Paul_Shepherd

I think that's a matter of opinion....almost 52% didn't want it...so my understanding of modern Europe isn't what you can call embarassing....we just view it differently.....

Shard

How you voted is irrelvant. I'm simply pointing out the limitations of your vision of Europe as a collection of discrete countries.

Shard

As Bristol repeatedly tries to explain, it's 37%, and as DBD has pointed out, that figure is likely lower due to shifting democraphics.

DaveLovesDee

There are many countries where they have pre-entry clearance programs for incoming travellers who don't need a visa. The US, Canada and Turkey are the ones I can readily think of, and I've applied previously for the Canadian and Turkish ones. Pre-clearance allows the host country to ensure they find as many potential passenger security risks before they even board the plane. It's common sense for the EU to implement a similar system of checks.

That's an interesting point coming from someone who lives in a country that was a collection of separate independent British colonies until 1867. Effectively, the Provinces and Territories still run most of their affairs, and the federal Canadian government makes rules in limited areas. It's not much different generally from the individual states and federal US government, who've been doing the same for nearly 100 years longer. Isn't Mexico run along similar lines too?

What exactly is/would be wrong with a federal EU government made up of representatives of each member state, governing with the consent of their populations? It works well in North America.

DaveLovesDee

Almost 52% of those who voted. And the rest either couldn't vote, or didn't feel strongly enough in favour of change to vote for it. So effectively, those count towards maintaining the status quo.

Almost Canadian

Unless one is trying to get a pipeline built, or allow a wine producer in one Province to be able to sell that wine in a neighbouring Province, or allow power generated in one Province to be able to flow to another jurisdiction.

As you are likely aware, those involved with the drafting of the Canadian constitution were attempting to avoid what they perceived as the mistake the US constitution made by giving too much power to the states. Unfortunately, the Privy Council f*&ked up the Court case and Canada now has the same problem that the US does. Ask Trudeau how easy it is to impose a national carbon plan, against the wishes of the Provinces.

DaveLovesDee

And I think the states/provinces having more power than the federal government is a good thing overall. So what's the issue that people like Paul S has regarding a similar system for the EU with member states having more power than the EU? Or should federal governments be able to overrule them?

Paul_Shepherd

In response to your first reply the pre clearance check.....why does being part of the EU not require a pre entry clearance, but the same country that is no longer part of the EU suddenly need one? Does the UK suddenly become a security risk after it leaves the EU? or am I not understanding this correctly?


As for a federal EU government and comparing it to Canada and its early colonial days, my reply I gave to Expatrick when he tried to compare a European federal government to the United States....both examples are like comparing apples to oranges. Below is a quote from an earlier post of mine post #609 which was my reply to Expatrick trying to compare Europe to the United states and why I don't think a European federal government would work.


"There are marginal differences between the states of the US, but comparing that to the differing cultures of each country in Europe is like comparing apples and oranges. The Untied States has grown together as a country, because it was born as one country....and in comparitive terns is a new country. Europe and the countries and the individual cultures they possess in comparison is ancient.....1000+ years. How can those cultures be expected to harmonious after less than 50 years....what suits Germany certainly wont suit Greece....their culture is the polar opposite"


Both Canada and the US have grown together as one country from their colonial begingings.... and realistically speaking all of Canada doesn't get along...in particular Quebec....they keep making sounds of wanting to separate...why....because Quebec feel they have diffrerent cultural background than the rest of Canada, the federal government has tried to appease them many times, but that resentment always seems to be under the surface. How can you force the ancient countries of Europe under one government and expect it to work for so many different countries.

dbd33

You don't have to force them to join a union of states, they've chosen to do so, and you don't have to expect it to work, you can see it working.

Paul_Shepherd

But I do think society are divided on that....just like they are with right and left wing politics.

DaveLovesDee

As I suspect you haven't actually looked into this, as doing so would help give you the answers to make informed questions, EU rules differentiate between EU member states (which have certain membership priviliges), and non-EU or Third-Country (who don't. The UK is leaving the EU. Had it remained a member, it could expect to continue reaping the benefits of same, but as an non-EU country, it won't get that.

Horseshit. Ask Native Americans and the First Nations of Canada if they grew together with those who followed.

Because politicians want it that way, and their pet media facilitates that. If we're arguing with each other, we're not fighting the government.

dbd33

Mr. Johnson described in a manner I thought fair and entertaining:

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net...23&oe=5DF925BA

Paul_Shepherd

Ok Dave, I can see you are wound up about this with the use of your language. The first nations are a different topic altogether….I was leaving that out of the equation just for the simplicity of this discussion.

I am not the only one that feels the way I do, no matter which way you look at it there is still a large percentage that don’t want the EU in its present form anyway..

Personally I didn’t vote anyway as I live in Canada and thought it would be unfair. I am not an uneducated or a stupid person, its simply the way I see things, as I have mentioned many times before, this is a political issue, and people are never going to agree on politics, an individual’s political view comes from deep within and is normally formed from a fairly early age based in their early life and upbringing....that was my experience anyway, its got nothing to do with being informed or uninformed, although I do accept that views can mellow over time as you go through different life experiences. Maybe we should agree to disagree.

Shard

Yes, a kind of hysteria exists around Brexit now, and BoJo is capitalising on it. Good snippet, apart from the unnecessarily crude ending. She would not be amused.

DaveLovesDee

You seriously think I'm wound up about it. How sweet. What part of the language I used led you to that false conclusion?

Your post ignored the history of both the US and Canada prior to European settlers, and to say it was 'for simplicity' still ignores the facts, either through ignorance or design. The fact still remains that the original inhabitants of the land were driven aside.

How large a percentage? How many of those believe the lies that the EU is responsible for most of the UK's problems, when in fact, most of these are down to UK government decisions, both Labour and Tory. How many have actually taken the time to do their own research on what they've been told is wrong with the EU?

I'm not assuming you're uneducated or stupid, but I could assume you're too lazy to actually check the truth for yourself. You seem like you've made up your mind based on what you've read elsewhere, and you're afraid to find out you may be wrong. At least, that's my opinion. And that ties in with your point about political views formed at an early age.

Brexit is a political issue, you're right, and I'll readily admit you are. But the nature of UK politics is divisiveness. The House of Commons was deliberately laid out in an us v them layout of two sets of opposing benches. Constrast that with the EU Parliament and the Welsh Senedd, where the elected representatives sit in a roughly 3/4 semi-circle as political groupings, but each group has to work with the others to get Parliamentary business done. Whereas in the UK, it's almost always one side trying to stop the other.

We may disagree, but Brexit isn't a simple matter of leaving on X date, deal or no deal. People of all political persuasions voted Leave and voted Remain, yet it's the hardcore Leavers who were put in charge of our leaving. And there are Brexiters of deal and others of no deal on both Labour and Tory benches, and until those MPs and the public work together, nothing about Brexit will change.

Leavers and Remainers fighting each other won't fix Brexit, finding common ground will. Neither will agreeing to disagree. I accept you guys have concerns, and the EU isn't perfect, so how do we get from here to there together, because staying or leaving, it'll be all of us affected.