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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   The Maple Leaf (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/)
-   -   Toronto Shooting (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/toronto-shooting-915211/)

Siouxie Jul 22nd 2018 4:19 pm
Toronto Shooting
 
Horrible to hear/read about - hope nobody here has been affected personally... also sad to just read that some were seriously injured or mortally wounded.
Sad times we live in.

:(
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...ting-1.4757409

Dorothy Jul 22nd 2018 6:19 pm
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
It's awful news. There just aren't words for someone who would shoot 14 people, especially young children.

scrubbedexpat091 Jul 23rd 2018 4:34 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Sad.

Toronto seems to be having more frequent violence then most other Canadian city's. Hopefully the powers that be can find ways to try and reduce these events.

Danny B Jul 23rd 2018 4:35 pm
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Sounds like the shooter wasn't a terrorist, just a disturbed individual with severe mental health issues. I feel just as bad for his family as I do the victims.

Here is the entire statement from Hussain's family:

"We are at a terrible loss for words but we must speak out to express our deepest condolences to the families who are now suffering on account of our son's horrific actions.

"We are utterly devastated by the incomprehensible news that our son was responsible for the senseless violence and loss of life that took place on the Danforth.

"Our son had severe mental health challenges, struggling with psychosis and depression his entire life. The interventions of professionals were unsuccessful. Medications and therapy were unable to treat him. While we did our best to seek help for him throughout his life of struggle and pain, we could never imagine that this would be his devastating and destructive end.

"Our hearts are in pieces for the victims and for our city as we all come to grips with this terrible tragedy. We will mourn those who were lost for the rest of our lives."

magnumpi Jul 24th 2018 1:40 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Yes he was mentally ill, but some how he was provided with a gun and ammo

No one knows his motive yet, something triggered his hate, we will have to wait and see who or what was behind his sudden reasons to kill innocent people.

Shard Jul 24th 2018 2:38 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by magnumpi (Post 12537761)
Yes he was mentally ill, but some how he was provided with a gun and ammo

No one knows his motive yet, something triggered his hate, we will have to wait and see who or what was behind his sudden reasons to kill innocent people.
It might not be a "hate trigger" it might be schizophrenia or another severe mental condition. In any case, it is surprising that he could get his hands on weaponry, and indeed that someone with this condition could be free to walk the streets.

Almost Canadian Jul 24th 2018 3:07 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12537785)
It might not be a "hate trigger" it might be schizophrenia or another severe mental condition. In any case, it is surprising that he could get his hands on weaponry, and indeed that someone with this condition could be free to walk the streets.
I suspect that that was because an expert determined that he wasn't a danger to others.

Siouxie Jul 24th 2018 3:10 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by magnumpi (Post 12537761)
Yes he was mentally ill, but some how he was provided with a gun and ammo

No one knows his motive yet, something triggered his hate, we will have to wait and see who or what was behind his sudden reasons to kill innocent people.
Or he took them from a friends home without their knowledge - or originally with the intent to end his own life, perhaps.'

It will likely never be known why - unless he left a diatribe somewhere online or scribbled words down on paper.. he is dead.

His family are understandably horrified and devastated.

Sad times.

Shard Jul 24th 2018 9:15 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12537791)
I suspect that that was because an expert determined that he wasn't a danger to others.
If so, an incorrect determination. However, the psychiatrists may at least be able to shed some light on his motivations.

Almost Canadian Jul 24th 2018 10:07 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12537991)
If so, an incorrect determination. However, the psychiatrists may at least be able to shed some light on his motivations.
The reports suggested he was under the care of "professionals".

BristolUK Jul 24th 2018 10:30 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12538005)
The reports suggested he was under the care of "professionals".
Planes sometimes crash under the care of pilots and half the lawyers in a court case lose. :nod:

scrubbedexpat091 Jul 24th 2018 11:27 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12538016)
Planes sometimes crash under the care of pilots and half the lawyers in a court case lose. :nod:
Good point.

