Re: What a cop out...
 

Is this the "Jury of his peers" argument? I'm sure a jury made up only of coppers would be somewhat beneficial to his cause, but even they may have a hard time with the perceived physical threat aspect of the juice carton.

Re: What a cop out...
 

rae, I asked this before. I'd like an example of something from her past that could possibly have bearing in this case - something that officer smellie would have to have known about at the time of the beating to justify it? I can't think of one thing, but I'm not a legal expert.

Re: What a cop out...
 

i'm not trying to excuse what he did alan, and his prior knowledge of her does have a bearing with regard to the ACPO use of force model. such as a prior occasion where he may have arrested her for assault, then found she had a weapon hidden on her. on seeing her this day and recognizing her, it would be perfectly reasonable given the past encounter to suspect a higher level of force may be necessary to achieve his aim.

but i am not talking as much about the incident as the way it is being tried in public and the nature of the evidence being presented, this guy has been convicted before he ever sees the light of a courtroom.
i don't think i have said anywhere he is justified in what he did, because if it happened exactly as it was portrayed then clearly he has lost it momentarily and lashed out. i would not try to defend that as it would be clearly wrong of me.

Re: What a cop out...
 

:DSo what, the police are trained to deal with that, its their job. He lost his rag and overreacted. The fact he cant see why he was suspended still is a bit scary. I wonder if an apology was ever forthcoming under the circumstances.

He obviously cant come out and say she annoyed the tits off him so he hit her, as that would be assault, so we have the orange juice carton perceived as weapon thing in order to justify bringing her down.... but I dont think thats helping his credibility any. Has he even said with hind-site that it was a mistake and that he regrets his actions? That would go a long way in helping him in the court of public opinion I think.

Re: What a cop out...
 

with regard to the first bit alan you may do, but here is my point again, it would never see a courtroom without a statement bare minimum of complaint against you, of this i am certain.

the police should be held to a higher account absolutely, but this should come also with some acceptance that they will find themselves in situations on a regular basis that the average citizen will not. if you police these events over and over again year after year then sooner or later something like this is going to be happen. should that excuse his actions, no of course not, but i do think this should be taken into account.

with regard to the higher standards you will see much higher and more severe punishments handed out to the police over a civilian. drunk driving for instance, instant job loss. not many other occupations do that.

Re: What a cop out...
 

The video evidence is damning - he overstepped the mark considerably. You might argue mitigating circumstances, but that won't change the fact that it looks like assault. fwiw I don't think he deserves prison or anything like that, although he does need to be punished, but given that this is probably career ending for him and all he has to look forward to is a life of security work I think that is more (well a lot more proportionate to the harm caused) than enough.

Re: What a cop out...
 

just for your amusement the worst assault i suffered was from a 18yr old slip of a girl who as i turned my back on her picked up a pool ball and smacked me on the back of the head with it. judge a book by its cover at your peril.

Re: What a cop out...
 

The only issue here is whether he acted reasonably, not whether she had past convictions for anything.

I have to admit that it concerns me somewhat that a serving police officer can't see the wood for the trees. You are usually the epitome of sensibility. OK, you aren't, but I've got to make you feel good somehow:p

Re: What a cop out...
 

Ahem. Police are civilians. The forgetting of which, I respctfully suggest, is at the root of much of the negative vibes from protestors such as Little Miss Lentils.

Re: What a cop out...
 

I doubt you beat her with your big stick because of it. Although I bet that was the last time you turned your back on potential assailants even slips of girls.

Re: What a cop out...
 

i think its a complete joke and he is making himself and the rest of us look like total tools. i've been in the shit a few times and the best advice i ever had from an old inspector was fall on your sword. if you have done wrong cough it and move on, we all make mistakes. what he should be saying is in the heat of the moment, in a highly charged situation, fearing for his safety he lashed out. (don't forget there was more than her there, off camera to the left of the screen is where he initially faces) in hindsight this was unreasonable, unjustified and unwarranted and will accept whatever comes his way to make up for it.
hows that.

