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Old Mar 6th 2014 | 9:06 am
  #121  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by Novocastrian
A loving dream? I think you meant lebensraum.
I stand corrected, my cousins who stayed on the farm learned German but our family speak English only. Loving dream may suit some applications though.
 
Old Mar 6th 2014 | 11:00 pm
  #122  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by caretaker
That's right, it isn't similar to Austria either, it was a liebenstraum land grab like the rest of Europe was. The referendum over the future of Crimea was scheduled well before, just stepped up to March 16 and if voters cast ballots according to ethnicity should pass in favour of becoming part of Russia at that time.
Closing all the ports and blockading ships is Russia's response to what could be called a coup, the legality of that and if the charge of piracy applies has yet to be determined. When elections are held in Ukraine those responses will be judged.
The lease on Crimea allows Russia to garrison up to 40,000 troops there, so they can bring in another 25,000 if they want before they violate that agreement.
Re: consequences - I'm sure it's been brought to Mr. Putin's attention that he has been roundly criticized on this forum, and even if it doesn't change his course of action it's sure to weigh heavily on his mind.
I personally don't think that either the western world, the UN, and the international community would ever seriously recognize a referendum on the Crimea under the circumstances we have today.

Disrespecting borders and the sovereignty of another country and sending armed forces into another country, and then having a referendum sounds more than ridiculous, irrespective of the fact that there is a majority of Russian-speaking population or not. At this point there is nothing to support Russia's behavior. (Same as the US could not walk her soldiers across the border into Ontario, just because they speak English there and hold a referendum soon afterwards, or France invading Quebec and holding a referendum afterwards) This is simply unacceptable to say the least.

Personally, I think that Putin is clearly overstepping the line here, plus the current borders of the Ukraine have been agreed by contract, even signed by Russia back in 1993. Russia only holds a lease to use the port of Sevastopol for her navy.

In the best case scenario there is a peaceful and diplomatic answer to this, and the Ukraine would be in the same and uneasy position as Finland has been in the 2nd WW and the cold war, finding a way to live and deal beside Russia and not having any issues.

If Russia continues and chooses not to respect the Ukraine in it's current borders, there would quite possibly be two options:

A possible armed conflict,

and/or a breaking up of the Ukraine, the easternmost provinces plus the Crimea most likely to become part of Russian, and the remaining part of the Ukraine being more and more interested in becoming a part of NATO. That would mean for the Russians that NATO would certainly be closer to their doorstep, if they like it or not. (Romania, Bulgaria, Poland as well as the Baltic are already in NATO )

Let's hope for a peaceful solution.

Last edited by Cabbagetown; Mar 6th 2014 at 11:29 pm.
 
Old Mar 7th 2014 | 12:00 am
  #123  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Maybe they could build a really long, really really crooked wall.
 
Old Mar 7th 2014 | 4:11 am
  #124  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by Cabbagetown
...Disrespecting borders and the sovereignty of another country and sending armed forces into another country, and then having a referendum sounds more than ridiculous, irrespective of the fact that there is a majority of Russian-speaking population or not. At this point there is nothing to support Russia's behavior...

Personally, I think that Putin is clearly overstepping the line here, plus the current borders of the Ukraine have been agreed by contract, even signed by Russia back in 1993. Russia only holds a lease to use the port of Sevastopol for her navy.
...But Russia hasn't disrespected Ukraine's borders or the sovereignty of another country. The forces that have taken over Crimea are militia forces, not the Russian Army. All Russia has done is reinforce it's forces at it's bases in Crimea as a precaution should there be any threat to the the Russian speaking population... So Putin says.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...tell-pentagon/


It is going to be very interesting to see the results of the elections, and whether the results are widely recognised by all. Hopefully there will be some kind of independent UN observations to ensure a free and fair election process.
 
Old Mar 7th 2014 | 6:34 am
  #125  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by burks
It is going to be very interesting to see the results of the elections,
Although suddenly the Paralympics have become substantially more interesting.
 