Doctors are not god, they are not predictors of the future, all they can do is base their opinion on the info that they have been provided by the patient, family members, police so on, if someone is homicidal but never tells anyone, never writes it down online, or otherwise never shows any signs, how is the doctor to know?

Psychiatry is far from an exact science.

No human is perfect in their profession.

Oakvillian Jul 25th 2018 1:20 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
As ever, there appears to be more to the story than first reported. The family certainly seems to have had a rough time: this son diagnosed with mental health issues from a young age; a daughter killed in a car crash a few years ago; another son in hospital. It's this second son where things get a bit blurry... first he was reported to be in hospital rehabilitating after a stroke. Now it seems it might actually be a drug overdose-induced coma. Is this the same son who has ties to Toronto street gangs? He appears now to be the likely provider of the firearm. It's all a dreadful mess, with tragic results.

Reports this morning suggest that the shooter's only previous interactions with police (of which there were more than one, it seems) were connected to his state of mental health and not because of any criminal activity.

Almost Canadian Jul 25th 2018 1:24 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12538016)
Planes sometimes crash under the care of pilots and half the lawyers in a court case lose. :nod:
If the plane crashed due to the pilot's error would it be wrong to criticize them? Regarding the comment of the lawyers that would depend upon how one defines a loss.

The simple fact of the matter is that the professionals involved were placed with ensuring public safety. If they were negligent in doing so, they deserve criticism.

Oakvillian Jul 25th 2018 1:26 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12538306)
If the plane crashed due to the pilot's error would it be wrong to criticize them? Regarding the comment of the lawyers that would depend upon how one defines a loss.

The simple fact of the matter is that the professionals involved were placed with ensuring public safety. If they were negligent in doing so, they deserve criticism.
Bollocks.
What deserves criticism is the wholly inadequate provision for mental health services across Canada. You can't possibly place blame on a doctor for not locking somebody up just in case he commits a crime.

That would be analagous to placing every defence counsel on notice that if they get their guy off on a technicality and he commits another crime, they're held responsible for his actions. I assume that "simple fact of the matter" is OK with you too? Of course, in reality, it's neither factual nor simple

Almost Canadian Jul 25th 2018 1:32 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Oakvillian (Post 12538309)
Bollocks.
What deserves criticism is the wholly inadequate provision for mental health services across Canada. You can't possibly place blame on a doctor for not locking somebody up just in case he commits a crime.

That would be analagous to placing every defence counsel on notice that if they get their guy off on a technicality and he commits another crime, they're held responsible for his actions. I assume that "simple fact of the matter" is OK with you too? Of course, in reality, it's neither factual nor simple
Thank you for that.

The reports are that this guy was sectioned on a number of occasions. That being the case, I believe it is reasonable to assume that someone deemed him "safe" to be released. I don't know if the person that did so was negligent but, if s/he was, I see nothing wrong with criticizing them. If you re-read what I have stated, I haven't stated that anyone was negligent.

I completely agree with you regarding the funding of mental health services.

I'll ignore your comments regarding defence lawyers as you appear to not understand what their duty is.

Oakvillian Jul 25th 2018 1:56 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12538311)
Thank you for that.

The reports are that this guy was sectioned on a number of occasions. That being the case, I believe it is reasonable to assume that someone deemed him "safe" to be released. I don't know if the person that did so was negligent but, if s/he was, I see nothing wrong with criticizing them. If you re-read what I have stated, I haven't stated that anyone was negligent.

I completely agree with you regarding the funding of mental health services.

I'll ignore your comments regarding defence lawyers as you appear to not understand what their duty is.
their duty to their client, or their duty to society? Which are not always the same. cf mental health professionals.

Almost Canadian Jul 25th 2018 2:04 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Oakvillian (Post 12538326)
their duty to their client, or their duty to society? Which are not always the same. cf mental health professionals.
If you are enquiring about lawyers: their only professional duty is to their client. If you are enquiring about mental health professional, they owe an identical duty to both their patient and society that I would suggest is something along the lines of: How can I best help this person in a way that also protects society? I appreciate that judgement calls are required and that there are those that belief that the patient's interests are paramount, and those that belief that society's interests are paramount.

dbd33 Jul 25th 2018 2:09 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12538311)

The reports are that this guy was sectioned on a number of occasions. That being the case, I believe it is reasonable to assume that someone deemed him "safe" to be released. I don't know if the person that did so was negligent but, if s/he was, I see nothing wrong with criticizing them. .
Nor me. .

