Cape Blue

[QUOTE=Basil Brush] Basil - you think calling Europeans wogs or commentators shouting "the Paki's are losing" is out of order and Australia could do with a little more PC - I agree.

However I also think that saying "They have British passports, they are all Pakistani, I don't think of them as Brits just because they have a British passports. Anyone who wants to blow up 10 passenger planes full of British citizens going on holiday isn't a Brit in my book, they are just Pakistani scum." is also wrong and do not think that anyone commenting upon this is "PC gone mad" but just commenting on on a bigoted, delusional viewpoint.

Scout

First off........I didn't brand Mercedes as a racist. Go back and re-read what I said. I said her COMMENTS were racist and I explained why. Refusing to accept the fact does not dismiss it. Secondly, had she described the group of suspects as 'minority religious extremists' in the first place, this conversation would have never ensued. Label my opinion & the opinions of others as being PC all you want.....it doesn't lessen the validity of my objection one whit.

Exile

I think you are really twisting, stretching, and misinterpreting the words of Mercedes here.

She is clearly calling them scum not on the basis of their origin but because they allegedly planned to blow up plane loads of innocent people.

Scout

If she was doing that then she need not preface the word 'scum' with the word 'Pakistani'. She most certainly was calling them scum based on where she perceives they 'come from'.

ladyofthelake

I agree with you Scout. Who gave Mercedes the authority to take away their citizenship and make the assumption they are Pakistanis instead? If they are guilty as charged, then they are indeed scum, but they are British Islam extremists, you can't change it to Pakistani just because you feel like it.

Mercedes

Considering the News Channel people refer to them as PAKISTANI ORGIN OR HOME GROWN PAKISTANIS. I don't know why you lot are getting your Knickers in twist.

Understand, when I see English anglo saxon yobs in Spain or elsewhere, English opposed to British (not Scottish, Welsh, Irish,Indian, Chinese, Pakistani etc), and see these yobs acting like barbarians in another country I have often said, Bloody English Scum. But I'm also anglo saxon English, so am I saying all Anglo saxon English are Yobs and scum including myself, I don't think so, do you? Or would you class my comment of English Scum as racist, and refers to ALL English people, even though I'm English myself? Or would you only consider it racist if it was an English Pakistani saying it about anglo saxons?

Like in the example of the Anglo Saxon English Yobs or scum, I was referring to those 20 odd men who wanted to Blow up British planes as scum, not every man woman and Child who was Pakistani. Did the News not also say that these men were from Pakistani orgin, some homegrown, some not? My comments were made at the men who I consider scum and since they are Pakistani Orgin, or from Pakistani, it was fitting to put that in front of scum.So since I was referring to them and it was obvious I was doing so I didn't feel it necessary to add "minority blah blah blah."

But are they are a minority? Pakistan is the hub of terrorisism and it is thought Osma Bin Laden is there. A number of attacks on the western world has started and being planned from there, being Pakistan. With relatives in the western world it is easier to gain access. Pakistani people started to come into the UK in the 1950's, it was approximately in the 1960's that the Government made a policy for them decide whether they stayed or left. Many initially hadn't planned on staying, they planned to go back to Pakistan eventually. But there were better opportunities in the UK. And these Pakistani people worked hard for bloody awful wages, but they have done well, and their offbring have had probably a better life than had they been brought up in Pakistan and have had more opportunties that their parents and are often better educated. Pakistan is still a poor country.

Intelligence officials in both India and Pakistan said that for more than a decade Islamic militants have been training in Afghanistan and Pakistan for a war against the west. The religious schools are called Madassas they reckon there is over 1000 in Pakistan and 1.7 - 2 million students are taught there every year.

So what happens in these schools, it teaches them islamic but also there are many who teach military tatics you have the whole rise of Islamic military camps, and some Islamic guerilla camps along the border of Pakistan, which mix a dosage of Islam with a lot of military training. There they also train a new generation of mosque leaders and clerics who go and open their own madrassas or go to overseas mosques. And guess what we have quite a few of those fundamentalist leaders now in good ol blighty.

In he London Bombing three of the suicide bombers were of Pakistani origin and intelligence officers believe they may have been recruited for their mission during visits to Pakistan. Shazhad Tanweer, the Aldgate bomber, is known to have visited an Madrassas linked to al-Qaeda in Pakistan. Like anywhere, children of Pakistani parents go to their Mother land to see relatives and take a gap year out, and it is often then they are recruited. They are not poor uneducated people, but from the middle classes, often with a good education, ie university and no criminal records. These people who may not have had the same opportunities if their parents hadn't emigrated, now want to kill people of the nations which gave them opportunity and now they are using that education against us in some cases.

The Pakistani intelligence officers also believe that Britain is becoming a breeding ground for Pakistani terrorists too,it now has its own radical preachers and now "home-grown suicide bombers".

