Riots in the cities
#32
BE Forum Addict
Joined: May 2007
Location: England
Posts: 4,232
Re: Riots in the cities
These disturbances won't make a difference to our plans to return in early 2012.
We hope to be somewhere in the West Country which seems a long way away from London & Manchester geographically and culturally.
The perpetrators are scum that need to be caught and punished.
However, it's been clear to me for a long time that there is an "under-class" in the UK, which, to use an old Etonian's words, is "sick". If something is sick it needs to be treated or healed in some way, doesn't it?
We hope to be somewhere in the West Country which seems a long way away from London & Manchester geographically and culturally.
The perpetrators are scum that need to be caught and punished.
However, it's been clear to me for a long time that there is an "under-class" in the UK, which, to use an old Etonian's words, is "sick". If something is sick it needs to be treated or healed in some way, doesn't it?
#33
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2009
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 447
Re: Riots in the cities
The underclasses for the main part have just been given a too easy ride..ie..."dole" money is too easy handed out, young girls having children and expecting their own accommodation and then exact not to work their are to many young people also older people and have been on social payments that they have become conditioned to not working for their livelihoods, .
I have seen this social rot take place in a branch of my Dh family.
Dh's grandfather's brother & wife were decent hard working folks.
Their daughter, my MIL's cousin (V) was a decent person, hardworking but somehow lost control of her daughter (S).
This daughter (S) has grown up without personal responsibility, not working, on benefits with multi-partners (to be kind) with multi kids. One of those kids (J) has now adopted the same sponging lifestyle, multi-partners for multi-kids.
Efforts were made by MIL and the errant cousin to get things back on track, even reporting the daughter (S) to the police for various misdemeanors but to no change in behavior.
So one derailment 2 generations back has switched a previous good responsible family to a life of sponging. Yet all the other branches of family have turned out as regular working folk maintaining a decent lifestyle.
Once these spongers found the easy life they see it as the only way to live. They don't care that they are relatively poor, they don't care they are spongers, they simply don't care at all. While they continue to get benefits and housing, have enough money for beer and tobacco and a trip to the seaside then the extent of their ambition is to make more children to get more benefit.
June
Last edited by J.J; Aug 12th 2011 at 5:43 am.
#34
Re: Riots in the cities
Good point. It seems that you can't say 'we need to understand and fix the underlying causes' without someone thinking that means you're making excuses for the criminals.
It's possible to want the criminals to be punished while also wanting the society to assess what is creating the criminals in the first place.
The one sure thing about prison is that those who go in usually come out worse than ever. So banging everyone away isn't a solution - it's just a way to make the problem worse and worse as the years go by.
It's possible to want the criminals to be punished while also wanting the society to assess what is creating the criminals in the first place.
The one sure thing about prison is that those who go in usually come out worse than ever. So banging everyone away isn't a solution - it's just a way to make the problem worse and worse as the years go by.
What I would add is that there is no "us" and "them". We have all participated in creating this society where the focus is definitely on consumerism and having the latest gadgets but then again, that's only one of the 200+ reasons.
#35
Re: Riots in the cities
I tend to agree - but I am shocked at the short prison sentences than are handed out in the UK.
Recent case in point: A woman who killed her 8 year old son by making him drink bleach got 8 years. I understand that in the UK, generally speaking, a person serves half of their sentence.
Recent case in point: A woman who killed her 8 year old son by making him drink bleach got 8 years. I understand that in the UK, generally speaking, a person serves half of their sentence.
#36
Re: Riots in the cities
I would guess one of those 200 reasons is the class system that still thrives in the UK and that makes it perfectly OK to use the word 'chav' to describe a human being. As though once categorized, he or she is no longer worth any further thought or discussion.
The word 'chav' didn't exist in my day - but back then my mother called people 'common' in an equally superior and dismissive way. I always thought people did it to elevate themselves in the class system.
The word 'chav' didn't exist in my day - but back then my mother called people 'common' in an equally superior and dismissive way. I always thought people did it to elevate themselves in the class system.
#37
Heading for Poppyland
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
Posts: 14,683
Re: Riots in the cities
I would guess one of those 200 reasons is the class system that still thrives in the UK and that makes it perfectly OK to use the word 'chav' to describe a human being. As though once categorized, he or she is no longer worth any further thought or discussion.
The word 'chav' didn't exist in my day - but back then my mother called people 'common' in an equally superior and dismissive way. I always thought people did it to elevate themselves in the class system.
