London Embassy DCF - Help pls
Oct 19th 2009, 8:44 am
#121
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Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
Just looking at the 1040 online:
Line 22 is Total Income
Line 37 is Adjusted Gross Income.
Looking at the I864:
For the section about this year's income. Question 23 "My current individual income is" he puts in the amount from Line 22 on his 1040 and then, as he's not adding anyone elses income he puts the SAME amount down again for Question 24c Total Household Income.
Then for question 25 Federal Income Tax return information for the YEars 2008, 2007 and 2006 he puts down his adjusted gross income , which is line 37 on the 1040.
If I'm correct with the above, then which amount (line 22 or line 37 from the 1040) has to be the amount that's 125% of the poverty guidelines?
Line 22 is Total Income
Line 37 is Adjusted Gross Income.
Looking at the I864:
For the section about this year's income. Question 23 "My current individual income is" he puts in the amount from Line 22 on his 1040 and then, as he's not adding anyone elses income he puts the SAME amount down again for Question 24c Total Household Income.
Then for question 25 Federal Income Tax return information for the YEars 2008, 2007 and 2006 he puts down his adjusted gross income , which is line 37 on the 1040.
If I'm correct with the above, then which amount (line 22 or line 37 from the 1040) has to be the amount that's 125% of the poverty guidelines?
Last edited by frank09; Oct 19th 2009 at 8:45 am. Reason: spelling
Oct 19th 2009, 9:02 am
#122
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,049
Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
f,
Questions 23 and 24 are asking for current income, not past FIT information.
The instruction for question 25 is quite clear as to what number to provide. But as I said previously, if additional information would be to your benefit, include a reference to an attached sheet containing the information(e.g. income not taxed, such as SS income).
Regards, JEff
Questions 23 and 24 are asking for current income, not past FIT information.
The instruction for question 25 is quite clear as to what number to provide. But as I said previously, if additional information would be to your benefit, include a reference to an attached sheet containing the information(e.g. income not taxed, such as SS income).
Regards, JEff
Just looking at the 1040 online:
Line 22 is Total Income
Line 37 is Adjusted Gross Income.
Looking at the I864:
For the section about this year's income. Question 23 "My current individual income is" he puts in the amount from Line 22 on his 1040 and then, as he's not adding anyone elses income he puts the SAME amount down again for Question 24c Total Household Income.
Then for question 25 Federal Income Tax return information for the YEars 2008, 2007 and 2006 he puts down his adjusted gross income , which is line 37 on the 1040.
If I'm correct with the above, then which amount (line 22 or line 37 from the 1040) has to be the amount that's 125% of the poverty guidelines?
Line 22 is Total Income
Line 37 is Adjusted Gross Income.
Looking at the I864:
For the section about this year's income. Question 23 "My current individual income is" he puts in the amount from Line 22 on his 1040 and then, as he's not adding anyone elses income he puts the SAME amount down again for Question 24c Total Household Income.
Then for question 25 Federal Income Tax return information for the YEars 2008, 2007 and 2006 he puts down his adjusted gross income , which is line 37 on the 1040.
If I'm correct with the above, then which amount (line 22 or line 37 from the 1040) has to be the amount that's 125% of the poverty guidelines?
Oct 19th 2009, 9:23 am
#123
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 58,687
Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
The Adjusted Gross Income will be the line which shows his income after the business deductions have been taken out (I think! LOL)
No....he doesn't put a previous tax return amount on Q 23 of the I-864. On that line, he puts his *current* annual income.
Rene
For the section about this year's income. Question 23 "My current individual income is" he puts in the amount from Line 22 on his 1040...
Rene
Oct 19th 2009, 9:32 am
#124
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Posts: 14,049
Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
No! Business deductions come off of business income on Schedule C. The only thing that makes it to the 1040 is the profit of the business, which is the business owner's personal income, and that goes into Total Income.
There are a couple of expenses for the self-employed that come off of Total Income to get to Adjusted Income, they are comparable to some items that make the difference between total income and federally taxed income for an employed person.
Regards, JEff
There are a couple of expenses for the self-employed that come off of Total Income to get to Adjusted Income, they are comparable to some items that make the difference between total income and federally taxed income for an employed person.
Regards, JEff
Oct 19th 2009, 9:45 am
#125
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Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
Ok.
