Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

Bit like saying the wedding ceremony is an anachronism and there are genuine reasons to object to it. :p

It's a voluntary thing, if you don't want to do it, don't do it. Of course it is ceremonial and everything involving ceremony can be seen as a waste of time, if you look at everything as being purely practical.

And the Lord said unto Satan, man does not live by bread alone. Luke 4:4

Human beings are a bit more sophisticated than the purely practical.

Aren't nation states themselves an anachronism?

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

Quite different though because you can still get married and choose to omit the archaic stuff.

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

Or you can choose not to get married.

The whole thing may be symbolic but sometimes symbolism is important.

Having taken an oath to the Queen in the military, it definitely was important and legally binding.

You make it a big deal to reinforce in the minds of people that it is a big deal - because it is.

Do you want for example someone serving on a jury who didn't take an oath seriously when they're in a setting where oaths are extremely important?

Would you trust someone taking an oath of office if they made a stink about the oath of citizenship?

Going on about the Queen as a person I always think is pointless, from a legal standpoint it's do with the constitutional role, she's the head of state but all the people underneath her have essentially delegated powers under Acts of Parliament she assented to. What you're pledging is to follow the rule of law.

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

So why not just have that?

It would be interesting to see what would happen if pledging loyalty to the queen was made part of a Canadian passport application.

I mean, if people didn't like it they could simply not apply for a passport. :sneaky:

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

That's a good point. So wouldn't it be so much more straight forward and indeed, effective to simply pledge to follow the rule of law?

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

One of the laws being: that to obtain citizenship, one must pledge allegiance to the Queen:p

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

Because like I said, some things need symbolism, this is one of them.

Otherwise it would end up being like this: http://www.thecomedynetwork.ca/Shows...Package=135821

(Watch clip 2 of 4, hit the move forward button).

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

Couldn't see the content (unfortunately). Somehow the commercials streamed perfectly. Funny that. ;)

The problem I see with the "symbolism" is that for the non-believers, pledging allegiance to someone they view with suspicion/derision or whatever, will have the effect of undermining the pledge. For example if were asked to pledge to do something in the name of God, for me that pledge would be meaningless as I don't believe in the old fella; if it were to pledge to follow some set of principles, I would take it slightly more seriously. Perhaps I am splitting hairs here, and as it happens I'm not anti-monarchy, but I do see the argument against a royal pledge that some make.

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

I agree.

If I had to say the whole pledge then I would, but if I could leave out the queen part (hey, there's an idea; make it optional :thumbup: ), the oath would actually mean something to me and I could imagine taking pride in it.

If I couldn't leave it out then I could still take pride in achieving citizenship, and probably the event, but certainly not the oath. I would resent having to say it.

But anyway, enough of my reasonable attitude and back to my normal line....... I didn't vote for her!

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

I found it a little odd to make the oath, given my background, but it didn't bother me. It's just a formality. I really don't see why it is an issue for people.

I found singing the national anthem odder. The anglo version is daft, considering the circumstances of the occasion. I sang/mangled the franco version.

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

I think the point I am making perhaps badly is that the Queen is a symbol, representing a system of law, which is why at the start of British Acts of Parliament it says: Be it enacted and declared by the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty...

I'm sure she has no idea what the law means or even says most of the time. Who she is or what she does as an individual doesn't really matter. It's just a way of describing a legal system that has existed for centuries.

Everyone keeps going on about the Australian oath, but the New Zealand oath is basically identical to the Canadian one. As so is Jamaica's. But at the end of the day even with the Australian oath the Queen is still the head of state.

All I can say is that's it a hell of a lot simpler than the American oath.

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

All I can say is that's it a hell of a lot simpler than the American oath.

You mean like I pledge allegiance to the flag and will go kick ass in any country you send me to and will buy as many guns as I legally can own sort of thing?

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

If these people are so bothered by the oath, they can publicly recant the portion where they swear allegiance to the Queen afterwards, much like this guy (last paragraph). Nobody is going to come along and take their Citizenship away if they did that.

But, as others have said, Canada is very generous with it's Citizenship compared to other countries and having to swear an oath is not really much to ask. I get the impression it's really just vestigial at this point.

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

Is it true that you can't claim your pension if you haven't taken citizenship? Sounds wrong but this is what a PR of 40+ years told me and said she would need to get it before she retired...:unsure:

Re: PR's don't want to pledge
 

Citizen or legal resident I believe.