Re: What a cop out...
 

Maybe he shouldn't but that doesn't mean it was assault. It may warrant a warning, training etc but that doesn't mean it was assault.

Re: What a cop out...
 

It would be assault if somebody swore at me in the street and I beat them with a stick.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Antagonising a policeman is not an offence. She didn't appear to hit him, he towered over her and had lots of colleagues around him for backup.

I have faced riots in Northern Ireland as part of HM Forces. Never did I feel the need to aimlessly hit people. The actions of the officer appear to come from frustration as opposed to genuine fear, something he is expected to be able to control.

Re: What a cop out...
 

A threat of unlawful violence is an assault. If I say to you, "I am going to punch you in the face" that is an assault.

Re: What a cop out...
 

How can you discredit her in relation to whether or not she was assaulted? That is the only issue here, not whether she has assaulted people in the past. The only issue is whether the officer used reasonable force.

Re: What a cop out...
 

In your view, based on what we see, is it reasonable force?

Re: What a cop out...
 

I think he was in a difficult situation faced with a persistantly aggressive individual with lots of noise and pushing and shoving going on around him and took steps to neutralise that threat. Given the situation he was in I don't think the action he took was completely unreasonable. Viewed now from computer/officeland it might well be considered unreasonable by some I agree.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Agreed.

I do find it sad that a woman who is basically a professional protestor - she is described in court as an animal rights activist - can't take the odd whack from a copper as an occupational hazard.

And it's sadder still that a 47-year-old Police Sergeant is basically perjuring himself rather than tell the truth.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Out of interest what happened after she was hit? Did she get arrested?

Re: What a cop out...
 

Erm, they do get training dont they?


No other officers there saw fit to assault anyone armed with a noisy gob (and a dangerous carton of juice) did they?

Yes, you are right, it IS easy to judge. He was frustrated and overreacted. Should it end his career? no probably not. Should we turn a blind eye? Certainly not.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Not a million miles from jingsamichty's "could be considered not unreasonable". In short, no one seems to be prepared to say that this is a proper way for a policeman to behave. Some will make concessions because of his job, effectively holding him to a lower standard of behaviour than applies to the public at large.

Obviously I don't think men should beat women with sticks except in the most extreme circumstances and that neither being verbal irksome nor being oppressively close physically constitutes an extreme circumstance. I think the orange juice defence might work against him; I find it difficult to think of a manner in which someone could be genuinely threatening while consuming a soft drink.

I think he might have arrested her without delivering the beating though I concede that it's hard to tell since we can't see the mob, if any, behind her.

Re: What a cop out...
 

A copper hitting a shrieking hippy....

As Oscar Wilde might have said, "the unspeakable chasing the inedible."

Re: What a cop out...
 

.

Re: What a cop out...
 

So what was this "situation" that made his actions reasonable?

He was an officer on duty at a rowdy protest, some shouting and confrontation is surely to be expected, and its certainly not illegal.

Even as a five year old I was familiar with "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me", and it seems this guy is too, hence the rather improbable "orange juice" threat defence I guess.

I still completely fail to see how that was regarded as sufficent danger to warrant his action, but I guess time will tell. The UK courts never fail to surprise me in the application of justice.

Re: What a cop out...
 

.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Where is is stated that she complained?

Re: What a cop out...
 

Yes, it does. If I did that to somebody then I would get done for assault.

The defenders on this board will probably say coppers should be held to a higher standard than the general public because of the power they have (in fact I think rae even said this). They then go on to describe how they should actually be held to a lower standard (as dbd said) because their job is difficult and frustrating - well get another job then as beating young girls half your size with a truncheon is not the behaviour of hard case no-nonsense coppers.

Re: What a cop out...
 

How do you define an assault?

Do you agree that police officers driving cars at high speeds should not be held to account if they run someone over, after all, aren't they just doing their jobs in that instance as well?

Should I be allowed to hit a police officer with a stick that if I feel threatened by him?

Re: What a cop out...
 

Look at the video - after the cop had cuffed her, she ran back remonstrating and pointing out that he'd just hit a woman, the fascist pig-dog.

Re: What a cop out...
 

I don't think that equates to going down the cop shop and pressing charges now does it.