Re: What a cop out...
 

sorry it may have got lost, previous answer with regard to prior arrests.

Re: What a cop out...
 

If the met and him had come out immediately and apologized - even visiting the girl in question to do so I doubt it would have gone any further. As guilty as that guy probably is, I don't think any of us are under any illusion that this is anything but a PR exercise for the met that is in dire need of some good publicity.

Re: What a cop out...
 

i'm not saying its not alan. i'm obviously not making myself clear, i just hope you can trust me on this one. the way this prosecution is being handled is not the norm, special circs for the cops. now as i have said as its in the publics interest i can understand this, i just find it galling though that a normal judicial procedure for a case of this nature involving a civilian is not followed because its a cop. its one thing to proceed in the publics interest, but the rules are being bent a bit too much for that in this case for my liking.

Re: What a cop out...
 

i agree, thats not my point. my point is that the normal judicial procedure is being bent well out of shape, more so than a normal public prosecution because of the publicity surrounding the case. come on mate, no statements, no witnesses i could bloody defend that and win, video or no video. in fact the presence of the video would be the one thing undermining the entire case, its airing everywhere has created a prejudicial environment not conducive to a fair trial.
that will be 10 grand and a law degree please sir.

Re: What a cop out...
 

thats a fair point, easiest term to use. i'm in canada now, PC has been drained out of me.

Re: What a cop out...
 

no on both counts i'm afraid. i'm afraid you forget, get complacent and its only a matter of time before it happens again.
my female partner punched her square in the mouth and knocked her front tooth out apparently. i don't recall i was out of it on the floor.

Re: What a cop out...
 

I doubt he had the option to do that. The force, his union, the government as liability carrier in the event a related civil action, would all have an interest in what he had to say. I very much doubt he sat alone and decided that the juice was a threat to him.

Re: What a cop out...
 

right i'm off to work anyway, leave you folks with it. let you know if i terrorize any 'members of the public/customers/citizens' with guns, tasers and sticks.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Oh, he's a fall guy for institutionalized stupidity all right. The way that the police deal with this kind of demo is dreadful - I've been to a couple in my time and the way they box people in just encourages people to behave the way that girl is doing. Somebody senior should have resigned over this; and over the newspaper guy who died on his way home; and especially over the mendez cover up etc. But we both know that isn't ever going to happen.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Quite.

Re: What a cop out...
 

I don't think it has to be something that he has to have known but something that could influence someone in their verdict.

That's not the way it should be, of course, but in this thread there are comments suggesting she deserved it and that's without even knowing her behaviour; just assumptions about her.

It's not too far a stretch that a jury or magistrates would be influenced negatively about her and be less likely to go for a guilty verdict.

It wouldn't be the first time would it?

As for video evidence, I recall a similar case many years ago where a policeman was seen kicking someone - although it was a photo rather than film/video. Somehow a not guilty verdict was returned. :confused:

Re: What a cop out...
 

People read too many stories about trials. The simple issue here is whether he acted reasonably. Her chaviness is not an issue, what she did, to a large extent is not an issue, what is an issue is whether he used excessive force. If he did, he will be convicted, if he didn't, he won't. Simple as:thumbsup:

Re: What a cop out...
 

But there are real life examples, not just TV, where things other than evidence has influenced outcomes.

There was even one famous case where the judge effectively said the jury had ignored the evidence. :sneaky:

Re: What a cop out...
 

I had a look at the article from the first day of the trial.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/8580211.stm

Rather than it being a deliberate legal strategy to just rely on the video it seems that she simply failed to turn up in court, as did her b/f who is also a witness in the trial. Her witness statement was excluded.

Apparently she "doubts" the abilities of the prosecution team.

It also seems she did make the complaint originally as did another protestor. It was considered there wasn't enough evidence in the other complaint to bring a case.

