21st Century Socialist Man
Oct 5th 2016, 7:07 pm
#46
Was in Canada, now home.
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Re: 21st Century Socialist Man
According to Fabian Society analysis, however you look at it, if Labour is to win the next election, it needs to win the votes of a lot of people who voted Tory at the last election. Corbyn is not going to win their votes. Period. So supporting Corbyn means you are helping the Tory party.
Oct 5th 2016, 7:24 pm
#47
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Re: 21st Century Socialist Man
Exactly.
According to Fabian Society analysis, however you look at it, if Labour is to win the next election, it needs to win the votes of a lot of people who voted Tory at the last election. Corbyn is not going to win their votes. Period. So supporting Corbyn means you are helping the Tory party.
According to Fabian Society analysis, however you look at it, if Labour is to win the next election, it needs to win the votes of a lot of people who voted Tory at the last election. Corbyn is not going to win their votes. Period. So supporting Corbyn means you are helping the Tory party.
I'd give odds on for the Conservative internecine mayhem to destroy their party within 2 years, while Corbyn remains a decent voice of reason, devoid of ambition for himself, but continuing to be a true social democrat with the right ideas at the right time.
It'll be the unelected vs the unelectable. If the unelected lasts that long. We'll see.
BTW I do not agree with Holly on other matters.
Last edited by Novocastrian; Oct 5th 2016 at 7:27 pm.
Oct 5th 2016, 7:43 pm
#48
Was in Canada, now home.
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Re: 21st Century Socialist Man
PS. I think Holly is a
Oct 5th 2016, 7:51 pm
#49
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Oct 5th 2016, 7:55 pm
#50
Was in Canada, now home.
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Re: 21st Century Socialist Man
Oct 5th 2016, 8:29 pm
#51
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Re: 21st Century Socialist Man
In the short term there is no British Socialist message, since EU exit, worldwide financial collapse and indeed unrestricted nuclear war (assuming Clinton is elected POTUS) are each somewhat likely before 2020. And any one will change everything.
In the longer term the message must be along the lines of:
"To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service. " (That text was adopted verbatim by the British Labour Party in 1918).
It's taken for granted that the mass media will pull out all possible stops for defeat socialism.
In the longer term the message must be along the lines of:
"To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service. " (That text was adopted verbatim by the British Labour Party in 1918).
It's taken for granted that the mass media will pull out all possible stops for defeat socialism.
Oct 8th 2016, 11:42 am
#52
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Re: 21st Century Socialist Man
But not a nuclear war between Russia and the US.
It's a Scylla and Charybdis kind of dilemma. With Trump there is a real possibility of catastrophe due to his loose cannon nature. But with Clinton there is a near certainty of a catastrophe - we all get to die in a nuclear winter. As in "I came, I saw, you died."
Peacemakers are dangerous, but warmongers (as in Libya) are more dangerous.
I really don't like Trump. There is only one thing would make me vote for him - Hillary Clinton. I think many American voters feel the same way.
Oct 8th 2016, 12:29 pm
#54
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Re: 21st Century Socialist Man
I can understand your dislike of Clinton but would you really vote for him given his attitude towards women? It amazes me that any woman would vote for him, particularly after yesterday's revelations.
Oct 8th 2016, 11:34 pm
#55
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Re: 21st Century Socialist Man
Possibly.
But not a nuclear war between Russia and the US.
It's a Scylla and Charybdis kind of dilemma. With Trump there is a real possibility of catastrophe due to his loose cannon nature. But with Clinton there is a near certainty of a catastrophe - we all get to die in a nuclear winter. As in "I came, I saw, you died."
Peacemakers are dangerous, but warmongers (as in Libya) are more dangerous.
I really don't like Trump. There is only one thing would make me vote for him - Hillary Clinton. I think many American voters feel the same way.
But not a nuclear war between Russia and the US.
It's a Scylla and Charybdis kind of dilemma. With Trump there is a real possibility of catastrophe due to his loose cannon nature. But with Clinton there is a near certainty of a catastrophe - we all get to die in a nuclear winter. As in "I came, I saw, you died."
