS is rather prone to making statements without checking the facts first, so let me bring a little balance.

On the subject of health, UK waiting times are demonstrably longer than they are in NZ, and the UK system itself less user-friendly - but don't take my word for it, check out this:

http://www.cmwf.org/usr_doc/2003_IHP..._Chartpack.ppt

There are numerous other stats, but to tell the truth I really haven't got the time to run around correcting all these errrors. Anyone who wants the truth should google their way to happiness!!

Gun crime - here's a snippet from the BBC website, 12 January 2003:

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...24/nguns24.xml

The population of Merseyside is 1.4 million or roughly a third of the population of New Zealand. Some simple maths - 57x3=171. Now how many shootings have you seen on the news in NZ over the last year or so?

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2413223.stm

In contrast:

Number of violent crimes per 100,000 of population -

England - 1390
NZ- 1204.5

Source: http://www.justice.govt.nz/pubs/repo...nt%20crime.pdf

Now the above figures include suicide, which is classed as offence; so you need to read this too:

Source: www.pha.org.nz/docs/Advocacy/ copies%20of%20currently%20active%20policies/GunControl/Guncontrol02FINAL.doc

Sadly it is hard to find much info about gun crime in NZ - mainly because there isn't much of it.

Well I can't be bothered doing any more of this, the point is that, like many doom and gloom comments made here, there is no truth to the assertions made.

I think perhaps the best thing to do is be glad that these folk have left our shores, whilst continuing to encourage those who seek a better life.

Damages

No we don't have any experience of after dark Britain because most of us are unprepared to take the risk. I have to run the gauntlet of abusive drunks and junkies whenever I go to the corner shop in the evening (or the daytime for that matter!). Many of our neighbours have been mugged. The local park is bristling with discarded needles, broken glass and marauding disaffected teens hanging around with adult junkies. Our children are scared to go and play in the park because of the number of hooligans charging around in stolen cars and motorbikes. I phoned the police recently to try to take some action regarding the motorcycle problem in the park and was told that they were not sure if it was against the law or not and suggested that I call the local council to check before they would take any action. Fantastic!!!! We live now in a culture which rewards criminal behaviour and penalises the victim. A kid broke into the local Army Barracks recently and injured himself by setting off some fireworks held for a display and the MOD was sued for endangering the child following the arson attack that the child perpetrated!!!


Well I walked over an extensive blood stain in Green Lanes following a 'drive by' the previous night. I regularly see police notices asking for witnesses for gun crimes in our local area as well as muggings, beatings and murders. A friend of my Ex-partner had her husband stabbed to death in the alley behind their home. He had just returned from the local shop, and we know of someone who was stabbed while making a call in a phone booth! It ain't just gun crime!!

No I haven't experienced these crimes but statistically I must be due by now.

Just for the record in a country which struggles to house its population with affordable housing I think the 'buy to let' brigade should be forced to pay through the nose for their privelege. I think it is highly immoral to own a house that you don't live in. Especially in a place as small and overcrowded as the UK. As far as I am concerned you, sir/madam, are part of the problem and therefore part of the reason that some of us wish to escape this overpriced trap. Private landlords are responsible for artificially driving the ridiculous housing price hike which is effectively making any chances for our children to have their own place equate to zero. The housing market here is reminiscent of the Pyramid sales/chain letter mentality where few but the intensely greedy benefit and at the cost of everyone else.

Please pay a visit and I am sure my whole family will oblige


No-one has forced me but I have read the Koran. Perhaps you should. You may get a little perspective.

Ali


Who said anything about gypsies? I really didn't want to go here, but you started it. My worst work experience was a Saturday afternoon in a library in a leafy Harrow suburb when I was visited by two traveller/gipsy children who proceeded to trash the library, attack the readers and racially abuse some Asian children. I had to call the Police who were hopeless (it took them over an hour to turn up and then they said that by the time they could initiate any action the family would have moved on). I only mention this because you asked. I've also had some good experiences with gysies and some insignificant ones but I have encountered them. Ethnic? Well as a librarian and a member of an 'ethnic minority' I am sensitive to the needs of others but I'm constantly being criticised because I have no books in Punjabi or Tamil yet I do stock books in 30 other languages. I can't win. It's quite right that I should cater for the ethnically diverse community but I don't see why I should be the punchbag for a disgruntled minority. And I speak as a black woman! It's coming to something now when our children's schools don't have nativity plays in order not to 'offend' certain groups (not a Daily Mail headline, I am a Parent Governor of my daughter's school, and the Head Teacher received a petition on this very issue). In fact to refer to the opening of your posting KS, I have been a Guardian reader for at least the last 15 years, the Daily Mail never crosses our threshold.

