Shortage of workers

Old Jul 4th 2021, 5:56 pm
  #16  
Account Closed
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 0
scrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Shortage of workers

Businesses are not entitled to anyone's labor, if a business can't or isn't willing to pay a wage that attracts workers, that isn't the fault of workers.

If these businesses cannot even attract workers at min wage, well they are clearly not offering an appropriate wage for the market they are operating in.
scrubbedexpat091 is offline  
Old Jul 4th 2021, 6:14 pm
  #17  
He/him
 
kimilseung's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 17,602
kimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Shortage of workers

Originally Posted by Tony_Tiger View Post
.
Minimum wage is not a wage that is meant to be lived on. If one wants to earn more money then they need to learn or develop a skill/trade that the market needs. That is the incentive. This should be taught in schools.
Who is it meant for? Children living at home only?
What if everyone gets those skills, how do you then attract people to the none skilled jobs?
Although I suspect there are people incapable of aquiring those skills, what happens to them? Should government supplement the businesses wages?
kimilseung is offline  
Old Jul 4th 2021, 7:27 pm
  #18  
Account Closed
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 0
scrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Shortage of workers

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Who is it meant for? Children living at home only?
What if everyone gets those skills, how do you then attract people to the none skilled jobs?
Although I suspect there are people incapable of aquiring those skills, what happens to them? Should government supplement the businesses wages?

No you see those unable to gain skills, should be exploited at a lower wage so business owners can have cheap labor.


Wasn't the whole point of min wage originally at least in the US was to ensure a basic standard of living for workers?

Min wage in 1970's British Columbia a single person could rent an apartment (before anyone chimes in about this, I have researched and found rental ads in archives of newspapers that indicate this was easily doable) with about 40 hours of work, now at min wage, good luck renting an apartment in Vancouver or surrounds, move they say, small communities offer less employment, and rents are not much cheaper, rents have increased substantially more than wages in general, this is what causes a large chunk of issues for people now, basic need like housing has become a luxury.

scrubbedexpat091 is offline  
Old Jul 4th 2021, 7:55 pm
  #19  
BE Enthusiast
 
Tony_Tiger's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 348
Tony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: Shortage of workers

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
Businesses are not entitled to anyone's labor, if a business can't or isn't willing to pay a wage that attracts workers, that isn't the fault of workers.

If these businesses cannot even attract workers at min wage, well they are clearly not offering an appropriate wage for the market they are operating in.
Who is arguing that they are entitled to anyones labour? Please post a source. Who is blaming the workers?
It is government policy of a high minimum wage. Where is the money that a business pays comes from? Is it the magic money tree? It comes from the sale of goods and services.
If the delivery driver is paid a high mimumin wage. The cost of good goes up to make a economically feasible for delivery. People do not work for free. That is cold at a higher price. If the not the margin goes down. From that margin a business owner has to pay it workers. The money has to come from somewhere.

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Who is it meant for? Children living at home only?
What if everyone gets those skills, how do you then attract people to the none skilled jobs?
Although I suspect there are people incapable of aquiring those skills, what happens to them? Should government supplement the businesses wages?
Everyone does not get those skills. Not everyone can do everything, people specilalize in a skill. Lets give a example. If a non skilled worker comes to Canada. He works and studies part time. He/She acquires new skill/profression that is in demand. Hence they move up to a higher paying job that needs that skill. Then the business owner needs low skilled labour again. Guess what, lots of people turning 18 everyday that need part time work. Lots of people semi retiring that want low skilled work. Also lots of unskilled labour locally and globally. Those people can immigrate.
Now those people that moved for the low skilled work need services to help them. Guess who might help them. Its the people that moved up.
As for people incapable of acquiring skills. Everyone can acquire a some sort of skill. Unless some sort of severe disability. Thats when there is government help or help from the community.


Tony_Tiger is offline  
Old Jul 4th 2021, 8:09 pm
  #20  
BE Forum Addict
 
johnwoo's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2016
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,277
johnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Shortage of workers

Originally Posted by scilly View Post
This hiring someone with a degree over a more experienced person or employee without one is nothing new.

