Basil Brush

[QUOTE=Mercedes]Why is it racist. I didn't refer to them as Pakis. I referred to them as Pakistani, which they are, either orginated from or are from Pakistan. So not racist.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can see the point that you are trying to make, Mercedes....holding a British passport is irrelevant if you hate the British & want to commit a dispicible act towards them. Well pointed out that there are many people on this forum who for example have their Oz passport, but wouldn't dream of calling themselves Australian as they are still in the mind-set that they are "True Brits"!!

Oh and before you ask I'm not a racist either....my best friend of the last 24 years is half Pakistani & I have friends from different corners of the world. The fact is that these people want to blow innocent men, women & children out of the sky & that, no matter where they originate from makes them scum in my eyes too!!!

Mercedes

[QUOTE=Basil Brush] Thank god at last someone who knows what I'm saying...

touchingcloth

[QUOTE=Mercedes]
err..i think you'l l find he's referring to the obvious stuff that most of the world agrees with...i.e mass murder is wrong.

I haven't seen anyone agreeing with you point about having a different viewpoint makes you any less British.

If you're born in a country and raised there..then you're a national of that country NO MATTER how screwed up your views.

What you'll be saing next is that sex offenders aren't British either.


The fact is that these people arrested over terrorism threats ARE British.

TC

HiddenPaw

Perhaps you interpreted her comments in a way that she didn't intend?

I understand what she is saying - that these people are not British, they just happen to have a British passport. She has labelled them as scum and preceeded the word scum with their true nationality, which happens to be Pakistani. She is not insulting Pakistanis, she is not saying that all Pakistanis are scum, but she is emphasising a point that these people are not British.

HiddenPaw

[QUOTE=touchingcloth
The fact is that these people arrested over terrorism threats ARE British.

TC[/QUOTE]
Oh, I thought they were born overseas, but just had British passports.

Scout

You lumped the entire culture of Pakistan in the the 'scum label' with your first post. That's why it's racist. You may not have come right out and called them Pakis but the implication was indeed there from the context of your post. Racism exists even when subtle.

May I remind you, that again, many were born here in the UK and/or raised here....not Pakistan. Their parents country of origin has nothing to do with who they are now. ....One I know was originally from the Caribean. Several converted to Islam and changed their western names to more Islamic names and so far......none have been charged, tried and convicted. One has already been released.

My 'American Comment' was in response to your previous comment that people here in this forum had slagged off on Americans, Australians, etc and insulted them all the time. My mention of my nationality and the fact that no one here had ever offended me with their comments except yours was in response to your comments and to dismiss them as being not correct.

Perhaps you really didn't mean to come across as racist. My point is you did. It doesn't take names like Paki, nigger, etc. to blatently call attention to racism. Subtle racism is often much more damaging......because it lends an element of credibility to your comments....Your comments indicate for some reason that you think British culture is superior to the culture of Pakistan. You have judged 19 individuals to be Scum based simply on their origin of Nationality when you prefaced the word Scum with the word Pakistani.

Don't dismiss the events of the past few days as being a product of the Nation of Pakistan. It's a homegrown British problem. If this threat proves to be true & a plot was indeed in place the root causes of why so many young men felt the need to kill inoocents needs to be addressed. Are there double standards in British Foreign policy when dealing with countries? Even if they don't agree with British Foreign policy what caused them to resort to terroristic acts to disagree with it? I know many don't agree with British Foreign policy right now but they are not out plotting to blow up planes to get their point across. What can be done to prevent such actions in the future? Perhaps we can start with examining our own attitudes towards other cultures and move on from there?

MikeStanton

As you're an American, I presume you are referring to America; the country that has done more damage to world stability in the last 5 years than all others put together.

Scout

Yes that's the country. I don't dispute your comment either. George Bush has done his damnedest to ruin the world for everyone. It's one of the main reasons we left.(and I remind you Tony Blair has been beside him every step of the way) What's your point? Or do you have one? Am I an American Scum simply because of my country of origin now?

Basil Brush

[QUOTE=touchingcloth] As a matter of fact I do feel that Mercedes explanation makes sense. I think she is likely correct that if questioned this minority (and I stress the word minority) would consider themselves to be Pakistani, with an extreme hatred towards the Western (& therefore British) culture.

I think there may be some confusion between Citizenship & Patriotism. As she says almost anyone can become a British Citizen, whilst the definition of Patriotism reads 'the positive attitude of an individual towards his or her own perceived civic or political community, to its culture, its members, and to its interests'.