You know that Pakistan is a Sunni country also don't you, and that the Al Quida PLC Group is a Sunni organisation. and that most of the attacks on the coalition forces in Iraq are mainly in the Sunni Region by Al Quida insurgents but they are ahead of the game all the time in their attacks, their intelligence is much higher than probably the coalition forces, they certainly counter anything that we put in. So if they use that intelligence against us, in the UK it will be an interesting time for our security forces.

That plot on the airlines was intelligent, the same with 911, that was a mastermind if you look at it unemotionally. They are probably better than the IRA was as they know how to klll the masses, so our security forces will have to be on their toes and it won't be an easy job, because they will be upsetting more of the Pakistani community, especially if any more come from Pakistani orgin or their relatives in Pakistan. And it won't be easy for them, because as said they are dealing with educated, intelligent people who have no prior criminal records or links to terrorist organisations. With world travel nowadays and cheap flights the world is their oyster.

Mercedes

British Islam extremists from Pakistani orgin. Why don't you ask the Pakistanis if they prefer to be called British Pakistanis. or British Asian. Some like either. The news referred to them as Pakistanis either home grown or from elsewhere. I'm classed as EnglishBritish, some are Scottish British and would be offended if you referred to them as English, same with the welsh. Jesus, say a welshman lives in England and they get upset.

And besides anyone who considers blowing up 2000 plus on British planes, to me I would rather not consider them British, regardless of what their passport or birth certificates says. Maybe the government should take their passports and their citizenships away from them if they are committing terrorisism against the British people.

Scout

Thank you for the history lesson Mercedes. I am sure we are all educated now.

I have yet to hear the media refer to the suspects as Pakistani Scum and where in the world have they called them......your words....HOME GROWN PAKISTANIS??? Perhaps you meant HOMEGROWN TERRORISTS? A Freudian slip of the keyboard eh?

davidb

Well said Mercedes, please ignore the pc brigade on here, who wish to bury their heads in the sand. The fact is we are talking about a minority of British Subjects (there is no such thing as a British Citizen) whose loyalties lie with their Pakastani origins, and their misguided view of their faith, rather than the country they were born in. These people want to committ murder on a mass scale of infants, women, christans,fellow muslims, Jews, Hindus to express their point of view. As you rightly point out these people are scum, and mostly Pakastani scum.

Lord Pom Percy

[QUOTE=Cape Blue] Did you see on the news the Aussie cricket comentator who got sacked for called a muslim crciket player a terrorist.

Cape Blue

What exactly are the pc brigade burying their heads in the sand about davidb? If anything it is yourself and Mercedes who are burying heads in the sand with your desire to pretend that these people (suspects by the way) are not British, in some deluded view that "decent British types" wouldn't do such a thing and that being British is above such atrocities. British people have committed many atrocities in the past, fortunately less in the more recent past. I have yet to see definitive information on the nationality of the suspects.

If these people are found guilty then they are indeed scum and deserve the full force of the law - but if there nationality is British then they are British scum and not Pakistani scum and we British need to understand that. We would be quick to say that a successful Olympian who was born & raised in the UK but was of Pakistani heritage was a great British (or Scottish, Welsh, English, N Irish) winner of medals etc, so we can't try and dodge the issue on the downside.

davidb

The only things about these people that are British are their passport/place of birth...their religion, philosophy and their loyalties all belong somewhere else...hence their actions and behaviour. A third of young muslims in the UK now believe that suicide bombing(including 7/7) are justifiable because of British Foreign policy. How British...?????

Cape Blue

So a black person born and bred in Britain who is a Buddhist and believes in communism is not British? Are the British solely Christian? My philosophy on life might be different than yours - which one is a British philosophy?

Mercedes

Being american, I didn't think you would know any British history. So I thought I would educate you.

Since in many articles they refer them as homegrown terrorists, and then later refer as Pakistani decent or Pakistani orgin, it could be also said that they Homegrown Pakistani Terrorists.. I think I missed the Terrorist bit off, .Apart from the British Pakistani orgin, or some have referred them as offspring of Pakistani immigrants, they seem to have also arrested a few Pakistanis from Pakistan in Pakistan who were also involved in this plot.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060811/...in_terror_plot
http://www.pakistantimes.net/2006/08/11/top.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...309334,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4781925.stm
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...225470,00.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060811/...in_terror_plot

An interesting site
http://counterterrorismblog.org

You know what is actually quite worrying that the former Metropolitan police chief said last year that up to 3,000 British born or British based people had passed through Osama Bin Laden’s training camps. If it is true that is a bit of a worry.

Maybe they should call them Jihad terrorists rather than islamic extremists.
Separate the two names, since the followers of the Koran seem to be more peaceful.

I often wonder if Uk will turn into a country like one of the middle eastern countries with it's conflicts in the future, I hope not.

Sally

What you would consider them as is a matter for yourself, but as others have said you have to accept that British people are not necessarily all white, Christian or "good eggs". Think you've made a bit of a red herring out of this, surely everyone can agree that those who plot such heinous crimes are scum, and even that that their family background needs to be taken into account for intelligence purposes. Your original choice of words was offensive as past attitudes to Pakistanis have contributed to the situation as it stands today.