Both sides were dreadfully poor. England believed the hype of an easy 5 nil series so didn't have the intensity and the Aussies were just awful. Neither side deserved to win The Ashes.

Neither side did. England merely retained them.

3-0 is winning them. I'd take that down under.

I'm happy to wait for Oakvillian's refutation of your interpretation of cricketing tradition so for now I'll settle for a query.

What else do you enjoy taking down under?

Now then, this is a sporting thread and I don't mean the type sporting activities you ivory tower lot get up to with hot buttered toast and claret in the common room.

I just can't help myself, can I?

The diplomat hiding somewhere deep in my psyche tells me that you're both right. Since England already had the Ashes, they've retained them (in the way that, say, a Wimbledon champion mounting a successful defence retains their title).

But, in Ashes Tests, as a series can be drawn as well as won or lost, tradition has it that if a side in possession of the Ashes merely draws a series, they retain the Ashes; if they win the series, they win the Ashes all over again.

It's the same in the Ryder Cup: a halved score means whoever has the Cup retains it; beating the other side means that you "win" the Cup even if you won last time around as well.

That's how I understand it, anyway.

So I was right.

Not about the buttered toast though.

Anyway I disagree with (apparently) both of you. Aussies or Rosbifs can only claim to have won the Ashes when the Ashes change hands.

Winning an Ashes series is quite a different matter.

The series was best of 5, so 3 - 0 would be a win.

When the series was 2 - 0 with one game a draw, at that point it was a retain, but we won in chester le street making it a series win. A draw at the oval finished the series.

England deserved to win. They did win!

They won the Ashes series, but not the Ashes. They retained them as they would have done if the latest Ashes series had been drawn.

It's really not that hard (or important) but cricket and especially the Ashes are nothing without history.

Well they [England] got hammered today in something that sort of resembles cricket.

What was it? A T-20? I can't be bothered with those.

Yes, and I'm can't be either. Its a dreadful and tacky spectacle designed for the ADHD generation.

And the Indian subcontinent.