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12538311)

I completely agree with you regarding the funding of mental health services.
Canada is certainly no place for people who are not in the very best of mental health and who do not have a lot of money. That said, I've followed many UK cases of "person not locked up by social services commits hideous crime" from the prism of the Grauniad board; one heavily populated by social workers and legal professionals concerned with such matters. Jon Venables, for example, is a recurring character.

It's never straightforward. The professionals can't be sure that the person is a risk. Even if they strongly suspect there's a risk it's difficult to get people locked up. Once locked up the person's mental health goes downhill so, when he or she is released and commits a hideous crime it's possibly a consequence of the incarceration.

Assessing potentially dangerous characters is a thankless task, it's conducted by people who may have an agenda and who have limited career options. The only certainty is that, when a hideous crime is committed by someone with mental health issues, the Daily Mail will shit on someone who wasn't responsible.

Almost Canadian Jul 25th 2018 2:39 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12538336)
Canada is certainly no place for people who are not in the very best of mental health and who do not have a lot of money. That said, I've followed many UK cases of "person not locked up by social services commits hideous crime" from the prism of the Grauniad board; one heavily populated by social workers and legal professionals concerned with such matters. Jon Venables, for example, is a recurring character.

It's never straightforward. The professionals can't be sure that the person is a risk. Even if they strongly suspect there's a risk it's difficult to get people locked up. Once locked up the person's mental health goes downhill so, when he or she is released and commits a hideous crime it's possibly a consequence of the incarceration.

Assessing potentially dangerous characters is a thankless task, it's conducted by people who may have an agenda and who have limited career options. The only certainty is that, when a hideous crime is committed by someone with mental health issues, the Daily Mail will shit on someone who wasn't responsible.
Thankfully, I do not work for the Daily Mail.

Clearly, society needs to address how to prevent those with mental health issues harming others. I have no idea how best to achieve that.

Years ago, when I was prison officer, I saw numerous incidences of professionals agreeing to release individuals that, in the opinion of those that had dealt with them while incarcerated, should not have been released. In this context, I am talking about health care staff (nurses, doctors) that had treated them being the ones that objected to their release.

I guess that time will tell whether this guy was released when he ought not to have been released.

dbd33 Jul 25th 2018 2:58 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12538361)

I guess that time will tell whether this guy was released when he ought not to have been released.
If he was locked up and then he was released and then he went and shot people, he should not have been released. We know that now, not that it helps.

scrubbedexpat091 Jul 25th 2018 4:11 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
A good step forward would be for society as a whole to stop stigmatizing and isolating those with mental health problems, isolation tends to make mental health problems worse.

Doctors can only work within the system they are given and the system currently in place is not designed for long term admission, and most if not all provinces have a major lack of long term facilities for mental health.

Do we even know if he had seen a doctor recently? Was be admitted to hospital recently?

dbd33 Jul 25th 2018 4:30 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 12538403)

Doctors can only work within the system they are given and the system currently in place is not designed for long term admission, and most if not all provinces have a major lack of long term facilities for mental health.
This is just about willingness to spend. Some societies are willing to accept a high rate of deaths of innocents and a significant number of people living on the streets. Some are not. It’s a trade-off against tax rates that the electorate makes. Since Ontarians elected Mike Harris and, having seen what he did, then elected Doug Ford, it’s clear where their priorities lie. I just hope that there isn't any bleating from conservatives about this type of shooting ; lower taxes, more death, it's an informed choice. At least Ford slashed the price of petrol, like he said he would.