Re: What a cop out...
 

OK. I meant in the prosecution sense.

You obviously think it is OK for men to hit women, I don't.

Re: What a cop out...
 

As a lawyer, I'm sure you know that it's not what you meant that matters, it's what you said.

You like leaping to conclusions, don't you? First, I was be "saying it's OK to shoot Brazilians on the Tube", and now "I obviously think it's OK for men to hit women."

Re: What a cop out...
 

That, my friend, would be a most interesting test case. I'm sure there are more than a few squats in Brighton eagerly awaiting the verdict in this case.

Re: What a cop out...
 

I am not acting as a lawyer here, I am posting on the internet. Fair enough, I sincerely apologise for any confusion I caused.


Use of excessive force by the police was the point I was trying to make. Once again, I apologise if you do believe it was wrong for a person with an authority and size advantage over a woman such that most people would assume the latter posed no real threat to the former to commit an assault.

Your reference to live by the sword, die by the sword, led me to this conclusion. So tell me then, did he do wrong by hitting her?

Re: What a cop out...
 

She is an adult isn't she?
What has gender got to do with it?
Size inequality doesn't mean that the larger person can't perceive a threat from a smaller person

Re: What a cop out...
 

At the risk of repeating myself...So what was this "threat" that made his actions reasonable?

Re: What a cop out...
 

Oh yeah I forgot about the deadly juice.

Gender, or more specifically size has everything to do with it.

Re: What a cop out...
 

So if it was a male bodybuilder instead it would be okay to wack him?

Re: What a cop out...
 

When is the verdict due?

Re: What a cop out...
 

Most people would be too scared to whack a male bodybuilder.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Where are you going with this? Nobody is going to object to reasonable force being used in a situation; had the sizes/genders been reversed then maybe it would be reasonable, although it would depend on what they were doing.

We can speculate all day on the what ifs, but the fact is that she wasn't a huge male body builder, she was a girl half his size and as such I fail to see how baton wielding could be considered by any normal person as 'reasonable' in this situation. It's far enough over the line of reasonable to constitute assault I think - obviously the CPS thinks so too.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Did he do wrong? No, in the circumstances, I don't necessarily think he did. He could have handled it better, but that's not the same thing as saying he was wrong. Remember - he didn't just walk up and whack a totally innocent bystander.

This woman chose to go to a protest. She chose to be vocal and antagonising. She made the mistake of viewing the copper as personification of what she was protesting about. She harangued him while he was trying to do his job and keep order. He warned her a few times, but oh no, Little Miss Lentils knew better, and whack! - she got brought back to earth.

If you go looking for trouble, don't be surprised when you find it.

I don't see what all the hand-wringing about size or gender has to do with it.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Imagine having this conversation with your parents:

"Dad, I went on a protest today and hassled a policeman, and he whacked me."

What would your Dad have said to that?

Re: What a cop out...
 

Oh come on, he whacked her two backhanders then moved closer to some other police officers, took out a truncheon and aimed at her from arms length.

What part of that is reasonable??

Re: What a cop out...
 

How many times should he have let her run up to him in that manner? Once? Twice? Ten times? All day?

Re: What a cop out...
 

i can't as she won't be appearing, thats more my point, we will never have the opportunity to know. if she had prior convictions for perjury though as you pointed out earlier this would have a bearing on her credibility.

Re: What a cop out...
 

You wait till it's something you feel strongly enough about to protest against. I personally don't think anyone deserves a beating because of a few words or because they are guilty of being very annoying - it's a protest ffs what do the cops expect is going to happen.

I think you are allowing your judgement of this girls political position to cloud your judgement.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Repeat after me.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones
But words will never hurt me"



She was at a protest about the death of someone at a previous protest. Shouting and some anger to be expected I think:rolleyes:

So yes, All day.

Re: What a cop out...
 

Rae, you're a copper. What do you make of Smellie's defence? What would the station locker room banter be about that?

Re: What a cop out...
 

Ah, the Moderator's poem. ;)

don't give me that cack, Iain. You know as well as I do that there are certain people who will protest about just about anything. The cause is irrelevant, it's just a jolly day out shouting at The Man.