durham_lad

Yes it did but you are missing the point entirely. I'll leave you to keep on stressing over something you cannot change while I slip back into observation mode and have a cuppa.

Pistolpete2

In for a penny in for a pound!

Hang on! We have already got to the goal so far as it was seemingly outlined by the Eurosceptics within the Conservative Party - Brexit.

Add to that the parallel internal power re-jig associated with a vote that went against the Prime Minister. They had no plan for anything else. As far as I can see the way David Cameron played it it was really him and his ego and GO against the best of the rest (on the Eurosceptic side) all depending upon who thought they had the strongest media backing behind them to support their ambitions.

I would hazard a guess that the majority of them are sufficiently well 'set up' in life, one way or another, that they aren't in the least bit worried by the potential to wreck the UK economy in the short-run if it is capable of being an issue that crosses their minds. In fact some might be looking forward to picking over the bones on the cheap when the 'nasty' foreign investors have departed the stage - I note just today that there are planned controls on future foreign inwards investment. Personally I think that delusion (cake and eat it! ) has a part as well.

We were simply USED one way or another to get the Brexit result - Take Back Control and the NHS millions were more than enough, even though we now see that we will actually get NO millions and precious little additional control when compared with what we could have had if the government had done its job properly AND had not blamed Johnny Foreigner for everything negative, even if simply imagined.

Why did WE push for EU enlargement? Why did we not plan for the resultant migrant surge? Why did we implement every new piece of unadapted EU legislation well ahead of other EU members? Why didn't we put forward special measures for all migrants much earlier, as other countries did? Why did we allow the media to get a stranglehold on negative EU publicity and then use it in political spheres (like I don't know the answer)? Why did David Cameron say we would get net immigration down to tens of thousands? Why did Theresa May say that perfectly valid EU inwards migration to the UK was an abuse? Why didn't we take a long hard look at the levels of non EU migration imposed by the ECHR?

ALL OF THIS IS ABOUT POLITICS AND POWER GROUPS AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ECONOMY or us the nation, even less so as Labour are imploding

Even now those spokespersons for the leaving brigade are at best wildly optimistic and at worst simply lying about the likely outcomes in terms of trading under WTO rules as rebutted by WTO officials themselves and the likely results of negotiations with the EU as rebutted by Merkel, Hollande and Juncker. So far as I can see, the Germans as a group think that we the British are a bunch of tossers and are best out of the EU so the hierarchy are not necessarily alone in this. I can't imagine the French think much different.

We could see all of this going into the referendum so it should come as no surprise. The decline in sterling was also pretty obvious BUT things are better than they would be IF we had already signed article 50 and the world knew we had NO plan and Boris Johnson as Prime Minister who was after all only playing games.

For myself, seeing the potential for an OUT vote, I have been in damage limitation mode ever since. I can't just wait for the economy to actually crash and say I couldn't have done anything about it. I admit there is a lot of stress involved.

For the OP I would say that I just don't know.

If some of the rhetoric coming out of last week's Conservative Conference is anything close to what could come to pass, or the general tone from here, I would personally be trying to leave asap. Where to is now somewhat limited.

Regaining sovereignty* (whatever that is likely to ACTUALLY be) doesn't put bread on my table or ward off those undesirables who didn't need to get this encouragement.

I would say though that down here in Brexit Country in Dorset things and the mood do not appear to have changed yet and many in this mostly retired part of the world will be insulated from the inevitable downturn in the broader economy when investment dries up and jobs start to go. It's only a matter of time before prices in the grocery stores start to rise though. If inflation kicks in they get a state pension increase for goodness sake!

* We just went through a referendum where the degree of lies, deceptions, distortions and false inflammatory detail must have broken all records. More critically, the result as we thought we saw it was actually hijacked for purely party political ends (incl by Cameron who weakened the Remain argument so as not to offend his own party members), really at all costs, including the economy and racial harmony. Related to this and pointing a finger at ALL UK media who are a large part of the 'problem', I just discovered that democracy (as per the Greeks) assumed that the electorate were engaged and had a responsibility to be so. Those who were not engaged were called idiots, IDIOTIS. So much for UK democracy! Something as complex as a referendum on EU membership stood no chance.

Novocastrian

You seem to agree that this is the biggest cock up in recent British history (apart from Iraq and before that Suez)?

