dontheturner

I think you need a good history lesson. had it not been for the Suffragettes(S) and the unions, over many years, no one would be enjoying the good working conditions, we now all enjoy. Please - don't talk about things, you so obviously know so little about. In the Ministry of Defence- YES! the UK Civil Service, you have to belong to a Union, to ensure harmony in the workplace. - No individual can go ask for a change of conditions, if something is required.

sallysimmons

Bijilo123 has a 'point of view' best summed up as "I've got mine so screw the rest of you." It's clear in a few different threads. Better to just pat him/her on the head - or better still, don't feed the troll - and just go on with the conversation.

Mummy in the foothills

Well the union here has been wonderful for us. Dh has a job that gives us fantastic health care, optical and dental, first time in 25 years we've had that and retirement, all his other jobs paid the same as now and never had any retirement savings. Without the union, this job would be just like all the others and we'd be sinking fast financially, so I for one do support the unions, it's when none of the members bother to vote or speak up and they go ahead and do what they think the members should do that the trouble begins. once the contract is signed it's too late to complain, you have to get in on the ground level and vote and speak up for yourself and do whats right for the whole not the few.

dunroving

A rep from the TUC was interviewed on the Andrew Marr Show just now and I think represented what is bad about unions, namely a knee-jerk reaction to call for a general strike in protest against the proposed government cuts that will "victimize" the "poor", "single mothers", and other similar characterizations that are straight out of the Arthur Scargill handbook. He also said that people join unions so they can "fight" to "get the best deal" for workers.

Well, I say bollocks. I belong to a union because several thousand workers can't all talk at the same time. Yes, unions are a potential force for good, but they should represent the views of the workers. When they work that way, I think they are a force for good. At times in the past, militancy was the only answer because of how poorly the average worker was treated by their employer. Thankfully, many unions have moved with the times, but there are still one or two pillocks who work to rise up in the unions just because they like a good fight.

I think another problem with the attitude of people like this bloke is they can't do simple maths. If every union fights for a pay rise, that leads either to inflation, or some poor bugger in another type of employment not getting a rise because there's not enough money to go rouond.

With principles of fairness, reasonableness, and everything in moderation, unions are a good thing. It's when they are run by bolshy revolutionists that the problems start (or as Mummy says, when the workers don't bother to tell the union reps what they want).

dontheturner

Can I take it then, sir, you always attend the monthly branch meetings, to make your thoughts known? - you then only have to ensure your fellow workers go, too.

dunroving

Luckily, in these days of electronic communication, it's possible to make my views known without being there in person, but yes, I do let them know what I think (as I said in an earlier email regarding the ballot for strike action).

For practical reasons, I usually can't attend the meetings (they're on the other side of town, in the evening, and I live too far away). If every member turned up, there wouldn't be room for everyone, anyway.

Mummy in the foothills

Here it's done in the workplace, the rep comes round. Dh always discusses whats up for vote with his shop steward and the rep (I think they call him something else) will ask the guys as he sees them what they think. It's done on a lot smaller scale. Dh union workplace has a few thousand workers at one facility, their contract is only for that facility so it's much more personal, not affecting members who live in other parts of the state or country, even thought the union (teamsters) is nationwide. We went to the hall and voted to get rid of something the other week, that gave them all a bit more in the pay check each week.
Not sure it is facility specific in the UK, I was in the Nurses union back in the day I don't remember much about it really.

Sally Redux

I don't see anything wrong with fighting to get the best deal for workers. I was in NATFHE which was as weak as water, the NUT was much tougher and secured a better deal for the schoolteachers, who are now in a far better position than FE teachers.

dunroving

My cousin is a lecturer in FE and I don't think he is too happy with his work conditions.

My comment on what the TUC pillock was saying is more to do with maintaining a perspective - like I said previously, the UCU has spent a lot of energy over the past 12 months bleating about the "derisory" pay rise offer of 0.4% made to university lecturers, when a) I think in comparison to other public service workers we're pretty well off, and b) there are a lot more important things to be spending energy on, like protecting jobs and pension rights. When the pot is limited, screaming for a pay rise can lead to a choice of who gets to keep their job and who gets to lose it. Additionally, I think fighting for a pay rise when inflation is low and there's not much money leads you to lose credibility later, when pay rises are warranted (a bit like crying wolf, I suppose).

One sensible point the TUC guy made was to contrast what's happening with the public sector when the financial sector (that was at least partially responsible for getting us in this mess in the first place) will probably be lavishing themselves with mega-bonuses pretty soon.

Sally Redux

I've been out of it a while but I know that one of the issues used to be how teachers/lecturers have lost their traditional parity with groups such as police. That is probably where the term 'derisory' is coming from. I do agree some of the rhetoric is extremely tired, however without union protection I believe teachers would lose any job protection and would probably be hired and fired as needed for courses.

dunroving

We actually got a pretty decent series of pay rises between about 2005 and 2008, based on a written set of agreements with UCEA(?), including one that was something like "2%, or RPI, whichever is higher". The month the pay rise was due to be determined, there was a really weird jump in inflation to about 5% ... and the following month or two it dropped again. Have to say, though, that university administrators have paid themselves an obscene series of pay rises recently, at the same time as we have been offered 0.4% ... but these kinds of comparisons can mess up your blood pressure ...

I think our society has it all wrong when police, nurses and teachers scrabble for a decent wage and casino bankers make more in one bonus than a schoolful of teachers will make in 10 years ... :curse:

Reminds me a bit of that bumper sticker I saw in the States, something like "wouldn't it be nice if schools had all the books they needed and the air force had to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber?"

Sally Redux

Right on.

dontheturner

Sally - I well remember that situation. I was a fully skilled Electronics Engineer, working for the M.O.D. and the only way we could get a decent level of income, was by finding similar vacancies in the private sector, and using them as an example. Unions are necessary, but they are only as good as the workers, who voice their opinions to them.