I can remember my father back in the 1950s saying something similar ..........

He was Foreman in charge of a brass finishing foundry in a company making many very specialised things, including huge vats for commercial kitchens. He had worked his way up from the bottom, helped probably by being in reserved occupation during the war, making either bombs or planes.

He would complain bitterly about a new hire made by the company supposedly to improve things in the foundry or somewhere else, but knew nothing of the practical work so Dad had to show them how to do everything
In the 50s and most of the 60s very few people in the UK had university degrees. I worked in the drawing office of a large engineering company and no one had a degree.
A HNC was the good to have but not essential. Most of us were ex apprentices and were given time off to go to classes to gain a HNC. I guess not worth much these days.

johnwoo is offline  
Old Jul 4th 2021, 8:48 pm
  #21  
Account Closed
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 0
scrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond reputescrubbedexpat091 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Shortage of workers

I've been working since 1996, highest wage I have made is $17 roughly, hardly enough to have a good life, sure I gained skills along the way, but nobody cares about those skills, they of no financial worth to any employer apparently.


scrubbedexpat091 is offline  
Old Jul 4th 2021, 9:27 pm
  #22  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 39,756
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Shortage of workers

Originally Posted by Tony_Tiger View Post
Who is arguing that they are entitled to anyones labour? Please post a source. Who is blaming the workers?
It is government policy of a high minimum wage. Where is the money that a business pays comes from? Is it the magic money tree? It comes from the sale of goods and services.
If the delivery driver is paid a high mimumin wage. The cost of good goes up to make a economically feasible for delivery. People do not work for free. That is cold at a higher price. If the not the margin goes down. From that margin a business owner has to pay it workers. The money has to come from somewhere.



Everyone does not get those skills. Not everyone can do everything, people specilalize in a skill. Lets give a example. If a non skilled worker comes to Canada. He works and studies part time. He/She acquires new skill/profression that is in demand. Hence they move up to a higher paying job that needs that skill. Then the business owner needs low skilled labour again. Guess what, lots of people turning 18 everyday that need part time work. Lots of people semi retiring that want low skilled work. Also lots of unskilled labour locally and globally. Those people can immigrate.
Now those people that moved for the low skilled work need services to help them. Guess who might help them. Its the people that moved up.
As for people incapable of acquiring skills. Everyone can acquire a some sort of skill. Unless some sort of severe disability. Thats when there is government help or help from the community.
The idea that it's reasonable for firms to pay full time workers less than a living wage would be a lot more palatable had executive pay not exploded since Gordon Gecko told us greed is good. The median US worker is paid $19.33 per hour. Jeff Bezos is paid $149,353 a minute. The medium US worker pays 22.4% of that in income in tax. Jeff Bezos pays 21%. Amazon is not unique, many companies could do more for their workers by reducing executive pay without sending management to the food bank.

Here are some stats: https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/

Last edited by dbd33; Jul 4th 2021 at 9:29 pm.
dbd33 is offline  
Old Jul 4th 2021, 9:33 pm
  #23  
Henry Bear
 
Piff Poff's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Location: Red Deer, Alberta
Posts: 10,482
Piff Poff has a reputation beyond reputePiff Poff has a reputation beyond reputePiff Poff has a reputation beyond reputePiff Poff has a reputation beyond reputePiff Poff has a reputation beyond reputePiff Poff has a reputation beyond reputePiff Poff has a reputation beyond reputePiff Poff has a reputation beyond reputePiff Poff has a reputation beyond reputePiff Poff has a reputation beyond reputePiff Poff has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Shortage of workers

If my skills and education was recognized in Canada, I would be working in an office and probably bored out of my mind. However I live in Red Neck Alberta and unless you are great at boasting about your skills which is incredibly Canadian your not gonna get far.i refused to go and pay $16k to do an admin course to get a Canadian recognised qualification.