Old Mar 7th 2014 | 10:20 am
  #126  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by burks
...But Russia hasn't disrespected Ukraine's borders or the sovereignty of another country. The forces that have taken over Crimea are militia forces, not the Russian Army. All Russia has done is reinforce it's forces at it's bases in Crimea as a precaution should there be any threat to the the Russian speaking population... So Putin says.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...tell-pentagon/


It is going to be very interesting to see the results of the elections, and whether the results are widely recognised by all. Hopefully there will be some kind of independent UN observations to ensure a free and fair election process.
I don't want to be disrespectful however, I believe your opinion, same as abc news sounds a little naive. Any nation which had the unfortunate fate of having a common border with Russia never liked nor wanted to deal with the Russians and was almost always subject to some kind of reprisal or political dependency. Poland, the Baltic, Finland, Romania and Bulgaria. In the Baltics they went as far as re-settling Russians during the communist times, they live there till today. Fact is, no other nation likes the Russians there when having to deal with them on a political basis. Finland lost the city of Vibourg during WW2 to the Russians and Mannerheim even opted to collaborate with Nazi Germany to help fight the Russians (Russia had actual control over Finland until end of WW1). Yugoslavia under Tito managed to get rid of Russian-style communism under Tito, and Romania managed getting rid of Russian occupation, even though staying communist, and Germany's Angela Merkel grew up in communsit and Russian-occupied East Germany where she faced reprisals. - during that time Putin was head of the KGB in Berlin.

I think this is a more serious matter than some guys playing hunting games and hide and seek in the Crimea wilderness, and they are certainly not Ukrainians. The whole government of Janukovitsch was a corrupt and nepotistic pro-Russian bunch.

I agree Russia has a wonderful culture, a very beautiful countryside and the hospitality is great there, however, the political system under Putin is just unacceptable. By the way, our Canada has a common border with Russia in the Arctic. Suppose they would invade us one day? In Edmonton Alberta, a large population is actually of either Russian or Ukrainian decent.

Last edited by Cabbagetown; Mar 7th 2014 at 10:28 am.
 
Old Mar 7th 2014 | 10:26 am
  #127  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by Cabbagetown

I agree Russia has a wonderful culture, a very beautiful countryside and the hospitality is great there, however, the political system under Putin is just unacceptable. By the way, our Canada has a common border with Russia in the Arctic. Suppose they would invade us one day? In Edmonton Alberta, a large population is actually of either Russian or Ukrainian decent.
You're not one of Palin family are you?
 
Old Mar 7th 2014 | 10:36 am
  #128  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by Shard
You're not one of Palin family are you?
No.

The common border is in the Arctic Ocean. It's not a land border.
 
Old Mar 7th 2014 | 3:39 pm
  #129  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by Cabbagetown
No.

The common border is in the Arctic Ocean. It's not a land border.
Where exactly is it though? Anyway, that's no more a common border than the one between Eire and Newfoundland, or between Tierra del Fuego and Antarctica.

You're being silly.
 
Old Mar 7th 2014 | 4:13 pm
  #130  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by Cabbagetown
I don't want to be disrespectful however, I believe your opinion, same as abc news sounds a little naive. Any nation which had the unfortunate fate of having a common border with Russia never liked nor wanted to deal with the Russians and was almost always subject to some kind of reprisal or political dependency. Poland, the Baltic, Finland, Romania and Bulgaria. In the Baltics they went as far as re-settling Russians during the communist times, they live there till today. Fact is, no other nation likes the Russians there when having to deal with them on a political basis. Finland lost the city of Vibourg during WW2 to the Russians and Mannerheim even opted to collaborate with Nazi Germany to help fight the Russians (Russia had actual control over Finland until end of WW1). Yugoslavia under Tito managed to get rid of Russian-style communism under Tito, and Romania managed getting rid of Russian occupation, even though staying communist, and Germany's Angela Merkel grew up in communsit and Russian-occupied East Germany where she faced reprisals. - during that time Putin was head of the KGB in Berlin.

I think this is a more serious matter than some guys playing hunting games and hide and seek in the Crimea wilderness, and they are certainly not Ukrainians. The whole government of Janukovitsch was a corrupt and nepotistic pro-Russian bunch.

