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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   The Maple Leaf (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/)
-   -   Toronto Shooting (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/toronto-shooting-915211/)

Almost Canadian Jul 25th 2018 1:32 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Oakvillian (Post 12538309)
Bollocks.
What deserves criticism is the wholly inadequate provision for mental health services across Canada. You can't possibly place blame on a doctor for not locking somebody up just in case he commits a crime.

That would be analagous to placing every defence counsel on notice that if they get their guy off on a technicality and he commits another crime, they're held responsible for his actions. I assume that "simple fact of the matter" is OK with you too? Of course, in reality, it's neither factual nor simple
Thank you for that.

The reports are that this guy was sectioned on a number of occasions. That being the case, I believe it is reasonable to assume that someone deemed him "safe" to be released. I don't know if the person that did so was negligent but, if s/he was, I see nothing wrong with criticizing them. If you re-read what I have stated, I haven't stated that anyone was negligent.

I completely agree with you regarding the funding of mental health services.

I'll ignore your comments regarding defence lawyers as you appear to not understand what their duty is.

Oakvillian Jul 25th 2018 1:56 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12538311)
Thank you for that.

The reports are that this guy was sectioned on a number of occasions. That being the case, I believe it is reasonable to assume that someone deemed him "safe" to be released. I don't know if the person that did so was negligent but, if s/he was, I see nothing wrong with criticizing them. If you re-read what I have stated, I haven't stated that anyone was negligent.

I completely agree with you regarding the funding of mental health services.

I'll ignore your comments regarding defence lawyers as you appear to not understand what their duty is.
their duty to their client, or their duty to society? Which are not always the same. cf mental health professionals.

Almost Canadian Jul 25th 2018 2:04 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Oakvillian (Post 12538326)
their duty to their client, or their duty to society? Which are not always the same. cf mental health professionals.
If you are enquiring about lawyers: their only professional duty is to their client. If you are enquiring about mental health professional, they owe an identical duty to both their patient and society that I would suggest is something along the lines of: How can I best help this person in a way that also protects society? I appreciate that judgement calls are required and that there are those that belief that the patient's interests are paramount, and those that belief that society's interests are paramount.

dbd33 Jul 25th 2018 2:09 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12538311)

The reports are that this guy was sectioned on a number of occasions. That being the case, I believe it is reasonable to assume that someone deemed him "safe" to be released. I don't know if the person that did so was negligent but, if s/he was, I see nothing wrong with criticizing them. .
Nor me. .

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12538311)

I completely agree with you regarding the funding of mental health services.
Canada is certainly no place for people who are not in the very best of mental health and who do not have a lot of money. That said, I've followed many UK cases of "person not locked up by social services commits hideous crime" from the prism of the Grauniad board; one heavily populated by social workers and legal professionals concerned with such matters. Jon Venables, for example, is a recurring character.

It's never straightforward. The professionals can't be sure that the person is a risk. Even if they strongly suspect there's a risk it's difficult to get people locked up. Once locked up the person's mental health goes downhill so, when he or she is released and commits a hideous crime it's possibly a consequence of the incarceration.

Assessing potentially dangerous characters is a thankless task, it's conducted by people who may have an agenda and who have limited career options. The only certainty is that, when a hideous crime is committed by someone with mental health issues, the Daily Mail will shit on someone who wasn't responsible.

Almost Canadian Jul 25th 2018 2:39 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12538336)
Canada is certainly no place for people who are not in the very best of mental health and who do not have a lot of money. That said, I've followed many UK cases of "person not locked up by social services commits hideous crime" from the prism of the Grauniad board; one heavily populated by social workers and legal professionals concerned with such matters. Jon Venables, for example, is a recurring character.

It's never straightforward. The professionals can't be sure that the person is a risk. Even if they strongly suspect there's a risk it's difficult to get people locked up. Once locked up the person's mental health goes downhill so, when he or she is released and commits a hideous crime it's possibly a consequence of the incarceration.

Assessing potentially dangerous characters is a thankless task, it's conducted by people who may have an agenda and who have limited career options. The only certainty is that, when a hideous crime is committed by someone with mental health issues, the Daily Mail will shit on someone who wasn't responsible.
Thankfully, I do not work for the Daily Mail.

Clearly, society needs to address how to prevent those with mental health issues harming others. I have no idea how best to achieve that.

Years ago, when I was prison officer, I saw numerous incidences of professionals agreeing to release individuals that, in the opinion of those that had dealt with them while incarcerated, should not have been released. In this context, I am talking about health care staff (nurses, doctors) that had treated them being the ones that objected to their release.

I guess that time will tell whether this guy was released when he ought not to have been released.

dbd33 Jul 25th 2018 2:58 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12538361)

I guess that time will tell whether this guy was released when he ought not to have been released.
If he was locked up and then he was released and then he went and shot people, he should not have been released. We know that now, not that it helps.

scrubbedexpat091 Jul 25th 2018 4:11 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
A good step forward would be for society as a whole to stop stigmatizing and isolating those with mental health problems, isolation tends to make mental health problems worse.

