januarymix

Here is a good eyewitness, first person account on the Guardian this morning:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ma...person-account

januarymix

I think that all people are actually multdimensional. A person's nationality and base culture are also elements that are part of any person's identity.

Let's also not forget that not all Muslims will act as these people have chosen to, and the the Muslim groups in London have condemned this latest act of 'terror' (a grossly misused and blase term for a genuinely complex issue)

Shard

The point is not about multi-dimensionality, it's about turning against part of one's core identity. That's a more recent phenomena, and it seems to be driven by religious indoctrination.

januarymix

Watch the Sean Bean movie above, it explores that theme actually, and is probably one of the fewer "Western" movies that do, without just using the word "You're a bloody terrorist only". Anyway I found it different.

A person's character is made up of what? Conventions, beliefs, attitudes, themes, actions. What is irrelevant about multi-dimensionality in this case?

I can share a beer and a pie with you at the pub, but it doesn't stop me from believing the multitude of whatever opinions/beliefs that I see fit. Does the fact that I have an English accent and eat pies contradict a belief that troops are doing injustices in another home land?

Ergo, multi-dimensionality does proffer an explanation for why one might accept beliefs that are contrary to the beliefs of a main populace. (in this case, white Mother England)

These people see the killing of their people as a crime, I think.

Their actions are grotesque, and barbaric, but the logic of "You kill my people at home, I detest you" is not a hard sentence to be understood, is it?

The core identity they really seem to have screwed with is the means i.e. most of us Westerners find their actions barbaric and grotesque (yet there is of course the argument of what our forces do, including drone attacks recently favored by the US). Other than that, what is core identity anyway, Shard?

Anyway, I think it is complex, like Mr Oink alluded to earlier.

There are already retribution attacks reported in two mosques in the UK. Tell me, when has the world ever been different?

Shard

A black man raised in South London (if indeed that is the case) is not going to have a "white Mother England" identity, but will have some form of British identity (there is a difference between England and Britain, by the way).

Clearly someone can acquire new dimensions through life, but these are generally additions to a core identity, not a rejection of that core identity or replacement of it. When that happens, as it sometimes does, you have to ask why and how. It's a bit beyond eating pies in pubs but disputing the Iraq war.

Jingsamichty

If I was a marginalised young man in London, with a keen sense of empathy to atrocities being carried out daily on people I regarded as "kin", I might feel angry enough to do something stupid. We've been through it all before with angry young Catholics feeling disenfranchised in Northern Ireland.

I don't recall seeing mass news coverage of the primary schools or wedding parties that we've dropped drones on? Do you know how many innocent Afghans or Iraqis were killed by US/UK troops this week alone? Neither do I, but I think we'd all agree it probably more than 1.

I don't offer this as justification for what the murderers did, but rather as an explanation of why so many angry, disenfranchised young radicals are on the streets right now. We created that situation, and the rise of fascist politics in the UK today will only make the tensions worse.

Souvy

The rise and rise. The UK is moving to the right and I don't see it stopping.

Shard

Disenfranchisement is undoubtedly a pre-condition to radicalisation. It's true that Britain is not blameless in geo-politics, and that there are countless atrocities like this taking place across the Middle East during this turbulent time. I think it's a stretch to say we created the situation, we have added to it and stirred it perhaps, but ultimately it's a conflict of religion.

I don't see any serious fascist politics in the UK today, I think that is an exaggeration and a convenient scapegoat.

Shard

I've made my serious comment above, but since you're on topic I thought I would point out that if we do continue on the path you fear, soon we'll be Albertan!

Mikeypm

+1

I think Syria is a case in point and Eygpt as there have been and continue to be atrocities carried out by their own people against there own people on a daily basis.

magnumpi

Well, who ever these two nut bars were, or think they were, they have indeed stired up the EDL

http://news.sky.com/story/1094547/wo...sques-targeted

And no one has even given a thought to the poor guy who was murdered, what of his family, what must they be thinking now?

Shard

Perhaps they could all be herded into the same containment cell. As they say, birds of a feather, flock together.

Almost Canadian

For the same reason that a fairly large number of those in the IRA had no real interest in the Brit/Irish thing. They were, first and foremost, criminals that dressed their actions in a political flag.

One wonders why these people didn't go after a politician. After all, that seems to be the class of people with whom they are upset.

Shard

Some of the Irish terrorists may well have been acting purely for criminal reasons, but I suspect many did harbour genuine political grievances. However, none of them rejected their root culture (Irish) indeed their actions were in defence of that culture. This situations differs in that the perpetrators have turned against their own nation.

Almost Canadian

I believe that if you speak to most that experienced "The Troubles" first hand, they will disagree with your summary of what actually when on on the ground. Having said that ...

If these people felt so aggrieved, why not go to the conflict where, one assumes, they could assist their kin and kill lots of soldiers in the process (as many others have done)?

From my experience, most that commit crimes believe they are justified in doing so. The one that gave a speech to those recording him appears to believe so too.