magnumpi Jul 25th 2018 6:31 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12538418)
This is just about willingness to spend. Some societies are willing to accept a high rate of deaths of innocents and a significant number of people living on the streets. Some are not. It’s a trade-off against tax rates that the electorate makes. Since Ontarians elected Mike Harris and, having seen what he did, then elected Doug Ford, it’s clear where their priorities lie. I just hope that there isn't any bleating from conservatives about this type of shooting ; lower taxes, more death, it's an informed choice. At least Ford slashed the price of petrol, like he said he would.
he was released while Wynne was in power, what has Ford or any politician other than Liberal got to do with this

dbd33 Jul 25th 2018 7:02 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by magnumpi (Post 12538465)


he was released while Wynne was in power, what has Ford or any politician other than Liberal got to do with this

No individual politician is directly responsible. However, Mike Harris's policy was to shut down the bins and to release madmen on to the streets. People who voted for him did vote for this sort of thing.

I don't think it unreasonable to say that a vote for Doug Ford is a vote for more of the same; he did promise to reduce the price of petrol and to cut services.

magnumpi Jul 25th 2018 7:19 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12538481)
No individual politician is directly responsible. However, Mike Harris's policy was to shut down the bins and to release madmen on to the streets. People who voted for him did vote for this sort of thing.

I don't think it unreasonable to say that a vote for Doug Ford is a vote for more of the same; he did promise to reduce the price of petrol and to cut services.
its because of the soft as shit approach to crime that the Liberals have forced on people is why we have so much gun crime and gangs running Toronto. You can only be “Fair” to so many, when you start being fair and soft hearted to criminals then society is ****ed

dbd33 Jul 25th 2018 7:30 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by magnumpi (Post 12538491)


its because of the soft as shit approach to crime that the Liberals have forced on people is why we have so much gun crime and gangs running Toronto. You can only be “Fair” to so many, when you start being fair and soft hearted to criminals then society is ****ed

That may be the case in general but in the specific instance of crimes committed by people formerly known as lunatics, it's irrelevant, they're on the streets as a matter of conservative policy. Granted the liberals, when in power, could have reinstated mental healthcare but didn't do so.

Still, with this discounted petrol, I'll be able to consider getting a V12 rather than a V8.

scrubbedexpat091 Jul 25th 2018 7:40 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Has there been any reports as to when this individual saw a doctor last for mental illness? I haven't been able to find anything, and if there has been no mention of when, for all we know it could have been years ago. I did see where police said they had some interactions with him for mental health concerns when under 18 but not much else.

Psychiatrists can only base their opinion on what they have been told, and what they can observe, if the patient or police or family haven't said this person is homicidal or there is writings somewhere by the individual that is found and lays out the plans, how can anyone expect the doctor to know?

magnumpi Jul 25th 2018 7:42 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12538495)
That may be the case in general but in the specific instance of crimes committed by people formerly known as lunatics, it's irrelevant, they're on the streets as a matter of conservative policy. Granted the liberals, when in power, could have reinstated mental healthcare but didn't do so.

Still, with this discounted petrol, I'll be able to consider getting a V12 rather than a V8.
yeh, 15 years to do something about it, and did nothing..Enjoy your v12 when cap n trade is forced on you

Oakvillian Jul 25th 2018 8:03 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 12538498)
Has there been any reports as to when this individual saw a doctor last for mental illness? I haven't been able to find anything, and if there has been no mention of when, for all we know it could have been years ago. I did see where police said they had some interactions with him for mental health concerns when under 18 but not much else.

Psychiatrists can only base their opinion on what they have been told, and what they can observe, if the patient or police or family haven't said this person is homicidal or there is writings somewhere by the individual that is found and lays out the plans, how can anyone expect the doctor to know?
I was thinking much the same. He appears to have been detained by police in 2010, but without sufficient evidence that he was an immediate danger to himself or others, he could not be held in custody. Eight years later, he commits an atrocity. It strikes me as ambitious, to say the least, to suggest that any mental health professional should be held accountable today for an opinion they presented on the mental state of a patient nearly a decade ago.