Phyllis

Good Luck in Blighty and may Uncle Tony suck away all of your assets.

lily34

I'm in the process of finishing a psychology degree, and I intend to get a job with the Dept of Corrections - pretty much doing the same thing! 'you must be mad' I hear you cry

I actually love my job, but yes it is stressful and annoying and often feels very very pointless indeed. New Zealand, from my research, seems to have one of the most forward thinking attitudes towards using psychologists in its offender treatment and supervision - the UK is starting to catch on to similar ideas but much more slowly.

The sad fact is that its hard to deal with the stress of my work when I'm having to live in such an uncaring, 'I'm alright', money-driven society as Britain has become. It'd be lovely to come home and RELAX with my wonderful partner and our gorgeous baby, but there are so many pressures here to get on the 'property ladder' or change our car for a huge SUV to go down Sainsbury's in or one of the million other extremely expensive things that we're being pressured into getting ourselves into lots and lots debt for. I just want to go to work and earn enough to pay bills and do a bit of sport. Maybe throw a few barbies now and again. Share a few beers with the neighbours. That kind of thing. I see from some of the other posts that we aren't alone in wanting that kind of life?

God, all I do is rant - thats what living in the UK does for you!!

lily34

Phyllis, if you ever get fed up with librarian-ing you should write for 'have I got news for you'

NZtoUK

English education system in "crisis"! "Academically obsessed education system".(What is it supposed to be obsessed about I wonder!) Wow! Well my wife and I have taught in both (Primary) systems and I can't say I agree with that. Unless you provide me with the evidence of course. We all care about our children's education but this kind of commentary is worthless. Try these comments from recent NZ publications.....

Parents want end to 'chaos' in class
31.05.2004

By STUART DYE education reporter

Classroom discipline - or lack of it - is parents' biggest worry, a study of their attitudes to education shows.

From poor to well-off schools, state schools, integrated and private schools, most parents said standards rather than qualifications were their biggest anxiety.

The study, released today by an independent think-tank, the Maxim Institute, found more than three-quarters of parents say discipline concerns them most.

Institute director Paul Henderson said parents recognised the importance of literacy and numeracy, but were more worried that their child should not leave school without moral and ethical values.

"When more than 75 per cent of a cross-section of parents say that they are concerned about discipline in schools then principals, teachers and the Ministry of Education need to listen," said Mr Henderson.

The Maxim Institute, a social research and public policy organisation, commissioned an independent researcher to undertake the study - "A snapshot of what parents think of schooling in New Zealand" - which took a year to compile.

The institute is privately funded and describes itself as independent, but Education Minister Trevor Mallard has labelled it "fundamentalist and right-wing".

Fifty-four parents with 137 children were interviewed in the qualitative study. It will be backed up by more in-depth "quantitative' research this year.

The Maxim study, from focus groups and interviews in Auckland and Christchurch, showed parents considered discipline essential to their children's education. Many felt children missed out because of classroom "chaos and disorder".

Mr Henderson said schools needed to have higher expectations of their students and the confidence and ability to take more effective action to ensure a disciplined environment.

"There needs to be discipline reform if we want to improve levels of literacy and numeracy."

Secondary Principals' Association president Paul Ferris said that while no one wanted to return to corporal punishment, "we have not found the appropriate replacement tools for teachers to instil discipline in a changing society".

Parents and schools needed to work together rather than in conflict to find ways of improving classroom behaviour.


How about this?
In Harm’s Way is intended for all those who have an interest in New Zealand’s ability to compete internationally—arguably, an ability intimately linked to the success or failure of the compulsory education sector.