The word 'chav' didn't exist in my day - but back then my mother called people 'common' in an equally superior and dismissive way. I always thought people did it to elevate themselves in the class system.
Unfortunately in England there is a persistent history of violent rioting and looting that crops up at regular intervals, going back many hundreds of years. Look at the Gordon riots for instance. And during the Blitz damaged buildings were regularly looted..
To blame the Welfare State is an unconvincing ploy of the usual suspects to denigrate social advances in the UK over the last sixty or more years.
#39
Banned
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: The REAL Utopia.
Posts: 9,910
Re: Riots in the cities
I really don't see this class system nowadays, no doubt it exists as it does anywhere in one form or another. It doesn't seem any different to calling someone here a bogan, it isn't a class thing.
I would guess one of those 200 reasons is the class system that still thrives in the UK and that makes it perfectly OK to use the word 'chav' to describe a human being. As though once categorized, he or she is no longer worth any further thought or discussion.
The word 'chav' didn't exist in my day - but back then my mother called people 'common' in an equally superior and dismissive way. I always thought people did it to elevate themselves in the class system.
The word 'chav' didn't exist in my day - but back then my mother called people 'common' in an equally superior and dismissive way. I always thought people did it to elevate themselves in the class system.
#40
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 6,781
Re: Riots in the cities
The underclasses for the main part have just been given a too easy ride..ie..."dole" money is too easy handed out, young girls having children and expecting their own accommodation and then exact not to work their are to many young people also older people and have been on social payments that they have become conditioned to not working for their livelihoods, I was told by a volunteer that a local mother was feared because (and all the services given were not paid for by the mother) if the certain help groups put a foot wrong she use to sue them for the most ridiculous reasons, one of the groups had to "fold" because after fighting the case against the mother and won they were left without any money.....I was in a supermarket a while ago and a young mum was there with her young daughter (who was running around like a .......whirlwind...being polite there) and the young daughter bumped into a shelf and a tin opener fell off (missed everyone) but the mother frog marched the daughter to customer service and started to put in a complaint form and was going mad....she honestly went off saying compensation to her friend.....mad...just mad....I then stepped forward and told the staff exactly what happened, I just felt it was so wrong what she was trying to do and gain.
From expense account scandals to financial insitution tax funded bankruptcy.
Meanwhile the rest are being mugged by both quarters.
#41
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 6,781
Re: Riots in the cities
There are few jobs for these folk with a lot of what they would have done likely gone to East Europeans.
In Hackney i recall the stats as being one job for every 50+ seekers.
#42
Re: Riots in the cities
I used to work with a guy who spoke with a royal family like accent. One day a co-worker told us we both sounded very posh because of our accents. He said 'oh but we sound very different.' Co-worker shrugged and said 'you sound the same to me.'
As we left the meeting, the posh guy turned to me and said 'I can't believe it. My parents paid a fortune for this accent." It made me laugh, but when we both return to Blighty, he will instantly take his place back on the ladder - significantly higher up than me. It doesn't bother me, but it's a fact of life all the same.
#43
Re: Riots in the cities
Difference being the growth of a further class the under class has expanded greatly and gives every indication of continuing to do so.
There are few jobs for these folk with a lot of what they would have done likely gone to East Europeans.
In Hackney i recall the stats as being one job for every 50+ seekers.
There are few jobs for these folk with a lot of what they would have done likely gone to East Europeans.
In Hackney i recall the stats as being one job for every 50+ seekers.
In fact, the statistic is 50 applicants for each job, not 1 job for every 50 jobseekers.
However, this doesn't mean that for every job, there are 50 unemployed people. A lot of those applicants are also applying for other jobs. If they are all applying for 50 jobs, in fact the job:unemployed person ratio is 1:1.
#44
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: CHELTENHAM, Gloucestershire, England
Posts: 1,494
Re: Riots in the cities
... in the UK....there are degrees of accent that instantly identify you as lower, lower middle, middle, upper middle or 'posh.'......I used to work with a guy who spoke with a royal family like accent....a co-worker told us we both sounded very posh because of our accents........the posh guy turned to me and said 'I can't believe it. My parents paid a fortune for this accent."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBt0E...15F2789687007F
#45
Re: Riots in the cities
Or, in North America, referring to someone as being born the wrong side of the tracks. Or Preppy.