caretaker Jul 25th 2018 8:05 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 12538498)
how can anyone expect the doctor to know?
That's right, some questions are real posers and the best of them don't always have the answers. More information will emerge in the coming days, but it looks like the basics are out. This was an incredible story of survival, only 2 people killed out of that whole barrage when it could have been a dozen if he'd been a proficient marksman.

caretaker Jul 26th 2018 2:13 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
The gun used was stolen from a licensed owner in Saskatoon.
https://leaderpost.com/news/national..._autoplay=true

magnumpi Jul 26th 2018 3:10 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by caretaker (Post 12538914)
The gun used was stolen from a licensed owner in Saskatoon.
https://leaderpost.com/news/national..._autoplay=true
so he wasn’t a legal gun owner with military training gone wild then. And I thought Facebook had this one in the bag !!

still, best to ban all the legal guns, and maybe ban restaurants too, and being outside when it gets dark

vikingsail Jul 26th 2018 3:37 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by magnumpi (Post 12538941)


so he wasn’t a legal gun owner with military training gone wild then. And I thought Facebook had this one in the bag !!

still, best to ban all the legal guns, and maybe ban restaurants too, and being outside when it gets dark

I agree with the banning of restaurants. In my humble exerience they are nearly always 'shell games' owned by someone with snake oil salesmen like tendencies. Take for example Nebraska by the Sea where I reside. You can pay anywhere from $1 to $20 (and I would guess more $$ in some places) for the same Mexican taco depending on the store front dressing, location and level of fawning/ customer service you wish to indulge in. Thus the whole dining experience becomes a sham. Needless to say whether you are paying $1 or $20 its still being cooked by the same minimum wage 'chef' in the kitchen!

Not to mention the obsession here with 'turning tables,' so you almost feel guilty for sitting longer than it has been deemed necessary for you to be fleeced.

Edo Jul 26th 2018 5:01 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by magnumpi (Post 12538491)


its because of the soft as shit approach to crime that the Liberals have forced on people is why we have so much gun crime and gangs running Toronto. You can only be “Fair” to so many, when you start being fair and soft hearted to criminals then society is ****ed
But it was the Conservatives who made it so easy for everyone to own a gun by undoing the legal legislation that Canada was so proudly recognized for prior to their 9 years or so in power.

Almost Canadian Jul 26th 2018 5:05 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Edo (Post 12539002)
But it was the Conservatives who made it so easy for everyone to own a gun by undoing the legal legislation that Canada was so proudly recognized for prior to their 9 years or so in power.
Which legislation was that then?

You do realise that those that use guns to injure people are usually those that do not possess the firearms legally? How would the firearms legislation you have referred to prevented the shooting this thread refers to?

dbd33 Jul 26th 2018 5:24 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Edo (Post 12539002)
But it was the Conservatives who made it so easy for everyone to own a gun by undoing the legal legislation that Canada was so proudly recognized for prior to their 9 years or so in power.
It's not easy to own a handgun in Canada. If you do have a permit for a handgun it doesn't typically allow moving it from a permanent location (usually a range). I don't think the laws are relevant to this issue.

Edo Jul 26th 2018 6:54 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12539004)
Which legislation was that then?

You do realise that those that use guns to injure people are usually those that do not possess the firearms legally? How would the firearms legislation you have referred to prevented the shooting this thread refers to?
My post was not in reference to the overall thread. I was responding to mangumpi's post who blamed Liberals for the increase in gun crime.

Almost Canadian Jul 26th 2018 7:55 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Edo (Post 12539050)
My post was not in reference to the overall thread. I was responding to mangumpi's post who blamed Liberals for the increase in gun crime.
Fair enough. My question remains. What legislation did the Conservatives do/undo that made owing firearms easier for everyone?

I ask this as this site: RCMP - history of firearms controls

would suggest that the removal of the long gun registry was the only thing that occurred during the period you referred to which, I would respectfully suggest, had little impact upon how easy it was for people to obtain firearms.

Edo Jul 26th 2018 8:24 am
Re: Toronto Shooting
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12539086)
Fair enough. My question remains. What legislation did the Conservatives do/undo that made owing firearms easier for everyone?
Bill C-42?


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