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Old Jul 30th 2013 | 5:10 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

Originally Posted by dbd33
I think it improbable that firing nine shoots at someone and then zapping them is reasonable force. Where's the irony?
How many times was he hit?

Another question, was he on drugs- meth, etc? If so, 2 or 3 shots to the body might not work.

The answer to both of these questions is "we don't know".
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 5:13 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

Originally Posted by ChrisCDN
I'm fortunate enough, as I suspect are most on here, never to have been in that situation. It's very easy to sit behind the comfort of a computer screen telling someone what they should or should not have done.

It is unlikely the police rolled up and started shooting. It is more likely that they gave the bloke numerous opportunities to put his weapon down and come out of the bus with his hands up.
The only person to blame for the incident is the knife wielding criminal, regardless of OTT (or not) the police officers were in dealing with the situation.


On a separate point..

I don't know the answer to this question, so perhaps someone else can shed some light, but are police officers trained, when firing their weapon, to shoot to "neutralise" the suspect, or shoot to kill?
My wife's nephew is a Sergeant with London Metropolitan Police and can be seen patrolling at Heathrow with a sub-machine gun and a pistol. I asked him the question and the answer is NO to neutralizing. They are trained to aim for the largest body target, ie: between neck and waist. Other body parts are small and can be missed thereby allowing the target to continue the illegal activity or return fire/advance with knife and kill/injure someone.
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 5:15 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

Originally Posted by ChrisCDN
How many times was he hit?

Another question, was he on drugs- meth, etc? If so, 2 or 3 shots to the body might not work.

The answer to both of these questions is "we don't know".
Indeed we don't know so all we have is a reasonable assumption that the cop went bonkers. He or she may not have done but, on the available facts, it doesn't look good. Very likely we'll never know more than we do now as it seems probable that all the witnesses are themselves members of the police force; they won't be reliable in this sort of case.
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 5:17 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

Originally Posted by Auld Yin
My wife's nephew is a Sergeant with London Metropolitan Police and can be seen patrolling at Heathrow with a sub-machine gun and a pistol. I asked him the question and the answer is NO to neutralizing. They are trained to aim for the largest body target, ie: between neck and waist. Other body parts are small and can be missed thereby allowing the target to continue the illegal activity or return fire/advance with knife and kill/injure someone.
I don't think someone could shoot with an intent other than to stop the target by killing them; we're not talking surgical instruments here. The point is that, one the person has been hit, "neutralized", one should stop popping holes in them.
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 5:19 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

Originally Posted by dbd33
Indeed we don't know so all we have is a reasonable assumption that the cop went bonkers. He or she may not have done but, on the available facts, it doesn't look good.
That's not reasonable at all. If the cop was on his own, in a darkened alley, with no witnesses... perhaps I'd agree. But he wasn't. He was surrounded by fellow cops, civilians, etc... so not, it's not reasonable to assume he went bonkers.

It's more reasonable to assume that the alleged criminal was given manu opportunities to surrendered, put down his weapon, etc, and chose not to... which is why he was shot.
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 5:21 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

Originally Posted by ChrisCDN
It's more reasonable to assume that the alleged criminal was given manu opportunities to surrendered, put down his weapon, etc, and chose not to... which is why he was shot.
And then Tazered.
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 5:27 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

Originally Posted by dbd33
And then Tazered.
Look at the latest videos etc- he was tazered because he was still holding the knife.
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 5:29 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

Originally Posted by ChrisCDN
Look at the latest videos etc- he was tazered because he was still holding the knife.
And, laying there, full of holes, with a knife in his hand, he presented an immediate threat to the police.
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 5:39 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

Originally Posted by dbd33
And, laying there, full of holes, with a knife in his hand, he presented an immediate threat to the police.
It was obvious that the group of policemen who were there thought he did. You can see by the way they all jumped back when they saw he was still carrying the knife.... whilst still being told to drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy2zsuRyjaQ

I'm struggling to see what you suggest the alternative is. Do they wait for him to die? Do they send a rookie in to try and take the weapon off him, thus risking his own life? What do they do? Better yet, what would YOU do?
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 5:45 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

I think a little try with a Tazer would be the first step, then consider Swiss cheesing him ! Yeh ?
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 5:51 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

Originally Posted by ChrisCDN
Better yet, what would YOU do?
Shut him in the bus and wait for him to throw the knife out. If it's available, use tear gas to disable him. If not, and if ordered in, put on a riot shield, gloves and a helmet and hit him with a baton. Boring, I know, but ideally the police should make all potential dramas boring.
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 5:51 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

Originally Posted by magnumpi
I think a little try with a Tazer would be the first step, then consider Swiss cheesing him ! Yeh ?
Oh yes, using the Tazer after shooting him does seem a little cart before horse.
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 5:53 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

Originally Posted by dbd33
Shut him in the bus and wait for him to throw the knife out. If it's available, use tear gas to disable him. If not, and if ordered in, put on a riot shield, gloves and a helmet and hit him with a baton. Boring, I know, but ideally the police should make all potential dramas boring.
Boring

Bring in the Army artillery and blow the tram into the lake,
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 6:02 am
  #104  
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

And then given CPR.

I'd imagine the chest compressions would cause his blood to squirt out of his bullet holes.

Originally Posted by dbd33
And then Tazered.
 
Old Jul 30th 2013 | 6:03 am
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Default Re: Toronto Shooting

I hope the inquiry takes a long time so you people can exhaust yourselves speculating and making assumptions based on nothing but a cellphone video, and specifically speculating about what happened in a place not shown in the video, (the floor of the bus). Let your imaginations run wild, feel free to assign blame, reconstruct events we have no knowledge of yet, assume there will be a police cover up, bless us with all your knowledge of what small arms fire is about and how it should be applied, if at all. You only have until the inquiry has happened and findings reached to play at it, then only the facts will stand. Want to know why 9 shots were fired and he was tased after? Wait for the inquiry. Unless you know that policeman personally and he told you, none of you have any idea. Poorly trained policeman? You have no idea. Inaccurate shooting? No idea. Body twitching prompts 6 more shots? No idea. Suspect on drugs or having a breakdown? Toxicology will tell the first part, but until then we don't know. Why no stun grenade or tear gas? Wait for the inquiry and maybe we'll find out. Prepare yourselves for the officer to be cleared in this shooting, not because of any coverup or corruption in the police, but because when someone comes at you with a knife you can often shoot and kill them and go free. Lots of people are killed with knives, "He only had a knife" means lethal force may be justified. Where is Rob Ford while all this has been going on? The Star doesn't even mention him making a statement about it.
 


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