Had long conversation with Dad. Was useful getting Rene's reply about Q23 on the I864 asking current income, ie not looking at last years tax return but his current income. It's tricky so I hope I can convey it properly:
So:
1) Current income. HE can provide me with letters from his 2 employers stating that he is paid $2100 a month, which would give him an income to put in Q23 of $25,200. That would be fine for the 125% poverty BUT..
2) Going through his 1040.. he deducts almost half oh his income as a self employed person and therefore his total income, in line 22 of his 1040 is ...$10,953. His gross income , line 37 is $10,176. Both these figures are way below the 125% but on the I864 it just says the figure in Q23 need to be 125%. ..
3) TO explain the low total/gross income , his schedule C on his 2008 return shows Profit/loss of $22,100 but he deducts his expenses from that to give the $10,000 and something figure
4) I have the answers about the assets but before we get to that, how do I handle this current information? Is his answer of $25,200 going to be ok for the 125% so he won't need to show assets? At the interview will there be a problem made that he is showing $25,000 income but in question 25 when he shows his last 3 years gross income it'll be far less than that?
Hope I've explained this OK. And continued thanks for your patience and help.
Had long conversation with Dad. Was useful getting Rene's reply about Q23 on the I864 asking current income, ie not looking at last years tax return but his current income. It's tricky so I hope I can convey it properly:
So:
1) Current income. HE can provide me with letters from his 2 employers stating that he is paid $2100 a month, which would give him an income to put in Q23 of $25,200. That would be fine for the 125% poverty BUT..
2) Going through his 1040.. he deducts almost half oh his income as a self employed person and therefore his total income, in line 22 of his 1040 is ...$10,953. His gross income , line 37 is $10,176. Both these figures are way below the 125% but on the I864 it just says the figure in Q23 need to be 125%. ..
3) TO explain the low total/gross income , his schedule C on his 2008 return shows Profit/loss of $22,100 but he deducts his expenses from that to give the $10,000 and something figure
4) I have the answers about the assets but before we get to that, how do I handle this current information? Is his answer of $25,200 going to be ok for the 125% so he won't need to show assets? At the interview will there be a problem made that he is showing $25,000 income but in question 25 when he shows his last 3 years gross income it'll be far less than that?
Hope I've explained this OK. And continued thanks for your patience and help.
Oct 19th 2009, 9:51 am
#126
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 58,687
Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
OK...He can only use his own personal income on the I-864 (not the total income), so that will be the $10,000-ish figure (Not the $20,000+ figure).
He can use his SS income as well.
He can use his house as an asset, the net value has to be 5x the amount he was lacking in income.
Rene
He can use his SS income as well.
He can use his house as an asset, the net value has to be 5x the amount he was lacking in income.
Rene
Oct 19th 2009, 9:53 am
#127
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Posts: 58,687
Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
Thanks JEff. As I was typing that, I wasn't sure it was right. Thanks for the clarification.
Rene
Rene
Oct 19th 2009, 9:56 am
#128
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,049
Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
f,
You say "his 2 employers", yet you also say that your father is self-employed?
I suspect that the $2,100 per month is business income. This is not your father's income. After sbtracting business expenses what's left is your father's income. The numbers sound consistent with what you say are his past income tax figures. And that's likely what the consular officer will say also when he looks at the I-864 and the past tax returns.
But let's not forget the SS income - what's his income when both the ~$10,000 business income and the [untaxed] SS income are considered?
Regards, JEff
You say "his 2 employers", yet you also say that your father is self-employed?
I suspect that the $2,100 per month is business income. This is not your father's income. After sbtracting business expenses what's left is your father's income. The numbers sound consistent with what you say are his past income tax figures. And that's likely what the consular officer will say also when he looks at the I-864 and the past tax returns.
But let's not forget the SS income - what's his income when both the ~$10,000 business income and the [untaxed] SS income are considered?
Regards, JEff
Ok.
Had long conversation with Dad. Was useful getting Rene's reply about Q23 on the I864 asking current income, ie not looking at last years tax return but his current income. It's tricky so I hope I can convey it properly:
So:
1) Current income. HE can provide me with letters from his 2 employers stating that he is paid $2100 a month, which would give him an income to put in Q23 of $25,200. That would be fine for the 125% poverty BUT..
