Edo

hmmm I like the way you have interlinked the advancement in society with religion (or the lack of). I wonder what have countries like Bulgaria, Latvia, North Korea, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Argentina, Cuba etc etc done so wrong to be "at the bottom of most technological, artistic and scientific acheievement" even though they have amongst the highest no. of athiest population in the world.

Norm_uk

It was a generalisation based on evidence. Of course there will be exeptions to the rule...

Then again those were not particularly good examples that you gave there. Especially the your exmaples of former states (given nearly all Communist states use Communism as a religion to gain obedience to the State). Also, Latvia and Bulgaria are not dreadful failed states...like North Korea.

According to Zuckerman's figures (2005) the countries with the highest numbers of atheists/agnostics are:

Sweden
Denmark
Norway
Japan
Czech Republic
Finland
France
South Korea
Israel
Germany

Most other figures have the same sort countries listed - none are especially bad places to live and most have low rates of infant mortality, good rates of literacy, reasonable crime levels, many are wealthy, prosperous and attract lots of economic migrants. Most have high numbers of Nobel prize winners, file many patents for useful inventions that improve the lifes of millions and are reasonble stable politically.

Please by all means make a list of most religious states on earth which are wonderful places to live, invent tons of useful things, have decent education, and are basically wonderful...if you can.

N.

Edo

Some good information there and I do agree with your point about the 'rich' countries you have listed above. Zuckerman's figures do come from a lot of very poor countries (some of which I listed in my post) but what I was trying to say was that we cannot just assume that a largest no. of athiest/agonistic believers mean that a country will be at the top of most technological, artistic and scientific acheievement. Having recently been to Bulgaria and Latvia and Romania where foreigners are told to avoid going into inner towns even in broad daylight means they have a long way to go to ensure security for the people even though they are now part of the 'new EU'. Although I stand to do some more research about those and the other countries I listed in my post to find out about things like how many nobel prizes they have won (btw a bit off the track but interestingly last time I checked I saw Bush and Blair being nominated for them for 'promoting' peace in the world), how many patents they have filed in their histories, how many economic migrants they have attracted from rest of the world. I know you have conveniently chosen only the best ones from the list but do you have any idea how the family system is collapsing in those countries? How things like teenage pregnancy, suicide rates, divorces, alcohol related crimes etc etc are becoming issues of their societies that their governments are just helpless to tacke?

The problem with the modern world is that it just finds so easy to blame religion for everything and measures standards only on material things.

Aikman7981

Vatican City? Any other theocracies out there not in this part of the world?

Investoman_uae

Lets look at this from another angle.... what would it be like for an arab to go to Israel The answer is obvious.

The political situation right now affected everyone's mentality in the Middle East. I kno Jews and Arabs on an individual basis work togather and respect each other.... thats going on in UK and I know a few examples.

Arabs do not hate Jews, they are hate Zionists. There is a huge difference here. Dont forget that Arabs and Jews are cousins from the same descendents, Prophet Ebraham.

Many arab friends said they would respect a god fearing practicing Jew more than a satan worshipping zionist with an agenda of supportin the oppression of the Palestinian People. Same applies to far right bush loving pro Israeli Americans.

I think thats a mutual feelings not just amongst Arabs but the whole world.

Inv.

Aikman7981

I believe what you've said, but I think its worth remembering that what you have described applies only to rational, fairly informed people.

There are plenty of folks here and of all creeds that are incapable of making those distinctions.

I have no idea who is in the majority but I think we know who talks the loudest.

benzonar

How do you mean "measures standards on material things"?
When you say material things do you mean things we can see or touch?

Let's agree a few things.
Some religious people are nice.
Some religious people are nasty.
Some atheist people are nice.
Some atheist people are nasty.
There are literally thousands of gods.
The difference between a monotheist and an atheist is simply a lack of disbelief in one of them.

captainflack

I don't think a jewish person would have any problems coming to Dubai. Most arab countries have issues with Israel, not with jews. If he's worried about having 'Jewish' as religion on his documents just in case he meets people who don't know the difference between 'jew' and 'israeli' then he could always just say he is Christian instead. As someone else pointed out, jewish would be far preferably to 'atheist'. Consequently I am a christian officially

Regarding the claim that North Korea is atheist, it most certainly is not. The Kim dynasty are worshipped as gods, no exaggeration there. I recall a documentary I saw recently about some Nepalese eye surgeon on a trip to do 1000 cataract surgeries - once the patients removed their bandages and could see again, they all charge up to the front where a big portrait of Kim Jong Il was and profess thanks for the Great Leader healing them. US evangelism is the closest thing I could compare it to. I've been to both north and south borders of NK and I can tell you it is not a pretty place. Think Stoke-on-Trent but without any electricity.

Norm_uk

There's a lot of Arabs in Israel who have passports and voting rights...and many Arabs who visit Israel every year without major incident.

How many Israeli's can visit any of the GCC states? How many Jews have Syrian, Lebanese or Saudi passports? How many Jews can vote or run for office in the Arab world?

N.

Norm_uk

Everyone is an atheist about at least one god, usually several. Muslims, Christians and Jews are atheist towards Krishna, Thor, Zeus, Ares and a host of other deities.

Some atheists however just go one god further than the others...that's the only real difference.

N.

captainflack

Indeed, I worked in Germany a decade or so ago and we produced a lot of kit for Ben Gurion Airport. Some of the subcontractors were egyptian and Jordanian too I think. That said, this was during a relatively peaceful era.

I think there is a lot of misunderstandings wider afied, similarly to how 'Irish' americans in NY would be rude to brits going into an Irish bar, but the real Irish guys working there would be cool and talk to you about the football and whatever. The American guys were clearly removed from the whole thing, and just assumed that ireland and the UK were basically at war.

Cham128

A canadian/ lebanese friend of mine came with me to dubai last time i was out there, her last name is osman and the israeli's now use her first name for a charity out there. it took her ages to get through immigration and I told her they thought she was jewish, and she said "but I spoke to them in arabic, although they would only respond in english" I said that's because they thought you were mossad lol