At what stage does she become liable for wasting everyones time?

Re: What a cop out...
 

There are. I won an appeal once because I alleged the judge had fallen asleep for more than 50% of the evidence. It was civil trial so no jury:D

Re: What a cop out...
 

Or was he just resting his eyes?:rofl:

Re: What a cop out...
 

Why are many of you referring to the woman as a girl??

Re: What a cop out...
 

Chick, then. A hippy chick.

Re: What a cop out...
 

She must have been resting her eyes for a very long time. I kid you not, it was for hours at a time.

Fortunately my opponent, when asked whether what we were alleging was true, admitted that it was. Without that, I really don't know how successful the appeal would have been.

Re: What a cop out...
 

I did wonder as she is 36 or 37. I think someone even called her a "young girl" somewhere.

I think it fits more conveniently with the apparent "david and goliath" aspect of the confrontation.

Maybe we should call him a "policeboy"

Re: What a cop out...
 

For exaggerated emphasis to make a point. I'm surprised it's taken this long for anyone to notice;)

Re: What a cop out...
 

Here is the elusive Ms Fisher

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...ex/8005390.stm

His words in court........

"Not one photograph or piece of footage comes close to reflecting the fear as I turned around to see this crowd and its proximity, both to myself and my officers," he said. "At the time I thought, this is it: she is deliberately coming from a blind spot.

"The reason she is coming from a blind spot is to hide her intention so she can approach and attack her target – me."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/ma...-assault-trial

From other witnesses

A G20 protester allegedly assaulted by a policeman was "confrontational" and behaving like a "lunatic", two witnesses said yesterday.

Office worker Mark Ellul said he saw animal rights activist Nicola Fisher acting "like a cat on a hot tin roof" before her clash with Sgt Delroy Smellie last April.

Colleague Tracey McDonnell said Ms Fisher, 36, from Brighton, was "playing up to the cameras", being aggressive to police and throwing orange juice at Sgt Smellie.

He allegedly hit her with a baton. But both witnesses, giving evidence for the prosecution, said they contacted the Independent Police Complaints Commission as coverage of the London incident was "inaccurate and unfair on him". Mr Ellul told Westminster JPs: "Nicola Fisher charged at the officer. She was right up in his face." Miss McDonnell said: "She was, I hate to say it, aggressive towards him."

Sgt Smellie, 47, denies assault. The case continues.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Oh dear.

The 'butter wouldn't melt' attitude, the feigned innocence, poor victim me - and Max Clifford as her PR agent!! .:lol:

I fear Sgt Smellie didn't hit her hard enough. ;)

Re: What a cop out...
 

Cue old joke,

"If Max Clifford's so good at PR, how come everyone thinks he's a ****?"

Re: What a cop out...
 

Ha ha! Me likee.

Re: What a cop out...
 

A speed camera can only prove that a number plate matching your vehicle's was at that time in that location. The ticket they send you allows you to either pay the fine (thereby admitting guilt), request a court date, or to name the person driving your vehicle at the time.

A speeding ticket does not 'convict' anyone, but merely allows the state to collect fines without requiring everyone to appear in court unless they choose to do so.

Re: What a cop out...
 

I love the fact that on the video, in she comments on the initial face slap, "...he struck me for no reason, i hadn't approached him, spoken to him, or anything...".

Yet the footage of the incident clearly shows her approach him, yell something, and then push the officer before he reacts and swipes her across the face.

Brilliant.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Quote from the defence lawyer on the first day:

Mr Paul added that the officer's defence team want to question Ms Fisher's reliability as a witness and wish to explore with her the fact that she was aggressive "in the moments up and until the physical confrontation".

It looks like Ms Fisher has answered the first part of that with the no show and the second part answered by the other witnesses who made the effort to contact the IPC.

Re: What a cop out...
 

He must be innocent then:(