2) Going through his 1040.. he deducts almost half oh his income as a self employed person and therefore his total income, in line 22 of his 1040 is ...$10,953. His gross income , line 37 is $10,176. Both these figures are way below the 125% but on the I864 it just says the figure in Q23 need to be 125%. ..
3) TO explain the low total/gross income , his schedule C on his 2008 return shows Profit/loss of $22,100 but he deducts his expenses from that to give the $10,000 and something figure
4) I have the answers about the assets but before we get to that, how do I handle this current information? Is his answer of $25,200 going to be ok for the 125% so he won't need to show assets? At the interview will there be a problem made that he is showing $25,000 income but in question 25 when he shows his last 3 years gross income it'll be far less than that?
Hope I've explained this OK. And continued thanks for your patience and help.
Had long conversation with Dad. Was useful getting Rene's reply about Q23 on the I864 asking current income, ie not looking at last years tax return but his current income. It's tricky so I hope I can convey it properly:
So:
1) Current income. HE can provide me with letters from his 2 employers stating that he is paid $2100 a month, which would give him an income to put in Q23 of $25,200. That would be fine for the 125% poverty BUT..
2) Going through his 1040.. he deducts almost half oh his income as a self employed person and therefore his total income, in line 22 of his 1040 is ...$10,953. His gross income , line 37 is $10,176. Both these figures are way below the 125% but on the I864 it just says the figure in Q23 need to be 125%. ..
3) TO explain the low total/gross income , his schedule C on his 2008 return shows Profit/loss of $22,100 but he deducts his expenses from that to give the $10,000 and something figure
4) I have the answers about the assets but before we get to that, how do I handle this current information? Is his answer of $25,200 going to be ok for the 125% so he won't need to show assets? At the interview will there be a problem made that he is showing $25,000 income but in question 25 when he shows his last 3 years gross income it'll be far less than that?
Hope I've explained this OK. And continued thanks for your patience and help.
Last edited by jeffreyhy; Oct 19th 2009 at 9:59 am.
Oct 19th 2009, 10:08 am
#129
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Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 217
Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
f,
You say "his 2 employers", yet you also say that your father is self-employed?
I suspect that the $2,100 per month is business income. This is not your father's income. After sbtracting business expenses what's left is your father's income. The numbers sound consistent with what you say are his past income tax figures. And that's likely what the consular officer will say also when he looks at the I-864 and the past tax returns.
But let's not forget the SS income - what's his income when both the ~$10,000 business income and the [untaxed] SS income are considered?
Regards, JEff
You say "his 2 employers", yet you also say that your father is self-employed?
I suspect that the $2,100 per month is business income. This is not your father's income. After sbtracting business expenses what's left is your father's income. The numbers sound consistent with what you say are his past income tax figures. And that's likely what the consular officer will say also when he looks at the I-864 and the past tax returns.
But let's not forget the SS income - what's his income when both the ~$10,000 business income and the [untaxed] SS income are considered?
Regards, JEff
He IS self employed, and the letters arent from his emplyers but from the 2 people who are contracting him for his services, therefore his self emplyed business income is the figure od $2,100 (or so) , SO
1) To put the correct figure in Q23 he would seemingly need to get his accountant to prepare "something" that shows his income so far for 2009 and possibly his projected toal income for the year. Is there a term for this kind of document? If not, how does my dad go about working out what number to put in Q23.
2) His social security. On his 1040 for 2008 line 20a Social Security Benefits the amount is $8,508
3) Dad also get a pension from Germany paid directly into his account in the USA. Am I right in thinking that an overseas pension is an assett not income, and therefore not counted?
4) The tax returns are all filed jointly with my mum and the house and mortgage is in mum's name too. Does she need to fill in the I864a as the taxes arent just in dad's name?
Oct 19th 2009, 10:09 am
#130
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Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
HE doesnt pay taxes on his social securoty benefit money..
Oct 19th 2009, 10:12 am
#131
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 35,082
Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
Right Jeff and Rene - you're both right obiovusly!
He IS self employed, and the letters arent from his emplyers but from the 2 people who are contracting him for his services, therefore his self emplyed business income is the figure od $2,100 (or so) , SO
1) To put the correct figure in Q23 he would seemingly need to get his accountant to prepare "something" that shows his income so far for 2009 and possibly his projected toal income for the year. Is there a term for this kind of document? If not, how does my dad go about working out what number to put in Q23.