Recent Ministry of Education publications have stated that ‘assessing the quality of education policy is problematic because of the subjective nature of what constitutes quality’. In contrast, most New Zealand parents expect some accountability from the school sector, and hope that their children are being adequately prepared to engage in an increasingly smaller world.

Compulsory education in New Zealand is largely failing our children and should be reformed. When New Zealand pupils are benchmarked internationally in literacy, mathematics and science, they perform, on average, modestly, and in some areas very poorly.

The gap between New Zealand’s top 25% and bottom 25% of achievers in reading literacy is the 2nd largest among 32 nations.
50% of New Zealanders, and among them 72% of Maori and Pacific Islanders, performed at the two lowest levels in an international literacy survey.

In Harm’s Way summarises the findings of four international reports which compare school education, and on the basis of international evidence makes seven recommendations for a way forward.


Book summary

Maxim Institute believes that compulsory education in New Zealand is failing our children and should be reformed. In Harm’s Way describes this failure. It is intended for all those who have an interest in the ability of New Zealand to compete internationally—arguably, an ability intimately linked to the success or failure of the compulsory education sector.

In Harm’s Way summarises the findings of four international reports which compare school education: PIRLS (2003); The Innocenti Report Card (2002); PISA (2000); and TIMSS (1999).

The report benchmarks New Zealand pupils’ performance against international surveys in reading literacy, mathematics and science.

In Harm’s Way reveals that when New Zealand pupils are compared internationally they perform, on average, modestly, and in some areas very poorly.

In comparison with other nations, the following general points can be made:

Children in Finland, Australia, Canada or Korea have a significantly higher chance than a child in New Zealand of being educated to a good standard, and a significantly lower chance of falling well behind the average educational level.


There is poor reading literacy, generally, among New Zealanders:
o 50% of New Zealanders and 72% of Maori and Pacific Islanders performed at the two lowest levels in an international literacy survey;
This ranks New Zealand 5th among six participating English-speaking nations and 14th among 15 countries in the study;
o 14% of New Zealand 15 year-olds have ‘very limited skills in reading literacy.’
There is a large gap between New Zealand boys’ and girls’ performance in reading literacy:
o Among the OECD, New Zealand has the 2nd largest disparity between boys and girls;
o 61% of New Zealand’s bottom 25% of achievers in reading literacy are boys; 39% are girls.
There is poor numeracy, generally, among New Zealanders:
o According to one study, 44% of New Zealand 14 year-olds are ‘unable to apply basic mathematical knowledge in straightforward situations’;
o This result ranked New Zealand 20th out of 24 OECD nations.
There are average science skills among New Zealanders:
o New Zealand ranks 13th among 15 OECD participants and last among five English-speaking nations in one study.
Low-achieving pupils in Finland or Spain are approximately 3.5 years behind the average Finnish or Spanish Year 9 pupil. In New Zealand, low-achievers are approximately five years behind their average achieving peers.

Sobering isn't it? Both systems have their faults and problems but please don't suggest the the UK is doing less for children than NZ!

lily34

I wasn't suggesting that - altho I would assume that maybe you (and your wife) aren't teaching in inner city schools? My partner teaches 9-11 year olds at inner city schools in Nottingham and according to him (and I see no reason to doubt his word), he is frequently encountering children who have poor to non existent literacy and numeracy skills.
I find it continually frustrating that there are always people who are prepared to leap into discussions with ill thought out and sometimes quite offensive remarks. I assume that you didn't mean to be rude, but actually, you were! I know several teachers who are so disillusioned with teaching in the UK, for all the reasons I put in my post. I think it has to be one of the most difficult, stressful jobs anyone can do. What I meant to highlight was that the system of education here favours neither children NOR teachers and I stand by that comment. I also don't think educational achievement can be solely measured in academic successes. I stand by that comment also, unless you can prove otherwise?

It is actually my partner's experiences of teaching that I based the comments in my post on, so please don't dismiss them as worthless. He's been teaching for 10 years, I assume he knows what he's talking about.

Grayling

You seem quite prepared to dismiss other people's views

Have you actually been to NZ?

You may be in for a bit of a shock.

G

lily34

Possibly I will be in for a shock. On the other hand, I may like it. Who knows!? Lets all be open to the posibilities

<--- worn out with all the bickering