I only want to work part time. My job gives me that, I work 5 hours Monday to Friday evenings and weekends off. I'm tired of my job. I've been looking for something new. It's incredible what employers are asking for and only paying minimum wage. I'm better off with the devil I know.
Piff Poff is offline  
Old Jul 4th 2021, 10:29 pm
  #24  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 66
Farmer on a bike has a reputation beyond reputeFarmer on a bike has a reputation beyond reputeFarmer on a bike has a reputation beyond reputeFarmer on a bike has a reputation beyond reputeFarmer on a bike has a reputation beyond reputeFarmer on a bike has a reputation beyond reputeFarmer on a bike has a reputation beyond reputeFarmer on a bike has a reputation beyond reputeFarmer on a bike has a reputation beyond reputeFarmer on a bike has a reputation beyond reputeFarmer on a bike has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Shortage of workers

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
Businesses are not entitled to anyone's labor, if a business can't or isn't willing to pay a wage that attracts workers, that isn't the fault of workers.

If these businesses cannot even attract workers at min wage, well they are clearly not offering an appropriate wage for the market they are operating in.
Business is not entitled to labour, as much as workers are not entitled to a job. The world owes no one a living!
Market forces will dictate what is paid, as it dictates price. The increase in min wage will ripple on to the previously higher paid workers and increase costs, suppliers will have increased labour costs as will sellers. Compounded through the supply chain, consumers will be paying many times over for the increases, much the same as BC consumers are paying for compounded PST since BC got rid of HST. Basic economics. A worker needs to produce more than they cost for a business to be viable, without that the business shuts down (=no jobs) or prices have to increase (=increased cost of living). When the cost of goods increase, the benefits of increased pay diminishes. Wages and prices cannot reflect the cost of housing, this is unworkable.

Minimum wage is some parts of BC is above the living wage for these areas. Covid displaced workers, some went to other industries, some considered they were better off taking the CERB rather than working.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microeconomics

Last edited by Farmer on a bike; Jul 4th 2021 at 10:34 pm.
Farmer on a bike is offline  
Old Jul 4th 2021, 11:05 pm
  #25  
BE Enthusiast
 
Tony_Tiger's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 348
Tony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: Shortage of workers

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
The idea that it's reasonable for firms to pay full time workers less than a living wage would be a lot more palatable had executive pay not exploded since Gordon Gecko told us greed is good. The median US worker is paid $19.33 per hour. Jeff Bezos is paid $149,353 a minute. The medium US worker pays 22.4% of that in income in tax. Jeff Bezos pays 21%. Amazon is not unique, many companies could do more for their workers by reducing executive pay without sending management to the food bank.

Here are some stats: https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/
Define a living wage?
Jeff Bazo is paid that much because he creates a lot of jobs, subs jobs and hundreds if not thousands of industries benefit because of him. He generates a of wealth for his shareholders. Nothing stopping Amazon workers doing the same. They just need to have Jeff Bezos 'skills'.

Many companies could do more. Its based on competition. If I remember correctly, there was a oil boom here in Calgary. It was impossible to find workers. Workers would ditch jobs as another company would pay more and have more benefits.

Wage is dictated by the market. Amazon pays a low wage as the work is low skilled and can be replaced.
Executives are paid a lot by the wealth they create. If they don't create wealth, then shareholders can remove them.

Tony_Tiger is offline  
Old Jul 4th 2021, 11:37 pm
  #26  
BE Enthusiast
 
Tony_Tiger's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 348
Tony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to beholdTony_Tiger is a splendid one to behold
Default Re: Shortage of workers

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
When the businesses crying to the media about labor shortage are paying minimum wage or just above and can't attract labor, and cry about it to the media, they surely seem entitled to me.

Seems market forces are dictating that current minimum wage isn't too high since these businesses are crying about labor shortage and unwilling to pay the market wage for labor.
Market forces don't dictate minimum wage. Politicians do to appease those who cannot understand economics. In return they receive votes, salary, a fat pension and chicken pot pie.

Let me you a real example of how dangerous and inaccurate of what you have written. I will go back to that bar example I gave in a previous post.
When minimum wage was increased to $15 a hour. We can't afford to hold three full time waitresses in the evening. So your most experienced and skilled waitress that gets paid say $17 a hour. They get lets go. You keep one for $15 a hour. The other goes on call part time. The 3rd gets paid less than min wage, no benefits, cash under the table on call.
Lets break it down. The wage was $12 a hour, with a $3 increase x7 hour shift seven days a week. For two employees thats $294 a week, thats $1176 month or $14,112 a year.
Overnight where does that business find that from? The magic money tree?

