Re: What a cop out...
 

Course he is...obvious innit....what's the matter with you people. :cool: Though I will concede, a belt in the mouth tends to offend, deserved or otherwise....ya pays your money, ya takes your chances...dontcha....

Re: What a cop out...
 

District Judge Daphne Wickham found no evidence had been provided to show use of the baton was not measured or correct.

She said: "It was for the prosecution to prove this defendant was not acting in lawful self-defence.

"The prosecution has failed in this respect and the defendant has raised the issue of lawful self-defence and as such is entitled to be acquitted."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/8597217.stm

Ms Fisher, who did not give evidence at the trial because she feared her lifestyle may be raised by the defence, said she was "disappointed" by the verdict.

She added: "I'm just glad it's all over. It has been a nightmare.

"I stand by what I said."

Re: What a cop out...
 

I wonder what the reaction to that decision will be?

Re: What a cop out...
 

As I said earlier, nothing surprises me when it comes to the UK courts. Does anyone thing that a jury would have come to the same conclusion?

Re: What a cop out...
 

Seems fair.....why should the burden of proof be any lower because the accused (now acquitted) was a cop....give your head a shake!

The Prosecution was to a great extent, brought on the grounds of political expediency....and in the light of the evidence the prosecution offered, should never have been pursued in the first place...which would have been the likely outcome if the accused had been anyone else. e'g. not a police officer

Re: What a cop out...
 

I think a fair jury would.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Ditto....case was no where near proved, never mind beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Dunno, the video seemed pretty compelling to me.

It seems to me that the aquittal was based on a legal technicality regarding the way the case was prosecuted rather than any position of moral authority. It comes as no surprise though.

Re: What a cop out...
 

There will be a predictable reaction from the usual suspects.

I see the Tomlinson investigation is still ongoing. Although there was much less physical contact than the Fisher episode it's the casualness of the police in just shoving him over when there was no threat that looks bad.

Re: What a cop out...
 

The policeman made a reasonable case for lawful self defence. Prosecution couldn't prove he didn't act in lawful self defence. Seems clear cut not a technicality.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Ah yes, that terrifying orange juice carton, I can understand his fear:rolleyes:

Re: What a cop out...
 

To be honest, having been there, done that so to speak, given the circumstances of the protest, my first thought would have been 'what's in the carton???'...orange juice it may have been, however, I for one would have acted on the basis that it may have not been...Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6!

A result for common sense and natural justice IMHO :thumbup:

As the old saying goes, you have had to have been in similar circumstances (perhaps) to understand my reasoning.

Re: What a cop out...
 

I have been in a similar circumstance and I do understand your reasoning.

He was acquitted and, as a member of the legal profession, I accept that the right decision was made.

I would imagine he will experience a hard time from his colleagues and will now be a target for the more unsavoury members of society.

Re: What a cop out...
 

With regard to your last sentence I fear you are correct. I would hope his colleagues (other than his Senior officers , of the 'Career comes first' mentality) will be in the main supportive (they would have been in my day) and the hard time you speak of from his immediate colleagues being more in line with 'taking the piss' than anything else.

I suspect he will get a desk job somewhere till matters fade a little before he can resume his career which is unfortunate but that's the way it go's

Re: What a cop out...
 

A fair point.

But looking at it another way, had it not been a cop but someone else acting that way...say a football fan faced with a fan of a rival team, or a couple of people in a taxi queue do you think we'd have a similar outcome?
:sneaky:

Re: What a cop out...
 

I doubt he will get a hard time from his rank and file colleagues. Not too sure about the senior ranks though!

Tim

Re: What a cop out...
 

If the court were satisfied that the person in the dock was acting in self defence...yes.

Re: What a cop out...
 

No doubt he will get lots of orange cartons waved at him to try to provoke him when he returns to the beat!

Re: What a cop out...
 

The police officer showed restraint and professionalism in my opinion. There were clear warnings made, a clear cascade of force from verbal to light pushing to an open handed slap to use of a baton on a green area.