I agree Russia has a wonderful culture, a very beautiful countryside and the hospitality is great there, however, the political system under Putin is just unacceptable. By the way, our Canada has a common border with Russia in the Arctic. Suppose they would invade us one day? In Edmonton Alberta, a large population is actually of either Russian or Ukrainian decent.
I have no doubt that the 'militia' are in fact the Russian army.. there was a sarcasm in what I was saying. I find it humorous that Putin and his regime make such statements when the vehicles that are transporting the 'militia' have license plates from the Russian Black Sea Fleet.

I am also aware of the large Ukrainian population in Canada, my gf's grandparents being from Ukraine we are involved without the Ukrainian community in BC. I actually went to Ukraine a few years ago on holiday. It's strange to see the places in Kiev looking like a war zone having been there ourselves.
 
Old Mar 7th 2014 | 11:43 pm
  #131  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by Novocastrian
Where exactly is it though? Anyway, that's no more a common border than the one between Eire and Newfoundland, or between Tierra del Fuego and Antarctica.

You're being silly.
It would be to the North of Canada, in the Arctic sea. I don't think that Canada actually legally borders Russia, however, there is indication of possible issues:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada-russia-...order-1.553422

and
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sovere...inks-1.1285765
 
Old Mar 8th 2014 | 12:59 am
  #132  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by burks
I have no doubt that the 'militia' are in fact the Russian army.. there was a sarcasm in what I was saying. I find it humorous that Putin and his regime make such statements when the vehicles that are transporting the 'militia' have license plates from the Russian Black Sea Fleet.
One of them, proud to show off his English for the camera said "I am Russian soldier." Oops. Of course there was no doubt, if they were the world's best kept secret militia the neighbours would know them anyway. Based on the Swiss model with a can of bullets and a rifle in the closet + brand new uniforms and state of the art gear? They're going to have to get these guys out of sight somewhere right quick and start letting the UN envoys in. Turning them away 2 days in a row is enough. RT has the coverage you'd expect with a sprinkling of American lifestyle slander pieces about how the west is falling apart which is true but kind of funny that they run them now. Western media media manipulation is also happening. A bunch of these 'Militia' were reported to have crashed the gate at a Ukrainian missile base, but a reporter near-by went there and said the gate was fine, she didn't see any damage, and the soldiers told her that Russians had come, but they just talked, were told to buzz off, and they left. Later this morning the news is still playing it up that they smashed through and attacked the base. Waiting for more news on that one! I shudder to think what Fox and CNN are doing now. Al Jazeera has what I consider the best and most prompt coverage, though CBC has their best on the scene (or as close as they can get).

Last edited by caretaker; Mar 8th 2014 at 1:09 am.
 
Old Mar 9th 2014 | 12:40 am
  #133  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Today is Taras Shevchenko's birthday (most famous and beloved poet in Ukraine) and there will be large gatherings all over the country. Ukrainians in Crimea have celebrations scheduled as well so hopefully everyone can get out and do what they do without any clashes. I haven't noticed anything about it on the news today at all so maybe no news is good news - I'd thought there might be trouble in Donetsk.
Edit: Reuters reports both nationalist and pro-Russian rallies in Simferopol and Donetsk but no violence (fingers crossed).

Last edited by caretaker; Mar 9th 2014 at 1:06 am.
 
Old Mar 10th 2014 | 6:39 am
  #134  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by Novocastrian
Where exactly is it though? Anyway, that's no more a common border than the one between Eire and Newfoundland, or between Tierra del Fuego and Antarctica.

You're being silly.
There's evidence that Spetsnaz landed on the coast of Alaska during the Cold war, around Diomede island as I recall. They found cartridge cases and empty ration packs buried in the snow.
 
Old Mar 10th 2014 | 6:46 am
  #135  
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Default Re: Ukraine

Originally Posted by Cabbagetown
In Edmonton Alberta, a large population is actually of either Russian or Ukrainian decent.
Ed Stelmach is of Ukrainian descent. It's the most common ethnicity in Alberta, iirc, followed by British. There's a Ukrainian orthodox church and bookshop in the Museum of Civilization in Ottawa, showing what Alberta looked like.
 


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