Doctors can only work within the system they are given and the system currently in place is not designed for long term admission, and most if not all provinces have a major lack of long term facilities for mental health.

Do we even know if he had seen a doctor recently? Was be admitted to hospital recently?

dbd33 Jul 25th 2018 4:30 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 12538403)

Doctors can only work within the system they are given and the system currently in place is not designed for long term admission, and most if not all provinces have a major lack of long term facilities for mental health.
This is just about willingness to spend. Some societies are willing to accept a high rate of deaths of innocents and a significant number of people living on the streets. Some are not. It’s a trade-off against tax rates that the electorate makes. Since Ontarians elected Mike Harris and, having seen what he did, then elected Doug Ford, it’s clear where their priorities lie. I just hope that there isn't any bleating from conservatives about this type of shooting ; lower taxes, more death, it's an informed choice. At least Ford slashed the price of petrol, like he said he would.

magnumpi Jul 25th 2018 6:31 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12538418)
This is just about willingness to spend. Some societies are willing to accept a high rate of deaths of innocents and a significant number of people living on the streets. Some are not. It’s a trade-off against tax rates that the electorate makes. Since Ontarians elected Mike Harris and, having seen what he did, then elected Doug Ford, it’s clear where their priorities lie. I just hope that there isn't any bleating from conservatives about this type of shooting ; lower taxes, more death, it's an informed choice. At least Ford slashed the price of petrol, like he said he would.
he was released while Wynne was in power, what has Ford or any politician other than Liberal got to do with this

dbd33 Jul 25th 2018 7:02 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by magnumpi (Post 12538465)


he was released while Wynne was in power, what has Ford or any politician other than Liberal got to do with this

No individual politician is directly responsible. However, Mike Harris's policy was to shut down the bins and to release madmen on to the streets. People who voted for him did vote for this sort of thing.

I don't think it unreasonable to say that a vote for Doug Ford is a vote for more of the same; he did promise to reduce the price of petrol and to cut services.

magnumpi Jul 25th 2018 7:19 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12538481)
No individual politician is directly responsible. However, Mike Harris's policy was to shut down the bins and to release madmen on to the streets. People who voted for him did vote for this sort of thing.

I don't think it unreasonable to say that a vote for Doug Ford is a vote for more of the same; he did promise to reduce the price of petrol and to cut services.
its because of the soft as shit approach to crime that the Liberals have forced on people is why we have so much gun crime and gangs running Toronto. You can only be “Fair” to so many, when you start being fair and soft hearted to criminals then society is ****ed

dbd33 Jul 25th 2018 7:30 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by magnumpi (Post 12538491)


its because of the soft as shit approach to crime that the Liberals have forced on people is why we have so much gun crime and gangs running Toronto. You can only be “Fair” to so many, when you start being fair and soft hearted to criminals then society is ****ed

That may be the case in general but in the specific instance of crimes committed by people formerly known as lunatics, it's irrelevant, they're on the streets as a matter of conservative policy. Granted the liberals, when in power, could have reinstated mental healthcare but didn't do so.

Still, with this discounted petrol, I'll be able to consider getting a V12 rather than a V8.

scrubbedexpat091 Jul 25th 2018 7:40 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Has there been any reports as to when this individual saw a doctor last for mental illness? I haven't been able to find anything, and if there has been no mention of when, for all we know it could have been years ago. I did see where police said they had some interactions with him for mental health concerns when under 18 but not much else.

Psychiatrists can only base their opinion on what they have been told, and what they can observe, if the patient or police or family haven't said this person is homicidal or there is writings somewhere by the individual that is found and lays out the plans, how can anyone expect the doctor to know?

magnumpi Jul 25th 2018 7:42 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12538495)
That may be the case in general but in the specific instance of crimes committed by people formerly known as lunatics, it's irrelevant, they're on the streets as a matter of conservative policy. Granted the liberals, when in power, could have reinstated mental healthcare but didn't do so.

Still, with this discounted petrol, I'll be able to consider getting a V12 rather than a V8.
yeh, 15 years to do something about it, and did nothing..Enjoy your v12 when cap n trade is forced on you

Oakvillian Jul 25th 2018 8:03 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 12538498)
Has there been any reports as to when this individual saw a doctor last for mental illness? I haven't been able to find anything, and if there has been no mention of when, for all we know it could have been years ago. I did see where police said they had some interactions with him for mental health concerns when under 18 but not much else.

Psychiatrists can only base their opinion on what they have been told, and what they can observe, if the patient or police or family haven't said this person is homicidal or there is writings somewhere by the individual that is found and lays out the plans, how can anyone expect the doctor to know?
I was thinking much the same. He appears to have been detained by police in 2010, but without sufficient evidence that he was an immediate danger to himself or others, he could not be held in custody. Eight years later, he commits an atrocity. It strikes me as ambitious, to say the least, to suggest that any mental health professional should be held accountable today for an opinion they presented on the mental state of a patient nearly a decade ago.


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