He was in the middle of a large group that was flashing and had multiple possible threat points to observe. Any fast moving person coming within his space would have been considered a threat esp with something in their hand. At times like that you do not have time to see if it is fresh OJ or apple or indeed if it is juice is it frozen so becomes an effective weapon, is it an acid or pepper mix to be sprayed in my face to incapacitate my vision making me ineffective and thus a target and a drain on my services effectiveness to police the protest?

The only reasons this was taking to the courts is because he is an officer and the video. My recent experience in the UK is that if this was civillian on civillian at a taxi rank on a typical friday night the beat bobbies would have taken names and sent them on their own ways. No charges .............

Food for thought really - we need to support the police - they need to be held accountable yes but we also have to understand that they are willing to put themselves into situations that most other people would run away from.

Right decision but the officer should not have been put through it in this case. Not to say they should not be reviewed.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Hands up if you are or ever have been a police officer;)

Re: What a cop out...
 

So you don't think the fact that he was a police officer influenced proceedings or outcome in any way then.

A football fan or clubber would have been treated the same way?:blink:


I like to believe the best of people but I can't see it myself.:(

Just seen the other comment about how it only got to court because it was a cop and elsewhere names would have been taken and no further action.

I'm sure plenty of people will say otherwise. With good reason. That would include my brother. On more than one occasion.:eek:

Re: What a cop out...
 

The system is far from perfect however it's preferable to that of many other places in the world. I am no stranger to odd decisions by both Judges & Juries.

I do know of occasions when cases have gone to court against a police officer when had he been a bus driver, carpenter etc it is unlikely that proceedings would have been taken. It goes with the territory...all in society are accountable...on occasion some are just more accountable than others.

As to the case in point, I say again the burden of proof was way short of that to secure a conviction given the charge preferred by the Crown however given the publicity etc it's just as well it did end up in court. Now we have an aquittal...end of!

Re: What a cop out...
 

Nah he's guilty and I don't even think he got off. His career is all but over; or at least set back a decade - that's an appropriate punishment I reckon.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Ahhhh...verdict did not go your way then? How sad, too bad never mind....Sounds like a dummy being spat ;)

As to his career...not so sure it is but a hiccup....seen more senior officers recover from worse that this in a surprisingly short time all things considered.

Time will tell....but try not to loose too much sleep over your apparent set back:)

Re: What a cop out...
 

You overstate how much I care. If you look back on my previous posts in this thread I actually said the damage done to his career was punishment enough.

Re: What a cop out...
 

My hands are up.............you now have me at your mercy.........don't hit me around the legs.......I am armed with a tasty beverage:)

Re: What a cop out...
 

Fair point Iain. However, by the very fact some of us have been/are, allows us to see the matter from the 'sharp end' so to speak and appreciate a different perspective perhaps not apparent to others. As you say, the video seemed compelling and a 'slam dunk' as they say down south, but otherwise has proved to be the case.

He was deemed to be acting in self defence and in so doing the force used was deemed appropriate. His own Force may well be looking at taking action against him (on the grounds of Political Expediency) however, I find it difficult to see how....but.as as far as the 'Rubber heels' are concerned, anything is possible....

I can but wish him the very best of luck....as I reach for an extremely tasty beverage....:cool:

Re: What a cop out...
 

My personal view is that this prosecution was doomed from the start as I feel that other interested parties appeared to have 'persuaded' the 'victim' to make the initial complaint......she appeared to be a very reluctant witness......also..... although to others the strikes to legs may appear severe...........they are a long way down the continuum of force scale......at the same end as shouting very loudly.....pushing......open palm slaps.....but a long way from non lethal options......

Re: What a cop out...
 

Thats one way of looking at it, or perhaps the daily interaction with the less saviourary elements of society has skewed your perception of what is normal acceptable behaviour and what isnt:sneaky:

Re: What a cop out...
 

