Siouxie

Perhaps if you go and look at some autopsy photos or crash photos of what is clearly identifiable as a 'baby' that has been chopped up and then go and look a '8 week old blob' you will understand the difference.

They don't even show 'this' particular photo on their website - I suspect because if they did they would be shut down.

Sigh......

JonboyE

I said on another thread a while ago that God is the name we give to everything we don't understand, yet.

MikeUK

But my point is.......... we shouldn't

Accept that we don't understand everything,

Don't pass it off to a flawed doctrine run by people for there own profit.....so they can make up the answer (and an answer that suit their agenda)

History has tauaght a few of us this never works...

JonboyE

Quite. This is it in a nutshell.

It does seem ironic that the aetheists are the ones who are 100% certain they are right, and that certainty gives them license to tell others how they should think and act.

SchnookoLoly

Yep.

For foetuses, the chances of survival before 24 weeks are minimal, as it's around 24 weeks that the lungs form. Some babies born as early as 21 weeks have been known to survive, but it's rare.

I can't find any hard rules in Canada about how late an abortion can take place, but I have worked out that it's much tougher to get after 16 weeks. (http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-ca...fo/teens.shtml, http://www.canadiansforchoice.ca/aboutabortion.html, and others).

It's also worth noting that if you have an abortion done, the foetus isn't massacred in the way it sounds like it was pictured in the pamphlet that Siouxie received. http://www.canadiansforchoice.ca/optionsabortion.html describes the two main methods of abortion and what they entail. Strictly speaking, it's a pretty simple procedure.

And like Piff Poff posted, people have all sorts of reasons for aborting. My cousin got pregnant when she was 16 and was in no position to have a child. She chose to abort. Another cousin had one son, healthy and everything, and tried for ages to have a second child. They did conceive but found out the child had Downs. They decided they didn't want to proceed, and aborted. They didn't try again after that, and just went on with life with their one son.

I do agree that abortion shouldn't be used as a method of birth control, which is why proper sexual education is so important, particularly for teens, however sometimes you can do everything right and still get pregnant. As Piff Poff also said, sometimes the father walks out, sometimes the mother's life may be at risk, etc etc etc. It should be a choice, up until a foetus is normally considered to be viable, again somewhere around 22ish weeks, give or take.

We are really going to town on hot-topic threads around here...

iaink

I get it, the image was sickening.

I dont get how you can look at a 20 week old fetus and think "thats sickening" without making the connection to the many more younger blobier fetuses that are terminated and thinking the same thing and wondering why as a society this happens over 50000 times a year here, or how as a nation we dont even seem to have any accurate idea of the numbers.

iaink

Those are stats for survival outside in the cold harsh world (or in a nice warm incubator anyway) which is rather a phony way to look at this procedure because those fetuses being terminated had no plans to go anywhere for a while.

Whats would be a better indicator to me is how many fetuses that make it to say, 5 weeks or 12 weeks would without medical intervention and left in their natural environment make it to full term and a future of diapers and mosquito plagued soccer practices.

I accept that people have all sorts of reasons for choosing to terminate. I accept that its the womans right to decide what happens. I still think that 50-100 thousand procedures a year in Canada should be pause for thought about whether there is sufficient support for people that dont really want to terminate but dont really see any other practical choice.

ExKiwilass

so what.

life is messy.

ExKiwilass

Does it really matter why people have abortions?

Once we go down the 'why' route we're heading down the slippery slidey slope of making judgement calls about other people's lives. Let people (women) abort as they please. If someone is using abortion as a form of birth control, they're probably not fit to be a parent, is my guess. Leave them alone. Be glad there are not yet more abused children in this world.

jossie

I think it's because they have lots of scientific fact to support their views. oops I mean Scientific theory

ExKiwilass

I don't think so. Most athiests i know are very open to having their minds changed by new scientific discoveries.

But they have a point - a lot of really, really bad shit has been done by religious people. Including destroying science and scientists in the past.

SchnookoLoly

Fair enough that they probably aren't fit to be a parent. I just generally think it's careless for someone to be like "well, I won't go on the pill, or use condoms, or any other form of contraception, I'll just abort if I get pregnant." I find that ... I don't know, irresponsible? I can't really articulate why, exactly, it just feels wrong, almost like they are cavalier towards the whole thing.

Obviously this is NOT the same thing in terms of scale/seriousness, but it's sort of like "Well, I won't bother to take care of my new laptop properly, if I break it I'll just buy a new one."

Well, no, maybe take some basic steps to take care of your laptop... the same way to maybe take some basics steps to not get pregnant in the first place if you don't want it.

(Yes, I know it's not the same thing at all, just drawing a parallel in terms of a way of thinking.)

ExKiwilass

right, probably not the sort of person who wants to be/should be parenting. So, yeah.

Almost Canadian

What if the biological father wishes to permit the child to be born (not on the basis of any religious belief, simply that he would like to be a father)? Does the woman's wishes automatically overrule the male's?

What if the male doesn't want the child but the woman does? Does the woman's wishes automatically overrule the male's?

Shirtback

At the risk of sounding trite & trying not to get into the politico-religious debate:

I'm pro-choice. I do not, can not & will not question the reasons any individual woman might choose to make such a choice.

I respect those who do not agree with my POV.

I very strongly object to the tactics Siouxie experienced. I would have gone on a serious rant if I had received such a document in my mailbox.

S