2) His social security. On his 1040 for 2008 line 20a Social Security Benefits the amount is $8,508
3) Dad also get a pension from Germany paid directly into his account in the USA. Am I right in thinking that an overseas pension is an assett not income, and therefore not counted?
4) The tax returns are all filed jointly with my mum and the house and mortgage is in mum's name too. Does she need to fill in the I864a as the taxes arent just in dad's name?
He IS self employed, and the letters arent from his emplyers but from the 2 people who are contracting him for his services, therefore his self emplyed business income is the figure od $2,100 (or so) , SO
1) To put the correct figure in Q23 he would seemingly need to get his accountant to prepare "something" that shows his income so far for 2009 and possibly his projected toal income for the year. Is there a term for this kind of document? If not, how does my dad go about working out what number to put in Q23.
2) His social security. On his 1040 for 2008 line 20a Social Security Benefits the amount is $8,508
3) Dad also get a pension from Germany paid directly into his account in the USA. Am I right in thinking that an overseas pension is an assett not income, and therefore not counted?
4) The tax returns are all filed jointly with my mum and the house and mortgage is in mum's name too. Does she need to fill in the I864a as the taxes arent just in dad's name?
The people who contract your father's service are his clients, not his employers.
Yes, his accountant could prepare a statement of expected earnings/expenses to come up with current income for 09. This is also the P&L Rene suggested earlier.
Add the $8508 to the $10K whatever, now you are getting somewhere.
The German pension is one he is collecting; it's income.
Personally I think it would be easier to just have mom do an I-864A, if she is willing.
Your parents' household size will be different from yours. Even if you live in the same house!
Oct 19th 2009, 10:21 am
#132
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,049
Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
f,
I sense progress.
1) yes, have the accountant project business income and business expenses thus far this year to come up with year-end numbers. The difference is your father's projected current income from his business for Q's 23 & 24.
2) include your father's projected total 2009 SS income for Q's 23 & 24.
3) include your father's projected total 2009 pension income from Germany for Q's 23 & 24. (This income should also be on his tax returns, line 16a. If it isn't have the accountant provide an explanation for why it isn't)
Provide a simple table showing the components of the Q23 current income as an attachment to the I-864. Also a table showing how the Q23 current income number is consistent with the Q25 FIT numbers since there is non-taxable income involved.
4) your father and mother need to prepare an I-864A is any of your mother's income or assets are included on you father's I-864. (e.g. if your father shows the jointly owned house)
I sense progress.
1) yes, have the accountant project business income and business expenses thus far this year to come up with year-end numbers. The difference is your father's projected current income from his business for Q's 23 & 24.
2) include your father's projected total 2009 SS income for Q's 23 & 24.
3) include your father's projected total 2009 pension income from Germany for Q's 23 & 24. (This income should also be on his tax returns, line 16a. If it isn't have the accountant provide an explanation for why it isn't)
Provide a simple table showing the components of the Q23 current income as an attachment to the I-864. Also a table showing how the Q23 current income number is consistent with the Q25 FIT numbers since there is non-taxable income involved.
4) your father and mother need to prepare an I-864A is any of your mother's income or assets are included on you father's I-864. (e.g. if your father shows the jointly owned house)
Right Jeff and Rene - you're both right obiovusly!
He IS self employed, and the letters arent from his emplyers but from the 2 people who are contracting him for his services, therefore his self emplyed business income is the figure od $2,100 (or so) , SO
1) To put the correct figure in Q23 he would seemingly need to get his accountant to prepare "something" that shows his income so far for 2009 and possibly his projected toal income for the year. Is there a term for this kind of document? If not, how does my dad go about working out what number to put in Q23.
2) His social security. On his 1040 for 2008 line 20a Social Security Benefits the amount is $8,508
3) Dad also get a pension from Germany paid directly into his account in the USA. Am I right in thinking that an overseas pension is an assett not income, and therefore not counted?
4) The tax returns are all filed jointly with my mum and the house and mortgage is in mum's name too. Does she need to fill in the I864a as the taxes arent just in dad's name?
He IS self employed, and the letters arent from his emplyers but from the 2 people who are contracting him for his services, therefore his self emplyed business income is the figure od $2,100 (or so) , SO
1) To put the correct figure in Q23 he would seemingly need to get his accountant to prepare "something" that shows his income so far for 2009 and possibly his projected toal income for the year. Is there a term for this kind of document? If not, how does my dad go about working out what number to put in Q23.