That is one thing I feel with respect, you are out of order with. Having been exposed at one time or another to pretty much (but not all I am sure) all aspects of evil in society, I am in a pretty good position to judge what is acceptable and what is not....perhaps more than most....

The right of self defence...and the use of reasonable force is open to all.....including police officers. At the end of the day, as in this case, the courts are the adjudicator.

Re: What a cop out...
 

That is entirely contradictory.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Well, yes, the courts have adjucated, not a jury mind, but the courts.

My point is (in part) that due to the nature of the job and the fact they they deal with the arse end of society day in day out, police officers are perhaps more likely to think they are being threatened than the average bystander when dealing with an irate and noisy protester, and they are certainly better trained than most in applying physical means to reduce that threat at an early opportunity, regardless of how it might have played out otherwise.

I dont think that in this case that makes the police the best people to judge whether striking this woman with a metal baton was the appropriate course of action, annoying as she was. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree over what was appropriate in that case, I certainly wouldnt want to have been in either of their positions. Reading through this thread it seems that (generalisation alert) all the ex and current coppers think it was OK to beat her like that, but the majority of the rest think it was pretty out of order, so something about being a cop changes your perspective on this issue.

Re: What a cop out...
 

In your opinion...which of course you are entitled to.

Re: What a cop out...
 

No, your statement was contradictory. This isn't opinion, it's fact.

You said "I'm a better judge of normal behaviour because I deal with all kinds of bad behaviour". Feel free to clarify what you actually meant.

Re: What a cop out...
 

I meant that having seen both sides, behaviour wise...I could be a little more objective, that was all. I thought that was clear...but perhaps not clear enough....I must give my proof reader a sound thrashing...first having provided her with some orange juice to take away....

Re: What a cop out...
 

I doubt a fair jury would have come to a different conclusion. Theres not exactly an uproar in the media over the verdict.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/ma...d-baton-charge

If anything the policeman showed restaint in his actions taking into account the circumstances.

The other perspective is that, in this thread, there appears to be a correlation between tolerance of Ms Fisher's action and sympathy for the political position of the G20 protesters. If it had been an "unsavoury" character from a far right organisation protesting about something who had been hit instead, I think some of those who are describing Ms Fisher as a victim now would be rather quiet instead.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Have you been hit by a police officer while demonstrating? If you haven't, then how have you seen this from both sides? I would suggest that, far from looking at this objectively, you are looking at it subjectively.

Re: What a cop out...
 

The police officer showed restraint!

By such logic, I assume you think it would be perfectly OK for a regular person to hit a "hoodie" with a stick if said hoodie screamed something in their face?

I would agree with Iaink. The non police officers find the actions of the officer excessive, the police officers or former officers don't. Such would suggest that, given a jury of BE members, the officer would have been convicted, unless there were a sufficient number of police officers in the jury.

When all is said and done, the Court has made its decision and I doubt any of us will know what evidence is actually produced. My experience is that, what the media says happened in a trial, is rarely what actually happened.

Re: What a cop out...
 

i never said it was right or wrong for the amount of force to be used, beat her up, however you want to term it. my issue was simply it appeared that a different set of rules was being followed in order to proceed with this prosecution.
i am glad i was wrong, the norm prevailed and what i pointed out earlier would happen in a normal trial, happened here, case dropped due to lack of evidence. whether you like it or not this is a standard common assault case and what i should have expected happen, has happened, video not withstanding.

as for the jury bit, the judge would have directed them accordingly or ended the case at the half way point due to a lack of case proved, so it would not have mattered whether it was before a jury or not.

as for having him punished internally, as it appears the not guilty verdict is not good enough for some this is something i would expect. it will be tried on a civil base, proved or not on the balance of probabilities, rather than beyond reasonable doubt, a much lower standard. this again raises my point of the police being held to a much higher standard, not many professions would go through the wringer again internally when found not guilty by the courts. is this not enough!

Re: What a cop out...
 

Except lawyers, doctors etc:rofl::p