Not only that, the cost of wholesale goods go up. Your wholesale supplies will increase their prices to pay their staff a 'living wage too. That increase goes onto my business at the end of the month. I have to find that money from somewhere. So prices go up. When that happens, customers will tip less. The staff that work, have to do more, and get less tips.
So im employing less staff, an experienced worker at $17 gets lets go cos she cant compete with the $15 a hour staff behind them, the government gets less tax revenue.

That is the reality of what happens. Worse still the cash under the table employee is exploited. Do you have any idea how many businesses do that now...?
People did not benefit from the wage increase. People lost jobs.
Not only that you think big businesses will take that loss...? Hell no, they have the resources to introduce technology. See the self checkout or self serve kiosks at Walmart and McDonalds...?
Oh wait there is more. Do you have any idea how many girls flew out with nothing from the east coast and took up waitressing jobs here in Calgary? They used that job to fund their studying to acquire more skills and start their careers. They went into dentistry, real estate, IT etc. I got a lot of respect for them. That takes a lot of guts to leave with nothing and take a low paid work on the other side of Canada. But guess what, there are less jobs now. So the next batch coming in or young workers turning 18, we don't have jobs for them. Thats not funny. This is serious.

Not only that, jobs that were $17-20 a hour. Many employers cut those to minimum wage.




Tony_Tiger is offline  
Old Jul 5th 2021, 12:11 am
  #27  
Oscar nominated
 
BristolUK's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Posts: 41,889
BristolUK has a reputation beyond reputeBristolUK has a reputation beyond reputeBristolUK has a reputation beyond reputeBristolUK has a reputation beyond reputeBristolUK has a reputation beyond reputeBristolUK has a reputation beyond reputeBristolUK has a reputation beyond reputeBristolUK has a reputation beyond reputeBristolUK has a reputation beyond reputeBristolUK has a reputation beyond reputeBristolUK has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Shortage of workers

Originally Posted by Tony_Tiger View Post
Executives are paid a lot by the wealth they create. If they don't create wealth, then shareholders can remove them.
So can you explain all these executives getting paid massive bonuses while the companies are having to rely on state handouts?
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...n-pound-bonus-
BristolUK is offline  
Old Jul 5th 2021, 1:25 am
  #28  
BE Forum Addict
 
johnwoo's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2016
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,277
johnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Shortage of workers

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
So can you explain all these executives getting paid massive bonuses while the companies are having to rely on state handouts?
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...n-pound-bonus-
They deserve it, whereas the average low paid worker deserves nothing. "Bloody Marvelous"
19th century economics. half a million homeless in the USA, pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
johnwoo is offline  
Old Jul 5th 2021, 2:06 am
  #29  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 39,756
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Shortage of workers

Originally Posted by Tony_Tiger View Post
Define a living wage?
Jeff Bazo is paid that much because he creates a lot of jobs, subs jobs and hundreds if not thousands of industries benefit because of him. He generates a of wealth for his shareholders. Nothing stopping Amazon workers doing the same. They just need to have Jeff Bezos 'skills'.
Oh that's nonsense. He, like many rich people who did not inherit their wealth, worked hard at an idea, was ruthless in pursuit of it, and had a huge lucky break. In the case of Amazon that break was covid. He doesn't bring any special skills to the game.



dbd33 is offline  
Old Jul 5th 2021, 2:09 am
  #30  
Assimilated Pauper
 
dbd33's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 39,756
dbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond reputedbd33 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Shortage of workers

Originally Posted by johnwoo View Post
They deserve it, whereas the average low paid worker deserves nothing. "Bloody Marvelous"
19th century economics. half a million homeless in the USA, pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

It's not 19th century economics. In the 19th century company owners were paid 100 times what their workers were paid. Not 1,000, or 10,000 times. There's been a real shift in wealth to a tiny minority.
dbd33 is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.