2) His social security. On his 1040 for 2008 line 20a Social Security Benefits the amount is $8,508
3) Dad also get a pension from Germany paid directly into his account in the USA. Am I right in thinking that an overseas pension is an assett not income, and therefore not counted?
4) The tax returns are all filed jointly with my mum and the house and mortgage is in mum's name too. Does she need to fill in the I864a as the taxes arent just in dad's name?
Oct 19th 2009, 10:29 am
#133
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Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 217
Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
f,
I sense progress.
1) yes, have the accountant project business income and business expenses thus far this year to come up with year-end numbers. The difference is your father's projected current income from his business for Q's 23 & 24.
2) include your father's projected total 2009 SS income for Q's 23 & 24.
3) include your father's projected total 2009 pension income from Germany for Q's 23 & 24. (This income should also be on his tax returns, line 16a. If it isn't have the accountant provide an explanation for why it isn't)
Provide a simple table showing the components of the Q23 current income as an attachment to the I-864. Also a table showing how the Q23 current income number is consistent with the Q25 FIT numbers since there is non-taxable income involved.
4) your father and mother need to prepare an I-864A is any of your mother's income or assets are included on you father's I-864. (e.g. if your father shows the jointly owned house)
I sense progress.
1) yes, have the accountant project business income and business expenses thus far this year to come up with year-end numbers. The difference is your father's projected current income from his business for Q's 23 & 24.
2) include your father's projected total 2009 SS income for Q's 23 & 24.
3) include your father's projected total 2009 pension income from Germany for Q's 23 & 24. (This income should also be on his tax returns, line 16a. If it isn't have the accountant provide an explanation for why it isn't)
Provide a simple table showing the components of the Q23 current income as an attachment to the I-864. Also a table showing how the Q23 current income number is consistent with the Q25 FIT numbers since there is non-taxable income involved.
4) your father and mother need to prepare an I-864A is any of your mother's income or assets are included on you father's I-864. (e.g. if your father shows the jointly owned house)
1) When it comes to the projected SS figures, what can we submit as "proof"?
2) I don't believe Germany is on the tax return, and I'm not sure why either. I think this is just something my dad didnt realise he needs to add to it. IS this going to be a problem? Will it be better to not mention that at all (which would then lead us back to having to use the asset of the house as his total amount will be less than 125%)
3) I understand that if dad will need to show the house then him and my mum will need to fo the I864A. If he doesn't need to show the house as asset then even if mum is the joint filer of the return will it be OK not to have the I864a? (I think I understand that the I864a is for assets I'm just not clear about the tax return being in both parents names)
Thanks!
Oct 19th 2009, 10:37 am
#134
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Posts: 217
Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
Got the amount of his German pension:
Roughly $400 a month (depending on exchange rate)
BUT it isnt listed on his tax return.
If we can use it then if I add up his roughly $10,000 income, plus $8,500 ss benefit, plus roughly $4800 German pension then he's at $23,300 which is over the 125%. However, theres the problem that the German pension isnt on his tax return, and my dad can't find any documentation from Germany. Would 3 months worth of bank statements showing the direct payment into his account be sufficient proof? Seeing as he's not showing that on his tax return, are we better off not including that income at all?
Roughly $400 a month (depending on exchange rate)
BUT it isnt listed on his tax return.
If we can use it then if I add up his roughly $10,000 income, plus $8,500 ss benefit, plus roughly $4800 German pension then he's at $23,300 which is over the 125%. However, theres the problem that the German pension isnt on his tax return, and my dad can't find any documentation from Germany. Would 3 months worth of bank statements showing the direct payment into his account be sufficient proof? Seeing as he's not showing that on his tax return, are we better off not including that income at all?
Oct 19th 2009, 11:08 am
#135
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 35,082
Re: London Embassy DCF - Help pls
Do you know the nature of the pension? Is it regular state retirement benefits like Social Security, or is it from a company he was with for a long time, or is it from some sort of government service employment (military, police etc)?
There may be a treaty that doesn't require him to report it, but they are rare. Normally, US citizens must declare their worldwide income (he's supposed to report certain foreign bank accounts too) but he should not be double taxed in most cases.
edit: the treaty is here if anyone wants to look through it http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/germany.pdf