How often have we read in the headlines 'British soccer hooligans strike again' ? I don't misconstrue this to mean that every British soccer fan is a riotous hooligan - I understand that they are referring to an idiotic minority & don't feel the need to get on the defensive & suggest that we are all being tarred with the same brush.

Why does political correctness have to blur the fact that a minority of religious fanatics (regardless of where they were born) are intent on mass murder?? We all know what's going on in the world.....and it's a very ugly state of affairs indeed!!

Scout

[QUOTE=Basil Brush] But are we talking about patrotism or nationalsim here? Nationalism is defined as 'Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.' I think we all know where nationalism has led us before. It's a fine and dangerous line we walk.

jugsy

I understand what Mercedes is trying to say.
I have worked with many people of many different nationalities and races and am not anti - immigration etc.
What I do believe strongly though is - how dare this minority of people blow us up in our own country because they don't believe in our culture? There are groups of young BRITISH BORN muslims who want sharia law in Britain.
They may be British born but they want to destroy everything the West stands for.
We are allowed to dislike this without being branded racists. I don't dislike law abiding muslims who make a valuable contribution to our society. yes our foreign policy is questionable but these people would be better off demonstrating and raising awareness rather than killing innocent people.
Mercedes in her passion for the subject may not have phrased her argument too well but I understand what she is saying.

Basil Brush

[QUOTE=jugsy]They may be British born but they want to destroy everything the West stands for.
We are allowed to dislike this without being branded racists. I don't dislike law abiding muslims who make a valuable contribution to our society. /QUOTE]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

You've just hit the nail on the head, Jugsy!

The fact that these appalling actions are being carried out by a minority doesn't make it any easier to swallow & I think it's perfectly understandable for the public to feel passionate about the issue!

PC has gone mad!

I think I need a little light refreshment now!!

BB

Cape Blue

Thank you Scout - a well written and erudite post.

think you'll need to give this one up though

one poster thinks its OK to say "they are just Pakistani scum" and sees nothing wrong in all the inference that this and other comments they made entail.

another thinks your comments against "they are just Pakistani scum" is "PC gone mad" (Daily Mail alert)

a further thinks "We are allowed to dislike this without being branded racists" - which is true, but only if one isn't using pejorative descriptions and generalising about everyone in a particular group.

a delight to see the BE reactionaries in full song

sassenach

[QUOTE=touchingcloth] These potential terrorists are NOTHING ,they believe in an ideology that transcends all national boundaries .That is why the likes of george bush,john howard ,tony blair will never beat them .
A person that thinks so little of their own lives ,certainly thinks nothing of others .They are selfish to the extreme and thats why they are so dangerous .
Mercedes remark in regards to their national background is a natural reaction and to be fair to all the immigrants that came from pakistan,india,west indies have contributed greatly to british society but a few of thei offspring have become disilousioned with their lives and are searching for a different version of life .Islam seems to offer a life that doesnt revlove around materialism ,which we in the west seem to value so highly .
There are people out there who would say britain is really only reaping what it has sown ,with the colonial conquering of a lot of these former nations it seems to me only a natural reaction to hit back and lets face it the USA acts like a world police man and certain people dont like it [me included].
The likes of britain and especially america has to stop meddling in politics in the oil rich nations of the middle east ,the war in iraq and afghanistan was a huge mistake they think totally different to us and their ideas of decency towards human beings differs from ours and WE fail to understand this .

Basil Brush

[QUOTE=Cape Blue]
another thinks your comments against "they are just Pakistani scum" is "PC gone mad" (Daily Mail alert)/QUOTE]

Actually I've never been a Daily Mail reader & in fact haven't even lived in the UK for 5 years, so your assumptions are somewhat off the mark.

I am referring to the fact that we shouldn't be branded as racists because we express our dislike of the deplorable actions of a bunch of minority religious extremists. This is where I think PC has gone too far. I believe that Mercedes emotions got the better of her and don't see the need to assume that she is a racist (nor do you have the right to assume that anyone else who can see her point of view is a racist). We all say things that we don't mean when we are upset or perhaps word things the wrong way, but I think people are ignoring her explanations & are reading into it what they want to.

After living in Oz for 5 years....where European migrants are openly called wogs and the sports commentator shouts "the Paki's are losing", I am often horrified that there seems to be little or no PC here. This is somewhat different to the UK where everybody is frightened of saying something that might offend - myself included!!