Peacemakers are dangerous, but warmongers (as in Libya) are more dangerous.
I really don't like Trump. There is only one thing would make me vote for him - Hillary Clinton. I think many American voters feel the same way.
Oct 12th 2016, 12:10 am
#56
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Re: 21st Century Socialist Man
President Clinton was worse. And Hillary Clinton stood by his philandering, pure hypocrisy.
But a real issue is that Hillary Clinton is personally responsible for thousands of deaths in Libya, and untold misery to people who no longer live in a functioning country. Goodness knows, life under Col. Ghadaffi was no picnic for the Libyan people. But it was paradise compared with what they have now - utter ruin and all 100% intentional by Hillary Clinton and those who own her.
Oct 12th 2016, 12:30 am
#57
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Re: 21st Century Socialist Man
No matter how hard I try, I still can't work this out. Given the size of the US population, its fine educational institutions, its importance and place in the world - Trump and Clinton are the best candidates for the top job that could be found? The US deserves better.
Oct 12th 2016, 12:50 am
#58
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Re: 21st Century Socialist Man
Most men are the same.
President Clinton was worse. And Hillary Clinton stood by his philandering, pure hypocrisy.
But a real issue is that Hillary Clinton is personally responsible for thousands of deaths in Libya, and untold misery to people who no longer live in a functioning country. Goodness knows, life under Col. Ghadaffi was no picnic for the Libyan people. But it was paradise compared with what they have now - utter ruin and all 100% intentional by Hillary Clinton and those who own her.
President Clinton was worse. And Hillary Clinton stood by his philandering, pure hypocrisy.
But a real issue is that Hillary Clinton is personally responsible for thousands of deaths in Libya, and untold misery to people who no longer live in a functioning country. Goodness knows, life under Col. Ghadaffi was no picnic for the Libyan people. But it was paradise compared with what they have now - utter ruin and all 100% intentional by Hillary Clinton and those who own her.
Oct 12th 2016, 1:30 am
#59
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Re: 21st Century Socialist Man
No matter how hard I try, I still can't work this out. Given the size of the US population, its fine educational institutions, its importance and place in the world - Trump and Clinton are the best candidates for the top job that could be found? The US deserves better.
Oct 12th 2016, 7:57 am
#60
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Re: 21st Century Socialist Man
But a real issue is that Hillary Clinton is personally responsible for thousands of deaths in Libya, and untold misery to people who no longer live in a functioning country. Goodness knows, life under Col. Ghadaffi was no picnic for the Libyan people. But it was paradise compared with what they have now - utter ruin and all 100% intentional by Hillary Clinton and those who own her.
Donald Trump's Pants on Fire claim he never discussed Libya intervention | PolitiFact
"I can’t believe what our country is doing," Trump said, according to a BuzzFeed transcript. "Gaddafi in Libya is killing thousands of people, nobody knows how bad it is, and we’re sitting around we have soldiers all have the Middle East, and we’re not bringing them in to stop this horrible carnage and that’s what it is: It’s a carnage."
Trump continued.
"You talk about things that have happened in history; this could be one of the worst," Trump said. "Now we should go in, we should stop this guy, which would be very easy and very quick. We could do it surgically, stop him from doing it, and save these lives. This is absolutely nuts. We don’t want to get involved and you’re gonna end up with something like you’ve never seen before."
And then ...
"But we have go in to save these lives; these people are being slaughtered like animals," Trump said. "It’s horrible what’s going on; it has to be stopped. We should do on a humanitarian basis, immediately go into Libya, knock this guy out very quickly, very surgically, very effectively, and save the lives."
Trump continued.
"You talk about things that have happened in history; this could be one of the worst," Trump said. "Now we should go in, we should stop this guy, which would be very easy and very quick. We could do it surgically, stop him from doing it, and save these lives. This is absolutely nuts. We don’t want to get involved and you’re gonna end up with something like you’ve never seen before."
And then ...
"But we have go in to save these lives; these people are being slaughtered like animals," Trump said. "It’s horrible what’s going on; it has to be stopped. We should do on a humanitarian basis, immediately go into Libya, knock this guy out very quickly, very surgically, very effectively, and save the lives."