Pistolpete2

I think that Iraq and Suez were somewhat different in that they were fundamental mis-judgements about a region and its mood, made worse by our own meddling in that region much earlier with the Sykes Picot Agreement and the carve-up and cobbling of tribal areas into 'nations'. The same arrogance of toffs though. Funnily enough there is a common link - Nationalism!

Now we have a beef within elements of the Conservative Party being fashioned into an argument to put to the people, clothed as a grievance in exactly the same way that Nicola Sturgeon pitched the Scottish Referendum. In the Scottish case it is likely that the end game of offering more devolution won the day. IF the EU referendum had been played the same way and the electorate had been promised further engagement with the EU to remedy the 'wrongs' it might have won the day.

IF the leavers had had a workable plan and consensus on how to properly go about it then the damage could have been more limited - of course this plan should have been communicated in large part BEFORE the referendum.

With that plan actually looking feasible it was a toss-up whether we were better off leaving or remaining IMHO. Now we lose and the EU lose in anything that we negotiate with them.

The Remainers couldn't have a plan in the event of losing because they would have been accused by the media of falling on their own swords - What! You think you might lose!

I guess we have to keep kicking ourselves to remember that all of this was a giant charade which we got caught up in so there really is no logic to it for us on the outside in spite of some of us thinking that we got what we wanted. There was no plan because it wasn't 'that kind of party'.

Actually it took me the longest while to work out whether David Cameron took a dive, he did such a terrible job in his role as leader of the Remain campaign. It seems that his arrogance that he had it all under control on his own lost the day - gosh that does sound like Iraq!

Lies lies and more lies .

nun

I'm sorry for England. Before Brexit I still had a bit of national pride and belief in the general goodness of most of my compatriots. However, since the vote I've become very disillusioned by the growth of nationalism and the wholesale embrace of UKIP polices by the current Tories. When Micheal Heseltine looks like the most reasonable man in the room things have gone pretty far off course......IMHO.

I can't help but feel that England deserves what it gets and have a measure of Schadenfreude when I see the pound plummet and the Tories struggling to deal with how they will negotiate Brexit. The powerful will be ok, it's the working people that will be hurt. Rather than worrying about immigration they should be concentrating on the tilt of UK legislation towards the employer at their expense in things like tax, pension, and employment conditions legislation.

spouse of scouse

There's still as many good people in the UK as there's always been, nun. It's just that ordinary people (working or not) going about their ordinary day to day business aren't good media fodder. So who do we hear about and from? Politicians, 'famous' people (usually with a bird brain), lowlifes and criminals. They don't represent the UK. (well, the pollies ostensibly do but ya know..)

nun

The fact that the Conservatives can have UKIP policies and a 17% lead in the polls is my reason for believing that the inherent xenophobia of England has surfaced. The Tories will wrap themselves in the warm blanket of their rose tinted view of English history and drive the UK into decline. Of course there are still good people in England and voting for Brexit doesn't make someone bad....but it doesn't help IMHO.

Giantaxe

At least some of that 17% lead is due to Corbyn dragging Labour into unelectable territory as opposed to any great love of the Conservatives. Not that that is particularly comforting in that the UK really needs a credible opposition to the Conservatives right now.

Novocastrian

I think you're overthinking. Most Brits and most other people these days are fairly stupid. Empress Treeza has adopted a UKIP platform while at the same time claiming to be moving the Tories to the "centre ground".

The Lumpenproletariat gobble what they're fed.

Novocastrian

And the beat goes on. We'll see.

nun

Has anyone read "The Children of Men"? or seen "V for Vendetta".....a bit hyperbolic, I know, but often writers see more of the truth that the politicians or the electorate because they have some distance.

nun

Then they are eating their own vomit.

Novocastrian

And tonight (or very early yesterday morning), so was the UK. Treeza was allowed to speak for 5 whole minutes at 1 am and was then completely ignored.

If 27-1 was a football score, I wouldn't bet on the losing side to win the longer game.

nun

Yes, I read about that. It sounded a bit humiliating. I really don't understand what cards the UK has to play re-Brexit other than the status of UK resident EU citizens (which has a "human shield" quality about it) and some reduction in bilateral trade which will hurt the UK and the EU, but the EU might be able to compensate by poaching some multinationals and banks.

Editha

Following the referendum I bought myself 6 badges which read:

• I voted remain
• Don't blame me, I voted remain.
• Bugger Brexit
• I (heart) Europe
• 48%
• and Proud European.

I wear one of them every day.